Matt wrote: <<<< Try tightening the shock cord that goes around the cockpit rim. Be sure and loosen it again if the spraydeck may be used by novices later. Call Rich at Snapdragon (425)957-3575. I'm sure he could tell you (and make you one just like it). He was one of Chris's sponsors. Chris told me he did the whole trip with the one spraydeck so it held up well. >>>> Like, if it didn't, he's gonna say something negative about one of his sponsors? Oh Matt, you are like so yesterday. <<<< An implosion bar is a bar that is inside a closed pocket across the front of the deck. Its ends rest on either side of the cockpit rim about 1/2 way from your belly to the front of the cockpit. It helps prevent the deck from being forced into the cockpit enough by a breaker to pull the shock cord off the coaming rim. >>>> Hey Matt and gang, I know some kayaks that need an implosion bar under their vacuum bagged fiberglass decks :-) <<<< I have thought of (but never tried) putting a plastic or aluminum plate that fits around the front of the cockpit rim and supports the spraydeck against implosion. It would become a hard plate filling in the front of the cockpit area. It would essentially convert a large cockpit into a small cockpit. At least until you release the font of the spraydeck and then pushed it forward or lift it off the rim to remove it. Maybe a knee tube could be built into this "Ocean Cockpit Conversion" device too. Just think Doug, all the benefits of a small cockpit for those who think they need it, but few of the disadvantages. >>>> Yes Matt, an Ocean Cockpit can be a little harder to get out of quickly as you have implied in the past. Yes, I agree, you are right -- through hell and high water, I've never been sucked out of my Nordkapp...yeap, it's definitely harder to come out of! I love it when we agree! :-) But I feel a bit ripped off -- not the skirt (that never happens), but the fact that I can't indulge my consumptive technoweenie gearhead fetish for spending money on new paddling stuff, as I don't need one of these wonderful implosion bars that all the big-name paddlers are having to use. Well, I like my Ocean Cockpit (have I mentioned that to the list before?). Maybe I _don't_ need it, but aesthetically, they look better on a Greenland style sea boat -- and funny, I wonder where they get the name "Ocean Cockpit" from anyway? Alas my friend, I shall now keep my bias cockpit-fit hyperbole to myself until I get my web site up and running, whereupon I shall quote your previous recommendations for the Ocean Cockpit. PS My recollection with Chris prior to his NZ departure, was that he wanted to keep using the Nordkapp for a number of superiority reasons including speed and seating security, but that the development of sciatica put pressure on him (forgive the pun) to switch to the Romany (which he said turned out to be a surprizingly an increadibly great boat on his pre-trip training). And as far as his lack of a skeg or rudder with respect to your prior comment about Chris "still completing" the NZ trip, didn't someone on this list mention a while back that Chris said he would have "sold his heart" for a skeg or rudder. PPS One thing I do know: my small cockpit along with the inner latex-rand Phoenix sprayskirt, keeps me from coming out of the cockpit into the water, and moreover, keeps the water 100% out of the cockpit, respectively. That's my watertight argument. And off the net, <http://www.tep.ei.tum.de/~steve/canoe/sea.kayaking.faq.html>, a small quote: How should the boat fit? Another thing to consider is cockpit size. A larger cockpit can make it easier for a person to enter and exit a boat. A smaller cockpit is preferred by some because it is considered more watertight. Copyright 1996, Todd Leigh C' ya on the sea, DL *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
See comments in text below. Matt Broze http://www.marinerkayaks.com > -----Original Message----- > From: Doug Lloyd [mailto:dlloyd_at_telus.net] > Sent: Sunday, January 21, 2001 12:09 AM > To: PaddleWise_at_paddlewise.net; Matt Broze > Subject: Cockpit Yada Yada > > > Matt wrote: > > <<<< > Try tightening the shock cord that goes around the cockpit rim. Be sure > and > loosen it again if the spraydeck may be used by novices later. > Call Rich at Snapdragon (425)957-3575. I'm sure he could tell you (and > make > you one just like it). He was one of Chris's sponsors. Chris told me he > did > the whole trip with the one spraydeck so it held up well. > >>>> > > Like, if it didn't, he's gonna say something negative about one of his > sponsors? Oh Matt, you are like so yesterday. I don't know, but suspect that sponsorship meant he got his spraydeck for free. I'm sure if he wasn't happy with it he would have gotten something else as soon as feasible. Chris strikes me as an extremely honest individual. I think you owe him an apology. > > <<<< > An implosion bar > is a bar that is inside a closed pocket across the front of the deck. > Its > ends rest on either side of the cockpit rim about 1/2 way from your > belly to > the front of the cockpit. It helps prevent the deck from being forced > into > the cockpit enough by a breaker to pull the shock cord off the coaming > rim. > >>>> > > Hey Matt and gang, I know some kayaks that need an implosion bar under > their vacuum bagged fiberglass decks :-) I have heard of someone who spent several times more money repairing his mostly chop-strand mat kayak than it cost new. Different kayaks each have there place and limitations. Reasonable folks make lots of trade-offs to best fit their perceived needs. > > <<<< > I have thought of (but never tried) putting a plastic or aluminum plate > that > fits around the front of the cockpit rim and supports the spraydeck > against > implosion. It would become a hard plate filling in the front of the > cockpit > area. It would essentially convert a large cockpit into a small cockpit. > At > least until you release the font of the spraydeck and then pushed it > forward > or lift it off the rim to remove it. Maybe a knee tube could be built > into > this "Ocean Cockpit Conversion" device too. Just think Doug, all the > benefits of a small cockpit for those who think they need it, but few of > the > disadvantages. > >>>> > > Yes Matt, an Ocean Cockpit can be a little harder to get out of quickly > as you have implied in the past. Yes, I agree, you are right -- through > hell and high water, I've never been sucked out of my Nordkapp...yeap, > it's definitely harder to come out of! I love it when we agree! :-) > > But I feel a bit ripped off -- not the skirt (that never happens), but > the fact that I can't indulge my consumptive technoweenie gearhead > fetish for spending money on new paddling stuff, as I don't need one of > these wonderful implosion bars that all the big-name paddlers are having > to use. Rich didn't think Chris really needed it but why take a chance. If it might help it was probably worth taking. > > Well, I like my Ocean Cockpit (have I mentioned that to the list > before?). Maybe I _don't_ need it, but aesthetically, they look better > on a Greenland style sea boat -- and funny, I wonder where they get the > name "Ocean Cockpit" from anyway? Well it might just be marketing hype. More likely it came about to distinguish it from the huge "sprint" style cockpit which was the only other choice on an early Nordkapp. > > Alas my friend, I shall now keep my bias cockpit-fit hyperbole to myself > until I get my web site up and running, whereupon I shall quote your > previous recommendations for the Ocean Cockpit. Huh? You talking to me? I don't recall such a recommendation. > > PS My recollection with Chris prior to his NZ departure, was that he > wanted to keep using the Nordkapp for a number of superiority reasons > including speed and seating security, but that the development of > sciatica put pressure on him (forgive the pun) to switch to the Romany > (which he said turned out to be a surprizingly an increadibly great boat > on his pre-trip training). And as far as his lack of a skeg or rudder > with respect to your prior comment about Chris "still completing" the NZ > trip, didn't someone on this list mention a while back that Chris said > he would have "sold his heart" for a skeg or rudder. Haven't you been suffering back problems lately Doug? Looks like with the switch Chris no longer suffers from sciatica. Maybe the "ocean" cockpit is a cause of sciatica. Chris did say during the questioning period that there were several times when he could have benefited from the addition of a rudder or skeg and wanted one then. However, he saw several disadvantages to a rudder most of the time and feared it would not survive the surf landings (one dumper early in the trip cracked the helmet he had tied to his rear deck--I don't think he made the mistake of underestimating the surf--and not wearing the helmet for launches and landings--again). I was surprised to learn his kayak didn't have a skeg and asked him why. Chris mentioned the potential gear storage space it took up that he critically needed because he had to do long stretches between resupply points. He also said that going solo as he did, meant he wouldn't have anyone else around to get the skeg unstuck for him after a launch through surf. I got the impression from the questions about this if he were to do it again he would make the same choice of the more maneuverable kayak without add-on control devices. He felt the maneuverability he gained with the Romany in the critical surf portions of his trip outweighed the difficulty he had during particularly bad quartering following seas where he at times wished he had a rudder or skeg on his boat (but not a less maneuverable small cockpit kayak that would also delay his exits when landing through dumping surf on steep beaches. As it was it was a "not quick enough" exit that let the surf reclaim his kayak for the sea and seriously smashed it up. <SNIP> *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Matt Broze wrote: > > > > > > Matt wrote: > > > > <<<< > > Try tightening the shock cord that goes around the cockpit rim. Be sure > > and > > loosen it again if the spraydeck may be used by novices later. > > Call Rich at Snapdragon (425)957-3575. I'm sure he could tell you (and > > make > > you one just like it). He was one of Chris's sponsors. Chris told me he > > did > > the whole trip with the one spraydeck so it held up well. > > >>>> > > > > Like, if it didn't, he's gonna say something negative about one of his > > sponsors? Oh Matt, you are like so yesterday. > > I don't know, but suspect that sponsorship meant he got his spraydeck for > free. I'm sure if he wasn't happy with it he would have gotten something > else as soon as feasible. Chris strikes me as an extremely honest > individual. I think you owe him an apology. I think that Doug's reaction is a result of healthy cynicism to the really contrived marketing schemes that seem to permeate the sports industry, from the olympics to the even more equipment intensive sports as in paddling. But that said, my encounter with Chris Duff's lecture (the NZ trip) and teaching (a quite phenomenal forward stroke class) left the impression of a very secure, honest and open guy (a bit shy and self effacing as well) and would probably just shrug off and chuckle at Doug's comment. At the lecture that I attended, with Nigel Dennis sitting in the room, he gave a very honest review of his experiences in the Romany and included in his slide presentation quite a few pictures of his smashed boat. I kinda wondered whether ND would ever consider sponsoring him again with my cynical attitude. I appreciate both Doug and Matt's views and reviews of things like the spray deck issue. Though I sense a bit of heat sometimes, I have great respect for both with the experience and thoughtfulness they exude in their posts. I have the postmodern attitude that there is no one better thing than another out there, but through this banter I will find the best thing for me. I am a lucky guy. best, gabriel -- Gabriel L Romeu http://studiofurniture.com İİİİİ furniture from the workshop http://studiofurniture.com/diary İİİİİ life as a tourist, daily journal http://studiofurniture.com/paint İİİİİ paintings, photographs, etchings, objects *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Matt Broze wrote: > See comments in text below. > > > Like, if it didn't, he's gonna say something negative about one of his > > sponsors? Oh Matt, you are like so yesterday. > > I don't know, but suspect that sponsorship meant he got his spraydeck for > free. I'm sure if he wasn't happy with it he would have gotten something > else as soon as feasible. Chris strikes me as an extremely honest > individual. I think you owe him an apology. > (Many snips all over) Well, I was actually thinking of the whole sponsor game in general, not so much Chris in particular. My recollection of Chris Duff concurs with yours, so I'm sure you have a good point taking exception with my comments. I'll "cc" the list here, as a public confession statement. I don't think Chris would harbor resentments -- that's another thing I recall about Chris. BTW, I have always been very careful quoting him in print, etc., seeking his prior approval, etc. > > Hey Matt and gang, I know some kayaks that need an implosion bar under > > their vacuum bagged fiberglass decks :-) > > I have heard of someone who spent several times more money repairing his > mostly chop-strand mat kayak than it cost new. Different kayaks each have > there place and limitations. Reasonable folks make lots of trade-offs to > best fit their perceived needs. > I think expedition paddling is the ultimate in conundrums. This goes beyond the context of the comments above, but is a springboard to expedition-equipping questions. One would normally want a tough, durable kayak for a typical long range expedition, but heavyweight will come with an added price over those longer, arduous miles. I'm sure Chris could have had his Romany built like a tank (or more so), but who wants to solo-lift that up some steep, remote beach all the time. Other expedition-style trips might involve dragging kayaks over glaciers, land bridges, etc. Lots of Kevlar is the usual answer, but Chris was fairly specific with me that he didn't want to break the bank, as it were. Good point about the perceived needs, Matt. > > Well, I like my Ocean Cockpit (have I mentioned that to the list > > before?). Maybe I _don't_ need it, but aesthetically, they look better > > on a Greenland style sea boat -- and funny, I wonder where they get the > > name "Ocean Cockpit" from anyway? > > Well it might just be marketing hype. More likely it came about to > distinguish it from the huge "sprint" style cockpit which was the only other > choice on an early Nordkapp. I forgot about that sprint option. That explains it, then. > > > > > Alas my friend, I shall now keep my bias cockpit-fit hyperbole to myself > > until I get my web site up and running, whereupon I shall quote your > > previous recommendations for the Ocean Cockpit. > > Huh? You talking to me? I don't recall such a recommendation. That was a joke Matt -- rhetorical -- as in small cockpits are harder to get out of, which is why o like them. Oh, never mind. > . And as far as his lack of a skeg or rudder > > with respect to your prior comment about Chris "still completing" the NZ > > trip, didn't someone on this list mention a while back that Chris said > > he would have "sold his heart" for a skeg or rudder. > > Haven't you been suffering back problems lately Doug? Looks like with the > switch Chris no longer suffers from sciatica. Maybe the "ocean" cockpit is a > cause of sciatica. Separate issues, although all paddlers should be aware that overly tight cockpit fittings can be a hazard to health, both with respect to exits and cramping. I've got my Nordkapp at a nice balance now. My first knee tube pod was to low, and very dangerous. My present arrangement means I can't push the foot pump using leg actions. I have to use my calf muscles and heels, alternating side to side. Not for everybody. > Chris did say during the questioning period that there > were several times when he could have benefited from the addition of a > rudder or skeg and wanted one then. However, he saw several disadvantages to > a rudder most of the time and feared it would not survive the surf landings > (one dumper early in the trip cracked the helmet he had tied to his rear > deck--I don't think he made the mistake of underestimating the surf--and not > wearing the helmet for launches and landings--again). I was surprised to > learn his kayak didn't have a skeg and asked him why. Chris mentioned the > potential gear storage space it took up that he critically needed because he > had to do long stretches between resupply points. Yes, I ran the same questions by him prior to the trip. I basically told him it would be his biggest issue, next to surf -- which he is comfortable in, being a WW and surf paddler living near the Washington coast. I think he knew the lack of a skeg would be a problem, but then he didn't know the extent of just how bad the weather was going to be the year of the trip. > He also said that going > solo as he did, meant he wouldn't have anyone else around to get the skeg > unstuck for him after a launch through surf. I got the impression from the > questions about this if he were to do it again he would make the same choice > of the more maneuverable kayak without add-on control devices. He felt the > maneuverability he gained with the Romany in the critical surf portions of > his trip outweighed the difficulty he had during particularly bad quartering > following seas where he at times wished he had a rudder or skeg on his boat > (but not a less maneuverable small cockpit kayak that would also delay his > exits when landing through dumping surf on steep beaches. As it was it was a > "not quick enough" exit that let the surf reclaim his kayak for the sea and > seriously smashed it up. The perfect kayak would be one that "morphs" into the shap/configuration you want. A Tsunami SOT for surf landings with a quick release buckle, and a deep draft ruddered kayak for quartering seas, etc. I've been on trips where rudders have broken, skegs have continually gotten stuck in the closed position due to gravel, etc., etc. (I have a custom-modified HD rudder with a lock pin/quick release that keeps it nailed to the neck for heavy surf landings). Well, there are no perfect compromises, but I do get the feeling from Chris generally, that this gear/kayak talk is all secondary to the experience and lifestyle of expedition paddling and the freedom in life derived thereof. For over-discussing the issue of gear, I do apologize to Chris. Well, jolly good show Matt, Respectfully, Doug *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
From the discussion about large or small cockpits, mention was made of Chris Duff's trip down here - WIND !!!!! Paul Caffyn originally used a slide on skeg for his Nordkapp, a compromise. He now uses a deep fin rudder. Incidently, not all rudders are worth having - ever measured how much blade actually gets in the water on a Prion kayak (Seayak or Kodiak)? MB? > > He also said that going > > solo as he did, meant he wouldn't have anyone else around to get the skeg > > unstuck for him after a launch through surf. I got the impression from the > > questions about this if he were to do it again he would make the same > choice > > of the more maneuverable kayak without add-on control devices. He felt the > > maneuverability he gained with the Romany in the critical surf portions of > > his trip outweighed the difficulty he had during particularly bad > quartering > > following seas where he at times wished he had a rudder or skeg on his boat DL >and a deep >draft ruddered kayak for quartering seas, etc. I've been on trips where >rudders >have broken, skegs have continually gotten stuck in the closed position due to >gravel, etc., etc. (I have a custom-modified HD rudder with a lock pin/quick >release that keeps it nailed to the neck for heavy surf landings). Rudders, surf landings and paddling in New Zealand - It is possible to fit a hoop protector over the rudder in the stowed position if you are really worried about rolling on the beach after a surf landing. As far as the rudder unstowing (falling over the side), mine is locked in position, when up, because the pull-up line goes to the top of the blade and slides the blade up the "holder". The pull-up string "ties" the blade to the deck. New Zealand bought Strikemaster training aircraft a number of years back. They developed fractures in the main spars long before any problems were encountered (per flying hours) in Britain. Turbulence caused by wind. New Zealand is a very windy place. Sounds like about 20-25 knots blowing outside at the moment, supposed to go round to the nor'west later today (warm) and that can go to 30-40 knots followed by a southerly 30-60 knots. Our summer trip was dogged by wind. > but I do get the feeling from Chris generally, that > this gear/kayak talk is all secondary to the experience and lifestyle of > expedition paddling and the freedom in life derived thereof. Just makes life a little easier to enjoy if things work. Alex . . Alex (Sandy) Ferguson Chemistry Department University of Canterbury New Zealand *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
For those interested -- I spoke with Rich at Snap Dragon tonight. They do make a custom-sized skirt for the Romany Explorer, but they are not set up to sell direct to the customer. Their all-neoprene skirt w/out implosion bar retails at $100 and must be purchased by way of a Snap Dragon retailer. Cheers! Jim Tynan Pike Road AL -----Original Message----- From: owner-paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net [mailto:owner-paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net]On Behalf Of Doug Lloyd Sent: Sunday, January 21, 2001 2:09 AM To: PaddleWise_at_paddlewise.net; Matt Broze Subject: [Paddlewise] Cockpit Yada Yada Matt wrote: <<<< Try tightening the shock cord that goes around the cockpit rim. Be sure and loosen it again if the spraydeck may be used by novices later. Call Rich at Snapdragon (425)957-3575. I'm sure he could tell you (and make you one just like it). He was one of Chris's sponsors. Chris told me he did the whole trip with the one spraydeck so it held up well. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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