Add me to the growing list of those who've experienced "kayak angst." To preface, I've not yet ever suffered from sea sickness, even during a blow one winter night on the Sea of Cortez. We were aboard an old fishing boat with a diesel-fired stove. But for two of us, the steak and onions sent everyone to the rail that night. Several people have observed that it seems to be linked to sea sickness and the inability to discern one's relationship to stationary objects, and I'd concur. The only time I've ever experienced this feeling to any degree aboard larger boats is when I've been below for a period. I think the fact that one "wears" a kayak, rather than sits on one, also contributes to the condition. You're really within the air-water interface. The one time I experienced this condition was off Point Pinos, the southern lip of Monterey Bay. Some of our calmest weather comes between storms in winter. Gone are the reliable northwesterlies of summer. As temperatures fall and the ocean grows cooler, it becomes clearer too -- fewer little critters floating around. It was overcast that day and the sea was glassy. As we paddled further from shore, we passed the outer edge of the kelp forest. Peering down into it was like looking into a giant aquarium. When we got to open water, we encountered a huge number of ctenophores. There must have been millions of them. Also known as "comb jellies," these jellyfish-like animals are clear, and roughly the size and shape of cucumbers. Running in longitudinal rows down there lenth are short cillia -- tiny hairs that seem to move in waves. As they move, light refracts off of them in a rainbow of colors. Between the overcast sky and the consequent lack of contrast, the clear, calm sea, and the animals floating through its depths, I became quite aware of a sensation of falling -- down or up, it was hard to tell. My partner shared the feeling. Capsize wasn't a worry, since we were in a fairly stable double. In short, I found the sensation absolutely wonderful, given those particular circumstances. Talk about an LSD moment... Mark Paxton Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Mark wrote: <<Add me to the growing list of those who've experienced "kayak angst."<< Me too me too! Well, not really "angst" - but a sometimes even pleasant "altered state" now and then. and he added... >>As temperatures fall and the ocean grows cooler, it becomes clearer too -- fewer little critters floating around. It was overcast that day and the sea was glassy. As we paddled further from shore, we passed the outer edge of the kelp forest. Peering down into it was like looking into a giant aquarium.<< These are the conditions in which I've experienced some dizziness, and I think the clarity of the water had a great deal to do with the sensations. Being able to sense depth so clearly, places the paddler in more of a "flying" position than merely as a "surface traveler", and I think this contributes to a feeling of vertigo - along with the subtle movement of a calm but present swell. I would never want to avoid these conditions though, as it's wonderful to watch all the sea life in the clear water, and to enjoy the "flying" feeling. Though it hasn't happened much in these same conditions, I've also experienced some disorientation in thick fog combined with calm seas - especially when the sun is bright above the thick surface fog, creating a bright "neon" feel to the fog that engulfs me. One thing that I haven't seen mentioned here, that tends to help me, is sound. If stationary land masses, or definitive breaking wave action or chop aren't available for sensory input, there is often still some sound to be heard, and points of reference can be gained by listening. Though sound is of course a standard navigational aid, I've also found it useful to establish a personal sense of "horizon" and/or "surface space" - even if the sounds are moving (ie: birds, seals, etc.). In true sensory deprivation situations, even slapping a paddle on the water surface can help to break the "trance". In the very calm conditions that seem to produce this dizziness (I hesitate to call it "angst", as I've never really felt a true angst, but instead, rather enjoyed these "altered state" experiences), I've sometimes just closed my eyes, and allowed movement and sound to be my primary senses for short, or even longer periods. Even sometimes in some pretty good chop, if I'm in familiar circumstances, just for fun and practice, I'll spend long periods with my eyes closed, relying on all my senses besides sight to navigate, sense balance, etc. Well, I think it's fun anyway. If you're in familiar waters, and you're close enough to land to hear foghorns and other familiar sounds, and you know where they're coming from, you can create an "acoustic horizon" for yourself. I guess what I'm saying is that it seems to require a very few, very specific circumstances (sources of sensory input and/or lack thereof) to create these "altered states" - be it a feeling of vertigo or dizziness, or the more severe "angst", and that by using as many senses that are available to you, you can expand your awareness beyond those few specific "angst contributing factors" to lessen their very specific effect. I should stop now before I begin to confuse myself and fall off my chair. Melissa *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
When I explained this thread to my wife , Wendy, last night , she just snorted, and said "It's like flying, that's what it feels like to me, paddling in the bow. In still water with the sky mirrored in the water, to me , it is like flying..." I do think , in this entire thread , the common conditions involve 1) still water 2) light reflected off of the water 3) a paddler sitting low enough on the water, with limited visual clues, or fixed distractions 4) and a sense of being "suspended" over something, which can easily translate into the feeling of falling. Some one else used the expression "agoraphobia:" which is the fear of being in large open spaces. But I think, the sensation comes mostly from conditions which strip the mind of the accepted visual cues , which leads to "disorientation". Eh... that feeling can be viewed as either frightening, euphoric, or just plain peculiar. If you are of a mystical turn of mind, the "vertigo" is of a spiritual nature. A pragmatist is more like to wonder "What's happening here"? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Melissa Reese" <melissa_at_bonnyweeboaty.net> Sent: Tuesday, November 07, 2000 2:31 PM Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Feeling dizzy? [many snips] > These are the conditions in which I've experienced some dizziness, > and I think the clarity of the water had a great deal to do with the > sensations. Being able to sense depth so clearly, places the paddler > in more of a "flying" position than merely as a "surface traveler", > and I think this contributes to a feeling of vertigo - along with the > subtle movement of a calm but present swell. I would never want to > avoid these conditions though, as it's wonderful to watch all the sea > life in the clear water, and to enjoy the "flying" feeling. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Mark wrote: <<In short, I found the sensation absolutely wonderful, given those particular circumstances. Talk about an LSD moment...>> Rich wrote: ]<<It makes you feel "dizzy". It also feels (in my subjective opinion) intensely pleasurable. There is a sensation of no longer being "apart" (on) from the water and (under) the sky, instead there is an intense feeling of "oneness and inseparability" from the environment. Euphoria, almost. But even as a young child I remember the same sensation lying on my back looking at the cumulus clouds drifting across the deep blue summer sky, on a hot afternoon, and a belief that I was "falling" somehow upwards.>> I'm going to pop back into this for a moment. I've experienced sea sickness and find just watching the shore for a few moments clears that up. It is not a nice feeling. What they guys describe above feels like a really very different thing. For me it was a plesant feeling I had control of if I neded to pay more attention to my paddling. I don't recall feeling unstable, though I recognize the faling upwards feeling. That may be a function of the level of disassoiation one experiences. After a fashion it is a metative state. A bit of what I know as a "soft eyes" state, like Rich's daydream state where you don't focus on any one thing but are just "aware" of your surroundings. For me I'm usually reminded of the amazing nature of what I'm doing out there in the water in this unimaginable craft. The unity or connectedness I'm feeling and the unity, the lack of boundries is a fantastic experience. Part of WHY I paddle. The circumstances are usually as observed, where there is little or no distinction between sea and sky, there are just melting shades of blue, gray, and white. It reminds me of a sensory depravation chamber because there is no light source, no sound except the paddle moveing, and physical sensations are selective. I feel as safe and comfortable as I could in my living room. I feel the physical motion of my arms, head, body, legs, feet. The texture of the wood in my hands is the most solid feeling I have, the rest of it is just there. It is a fragile state. I don't need to resist it because as soon as I focus my attention it is uaually moved to the back. My sea sickness usually comes from watching the water too long as I paddle and when it is choppy I have to look to a more stable focus or I become increasingly ill and unstable. That is the out of control feeling that leaves me fearful I'll go over, one of the reasons I don't get out of sight of land. I am wondering how much the two are related other than by the lack of orentation/stability for the eyes. I'm usually totally still or moving only with my own effforts in one case and in the other I'm up and down in patterns I can't anticipate from one moment to another. Joan Spinner *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Joan and All I have experienced the sensation while paddling, also. We have all experienced the same thing at one time or another if we think about it. Let's stop for a second and examine common situations that most have had this experience in. Situations that generate a similar feeling: I am sure that while sitting at a stop light or in traffic and he car next to you moved forward you caught it in your peripheral vision that you may have experienced the sensation that you are moving when you foot was already firmly planted on the brake. First reaction: Push the brake even harder. For those of you that are pilots you will remember someone teaching you recovery from an unusual attitude (not to be confused with bad moods). You are told to close your eyes and look down. The instructor then makes all kinds of control movements and then puts you into a stall or other benign situation. You are told to look up, take the controls and recover. Regardless of what you are feeling you have to determine which way is up and down. I have also experienced it when the ground wasn't visible and the clouds and sky become the same. Your body tells you that one way is up and your instruments tell what the correct way is. Don't trust your body, it is usually dead wrong in these cases! Divers may have also experienced when they can't tell which way is up or down due to limited visibility and/or darkness except for the direction that their bubbles are going. The common thread in all of this is: Spatial Disorientation. The mind looses the normal visual indicators of up and down and/or left and right. A gray day when the sky and water appear to melt into one another and our body is still experiencing the effects of gravity pulling us down. Combine with the motion of the swells, waves, etc. and you have Spatial Disorientation and vertigo. Add to this recipe a bit of anxiety and one can become extremely disoriented and dizzy, which just adds fuel to the fire. Something similar, without the feeling of dizziness or vertigo is: Autokenisis. This happens particularly at night when we stare at a stationary light off in the distance. Suddenly, we realize it is moving. Maybe Left to Right, Up to Down or who knows. It in fact is a stationary bright single light source such as a street light or a flood light over a dock. It isn't moving at all, but our mind experiences autokenisis and fools us. For these and other strange visual happenings take a look at this web site: http://www.uh60studyhall.com/Nights/illusions.htm. We can exercise control of our mind and create a means to overcome the feeling if it is extremely uncomfortable. Just knowing what it is may help some of us overcome fears and reluctance to paddle to where land isn't visible. Fred At 02:46 PM 11/7/2000 -0500, JSpinner_at_aol.com wrote: >That is the out of control feeling that >leaves me fearful I'll go over, one of the reasons I don't get out of sight >of land. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Fred T, CA Kayaker wrote: > > Situations that generate a similar feeling: > > I am sure that while sitting at a stop light or in traffic and he car next > to you moved forward you caught it in your peripheral vision that you may > have experienced the sensation that you are moving when you foot was > already firmly planted on the brake. First reaction: Push the brake even > harder. > > The common thread in all of this is: Spatial Disorientation. Another place for spatial disorientation, at least for me, is welding metal (typically oxy-fuel or arc(stick) welding). Very intense visual focus and concentration on moving the torch or arc correctly with limited visibility (darkened glass to protect the eyes from the intense light). I freqently have sensations that the ground is tilting, legs moving, etc. while welding. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
All these varied responses to my original vertigo? posting are fascinating. This is stuff I've rarely seen discussed. However, I've never been sea sick. I do have a problem that comes up when I'm hiking and scrambling up and down and over rocks and ledges. It's very hard for me to jump across chasms, however narrow. I think it's part of the vertigo package, since I freeze when I see the deep space receding. I too have experience pleasant sensations of floating over clear water. But the tension and fear I feel on the surfski in open flat water doesn't compare. I'm reading it all avidly. Keep it coming! Barbara *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
What all you folks are describing are various symptoms of what is usually called motions sickness. Though this is a bit of a misnomer since you can experience this even when there is little or no motion at all. I have experienced this in a number of contexts and it is easy to solve if you know what the cause is. It does not happen to me often but I know what to do about it when it does occur. Basically it can be brought down to a confusion of the senses; if your senses "see" motion but your inner ear does not feel it, or if you feel motion but do not see it, you will experience this confusion and the resulting vertigo. The confusion can also come from sound or physical contact through your skin as well. The quickest and easiest way to solve this problem is stop the confusion as quickly as possible: either add a visual point of reference that will show you the motion you feel, or cut off one of the other sensations, usually by just closing your eyes (not always practical). Let me give you examples: Once when sailing along at a good rate with some friends I went below deck to get something out of my gear bag. After leaving the visual reference of the horizon and the surface, I quickly became very nauseous and disoriented, nearly vomiting. Realizing what had happened, I still felt the movement of the boat but could not see it, I just closed my eyes for a few seconds and the feeling quickly pasted. I moved around by "blinking" my eyes open for a fraction of a second to see where my next step or hand hold is, until I found my gear bag. I knew where my stuff was so I simply found what I wanted by feeling around in the bag with my eyes closed. Then returned topside the same way, no problem. Once when riding a bike rapidly in heavy traffic between cars I was moving faster than the cars as I came up to the light, and they move rapidly away after the light. I suddenly lost the sensation of motion it became difficult to balance since I could not tell how fast I was going relative to the ground. I just kept my eyes on the road just in front of the front tire so I can see the motion. I would quickly glance around to verify the location of the traffic every few seconds, but kept my eyes "at rest" on the road in front of me. Once when hiking I was crossing a swollen creek by fighting my way between the branches of a large fallen tree. The branches made great hand holds to stabilize me, but there were other branches that reached down into the fast moving whitewater only a few feet below the trunk. The tree was vibrating because of this and the air was filled with mist and the noise of the water. When I got to the middle I looked down to take the next step, all of my vision, in front of me and my peripheral was full of the moving water going sideways, along with the noise and the vibrations, I suddenly could not tell whether the water was moving under me, or if I was flying sideways over the water on some kind of magic flying tree. It was a very amusing sensation and I was not in any real danger but I realized something else at that moment: my whole body was completely "locked up". I could not force it to move no matter how much I tried. This was a sensation I never experienced and I have done all kinds of high speed sports and big wall climbing, it was fortunate I can coolly examine what was happening without immediate danger. I again realized the sensory overload, and the confusion of the site, sound and "feel" of the vibrating tree, all added up to paralyzed my body. But I had a problem, I could not go forward or back, I could not even jump off the log and slosh to shore (the water was only about knee deep, but it looked cold and I did not want to get soaked), I was frozen right there in the middle of the creek on that tree. My first thought was to just cut off the sensations: but if I look to the far bank, I could not see where to place my feet on the slippery trunk, if I closed my eyes to stop visual input I could not see where to step next either, if I could move my hands enough (which I could not) to let go to stop the vibrations through my hands and cover my ears, I could slip and fall off the wet trunk. I closed my eyes to think for a second, I could move now but I dare not take a step, so it occurred to me to get down on my hands and knees. By placing my face close enough to the trunk (about 3 inches away), the size of the trunk, my arms and the branches blocked my peripheral vision enough I could crawl the rest of the way. I felt foolish because it probably looked silly or like I was scared. I was not, just stuck because of the sensory overload. I was skiing down mount Baker once (after climbing the summit), and that large featureless snow dome near the summit, a low cloud ceiling and flat lighting made it difficult to see the humps and bumps in the snow. There were a few large crevasses below so there was a small danger of falling in one, you had to keep you eyes down the slope to locate them before you came up on them too quickly. Doing that however meant you could not see the local variations on the snow you were skiing on. This same confusion of the senses stated to occur, it became disorienting and very difficult to ski down. It would usually occur after you pick up some speed. I found it made a big difference to put on polarized sunglasses to increase the contrast and move my eyes constantly back and forth between the snow in front of my skis, and down slope to keep a watch out for the crevasses below. We made it down from the summit this way in only about 15 to 20 minutes (it had taken us six hours to get to the summit). Another time a confusion of the senses occurred when we were on a hiking trip and I became very dizzy and disoriented when I was not moving at all! I always feel comfortable knowing which way is North, where I am going and being comfortable identifying the terrain by studying a topo map before we go, and making spot checks along the way. I have a very good sense of direction and have never been really lost, I have been way off route more than few times and done my share of bushwhacking, but I always knew where I was relative to where we camped, were we parked, etc. and how we got there. Well one time we were on our way out I did not notice when I studied the map at the last break that the trail we were on forked. The branch we wanted simply curved northward and followed down the valley paralleling the river, to where we parked a few days before. But there was another trail that had gradually turned back southward up a nearly level side canyon that I had not noticed on the map. Moving rapidly down the big valley and into the taller trees at the lower elevations some how we missed the fork, probably because we just were not looking for it, though I am usually observant of such things, we just missed it and did not notice that we had taken it and were moving more southward. Eventually the trail moved along side the creek coming out of the side valley, it immediately struck me the water should have been flowing in the direction we were walking, not against it. I did not see how this could happen and I took out my compass to see which direction it was flowing, we were headed North (I thought) going down the valley, and so should the water. When I saw the compass pointing almost 180 degrees the other way, my first though was something was wrong with it, I checked my partner's compass, put metal next to it to make sure it was working, etc. Well as soon as I was satisfied it was working right I became very dizzy, nauseous and the ground was swirling under me. Again I had never experienced this and it was only my grip on reality that kept me from panicking. I had heard of people get lost, disoriented, panic, dump their gear and run in any direction, sometimes off a cliff. I thought that always sounded silly, how could not knowing where you are cause you to panic and lose your mind if you are not in any immediate danger? All the survival books instruct you to "not panic" if you realized you were lost. Now I under stood that better, it is not a voluntary response, but an overwhelming reactions to suddenly not knowing where you are (something that has not happened to me before). The problem was all my mind told me I knew where I was, heading north down river, but all my senses told me I was heading south up river, impossible. My mind said that what I saw just could not be happening. The ground finally stopped spinning when I forced myself to study the map more closely. As soon as I noticed the side trail, and realized we inadvertently walked up it and did not notice, the universe stopped swirling around. I used to live in southern California and I would be amused at the shear panic and terror that would grip some people when they felt an earthquake every once in a while (the Los Angeles basin can have over a hundred measurable quakes a month, but nearly all are too small for most people to notice) when a larger one occurs. I guess something not rational, buried deep within our emotions, says that the solid earth JUST SHOULD NOT MOVE. And when it does it throws some people emotionally out of whack, often disorienting them and causing panic. I had this disorienting sense of motion when on a river rafting trip once. Looking down at the moving water I would get this strange feeling of not knowing if the canyon walls were moving past us or we were moving past them. The feeling goes away when you keep an eye on the river bank and you can see the motion you sense with your body. I imagine the same thing can happen in a WW kayak though I do not have enough experience with this to know. Most people as a passenger in a car will get sick if they put a book in the lap and try to read it. A trick I use so I can read in a car with out getting motion sickness is to hold the item I am reading up in front of me. This way I can see the motion of the car in my peripheral vision. If you put it on your lap you will not see the movement, but your body will feel it. Often people will get motion sickness if they watch a big screen movie with fast moving sense. They see motion but do not feel it. I could go on but all these examples reinforce the idea that if you feel motion but do not see it, or see motion and do not feel it, you have the potential to get nauseous, disoriented and even panic. When you realize this is happening you must take action to stop the confusion of the input: either need to stop one of the inputs, or you need to add input so you will see a point of reference to stop the confusion. I would think that in hazy calm conditions the easy and simplest thing to do is to splash water ahead of your kayak with each stoke as far as you can and keep you eyes on it. It will give you a sense of your forward speed and the shape of surface of the water. Adding polarizing amber colored glasses to increase contrast would also help. Simply using Dramamine or one the other motion sickness medications would work too since it suppresses this part of your nervous system, though I would not advocate that unless you were real desperate. Also the more you expose yourself to this condition the fast your body will adjust to it, sailors used to call it getting you "sea legs". Unfortunately with family and jobs you can often not spend enough time as you would like in your kayak. Peter *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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