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From: Vince Dalrymple <vincedalrymple_at_home.com>
subject: [Paddlewise] Storm & Surf sticks
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 12:19:39 -0800
Just wondering what paddles the storm and surf PWers prefer - and why.
Make:
Model:
Straight Shaft or Bent:
Length:
+ relevant info. to length such as paddler height / reach, boat beam, deck height at
gunwale, vertical-ness of stroke, etc:

I'm trying to augment my beat up Lightning (Std. Tour) with a "bomber" stick for
conditions play and would greatly appreciate the input before finalizing an(other)
order decision.

Also, does anyone have any experience using Lendal's Mystic bladed paddle?
If so, what were your thoughts on its down wave performance (short wind chop
surfing)?
And what length is / was the stick?
Straight or Crank Shaft?

How about Lendal's Kinetic XTI (WW blade) or Kinetic Touring paddles, especially in
regards to conditions playing?

Thanks in advance,

Vince

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From: Steve Scherrer <Flatpick_at_teleport.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Storm & Surf sticks
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 10:42:09 -0800
> Just wondering what paddles the storm and surf PWers prefer - and why.
> Make: Lightning
> Model: Free Ride asymetric
> Straight Shaft or Bent:  straight
> Length: 200cm- 45º offset
> + relevant info. to length such as paddler height / reach, boat beam, deck
height at
> gunwale, vertical-ness of stroke, etc:

I generally use a Superior Kayaks greenland paddle <218cm> for everything in
my sea boat but heavy surf play and rock gardening.  I use the short
Lightning WW paddle for vertical outrigger strokes and braces.  it's fast
and works well.

Steve Scherrer
aldercreek.com




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From: Joe Federici <fedo_at_hudsonet.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Storm & Surf sticks
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 14:49:15 -0500
Vince,

I can say fit the "storm and surf PWers" mold but I've done some of both.
I don't have all the detailed information on each paddle but I own 
them so if need be I can. They are Lendle  Nordkapp and Archipelago 
used with my sea boat and Mania and Werner side kick with my surf and 
white water  boats. The Nordkapp is a crank and the rest are straight 
shafts. I find shaft style and length is dependent on personal 
preference more then anything.
For surf I like a short as possible straight shaft with a large 
paddle surface. The large surface allows a good ruder and the ability 
to move water quickly for catching waves. The shorter length makes it 
easier to switch from side to side with out catching in the water.
In my option though if you really want to have fun in the surf not 
mater the paddle you need to be in a flat hulled boat with fins.

d-ring




Just wondering what paddles the storm and surf PWers prefer - and why.
Make:
Model:
Straight Shaft or Bent:
Length:
+ relevant info. to length such as paddler height / reach, boat beam, 
deck height at
gunwale, vertical-ness of stroke, etc:

I'm trying to augment my beat up Lightning (Std. Tour) with a 
"bomber" stick for
conditions play and would greatly appreciate the input before 
finalizing an(other)
order decision.

Also, does anyone have any experience using Lendal's Mystic bladed paddle?
If so, what were your thoughts on its down wave performance (short wind chop
surfing)?
And what length is / was the stick?
Straight or Crank Shaft?

How about Lendal's Kinetic XTI (WW blade) or Kinetic Touring paddles, 
especially in
regards to conditions playing?

Thanks in advance,

Vince
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From: <Strosaker_at_aol.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Storm & Surf sticks
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 14:57:21 EST
Vince,

For the surf, the paddle I use depends on  which kayak I use.  For my 
whitewater kayak, I use a 200 cm Werner whitewater paddle with a feather of 
45 degrees.  For my sea kayak, I use my regular sea kayaking paddle, because 
I use surfing my sea kayak as form of rough water training, so I want to use 
the paddle I normally use for sea kayaking.  My sea kayaking paddle is a 220 
cm Werner Little Dipper with a feather of 60 degrees.  All my paddles have 
straight shafts.  I haven't tried the bent ones yet.

Duane
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From: Whyte, David <david.whyte_at_amsa.gov.au>
subject: RE: [Paddlewise] Storm & Surf sticks
Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 12:06:33 +1100
Vince

Like Duane I also use my regular paddle as I use the surf as training
for landing in surf on trips. Also the the same reason I only play in
the surf in my sea kayak rather (which is probably more fun though I
haven't tried it) than a WW boat. I use a Fibreglass paddle with skinny
blades and unfeathered. Length is 218cm.  I am thinking about changing
my blades as they lack a bit of power when you want to get through the
surf quickly

David


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From: Doug Lloyd <dlloyd_at_telus.net>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Storm & Surf sticks
Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 23:52:22 -0800
 Joe Federici said:

<snip>
>>>>
They are Lendle  Nordkapp and Archipelago
used with my sea boat and Mania and Werner side kick with my surf and
white water  boats. The Nordkapp is a crank and the rest are straight
shafts. I find shaft style and length is dependent on personal
preference more then anything.
<<<<
<snip>

Joe/Vince<
Those are some of the paddles I prefer.  (Note correct spelling of
Lendal). The Lendal Archipelago is straight-shafted with nylon yellow
blades for durability and visibility. The straight-shaft is a
no-nonsense affair at 60 degree feather. It is easy on the shoulders,
and at 225 cm, provides good outboard support for low-stroke sea
paddling in extremely high winds. My Lendal Nordkapp is straight-shafted
with white nylon blades. The white actually shows up very well while I'm
inverted wrestling with my native spatial limitations, and I find it the
easiest to orient. It is 70 degrees for feather. I use it for sea
paddling in currents, surf, tide-current interface zones, and any other
invigorating marine hydraulics. A 220 cm length is a nice compromise. It
has an older heavy FG shaft, and has been to hell and back. I can't say
that for my newer Lendal Nordkapp with FG shaft, which didn't even
survive the lake. I also have an epoxy graphite Lendal Archipelago
crank-shaft (or is that a bent-shaft, or perhaps a modified shaft :-) ).
I use this for fast training runs and fitness paddling. It is 70 degrees
for feather. It is all black. The crank design is nicer on the wrists,
but a little more difficult to use if you want to "choke-up" on the
shaft. I bought a CD bent-shaft, but did not like it, and so returned
it. It did have a much nicer ovalized shaft for finger indexing, which I
miss. I would like to make a Greenland stick, someday. My boat is 21
wide or so. I am short-armed. I paddled for years with the big-bladded
Lendal Nordkapp in high winds/storms (actual storm-force velocities) in
my twenties, with a 230 cm length. Three shoulder surgeries later, and a
lot of Cortisone later, I now paddle with a shorter shaft and narrower
blades (usually). A 215 cm white water paddle is best in surf with a
surf boat. I like a nice, uncomplicated paddle/blade for that kind of
paddle-play.

Your stick is your life out there -- choose wisely. Get comfortable with
it before pushing any envelops. And relax that damn grip. Those wrist
tendons need to last you a long time. But do be tight-fisted with your
money. I've always managed to talk the price down on paddles, or waited
for a sale. Having said that, they are an investment.

PS I'll post my strength-training exercises and stretching routines if i
get a chance this weekend. I had a number of request come in. been real
busy.

DL



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From: Grant Glazer <grant_glazer_at_xtra.co.nz>
subject: [Paddlewise] Storm Paddling?
Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 21:49:50 +1300
I've seen a number of references to storm paddling on paddlewise which has
got me curious.
    What is the definition of a storm for paddling,
    Any special techniques (apart from surfing),
    How do you handle the strong winds,
    What is the best sort of kayak - equipment for it,
    How much whiskey must be consumed beforehand!

Cheers
Grant


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From: Steve Scherrer <Flatpick_at_teleport.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Storm Paddling?
Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 07:53:23 -0800
Whenever the wind is over 25 knots, I consider it grarly.  Seas generally
run 1.5 - 3 feet or MORE, anything downwindish is a hoot.

Steve Scherrer
aldercreek.com



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From: Whyte, David <david.whyte_at_amsa.gov.au>
subject: RE: [Paddlewise] Storm & Surf sticks
Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 17:12:16 +1100
Dennis

I think I probably use the term skinny paddle a bit loosely. I wasn't
referring to a greenlander style paddle but the ones with the skinnier
than normal paddle blades. I am not sure what they are called. One of my
paddling friends stop using his greenlander paddle in the surf as he
found it didn't have enough acceleration to get through a big surf zone.

David

-----Original Message-----
From: Dennis, Becky & Natalie [mailto:arebecca1_at_qwest.net]
Sent: Friday, 26 January 2001 12:17 PM
To: Whyte, David
Cc: PaddleWise_at_paddlewise.net
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Storm & Surf sticks


Could I get some comment on Inuit-style paddles and, particularly surf,
please.  I know some Lake Superior paddlers from Duluth who use a  84-90
in. by 4 in. "Greenland" paddle for EVERYTHING, including the roughest,
gnarliest surf and waves.  I always hear Euro-style paddlers complain
the long, skinning Greenland sticks won't provide the acceleration but I
haven't yet found that to be true.  Comments?

Thanks - Dennis in St. Paul


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From: Greg Stamer <gstamer_at_magicnet.net>
subject: RE: [Paddlewise] Storm & Surf sticks
Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 23:50:16 -0500
>Could I get some comment on Inuit-style paddles and, particularly surf,
>>please.  I know some Lake Superior paddlers from Duluth who use a  84-90
>>in. by 4 in. "Greenland" paddle for EVERYTHING, including the roughest,
>>gnarliest surf and waves.  I always hear Euro-style paddlers complain
>>the long, skinning Greenland sticks won't provide the acceleration but I
>>haven't yet found that to be true.  Comments?

Dennis,

I find that the Greenland paddle really shines in stormy weather because
its behavior is neutral and very predictable, even in extremely gusty
winds. To put the shoe on the other foot, in Greenland many of the old
kayak men don't believe that feathered "Euro-style" paddles are safe to use
in their stormy conditions. Your point of view is often colored by the gear
you are accustomed to using.

No one paddle design can be the "best" at everything, but quick
acceleration with a Greenland stick is not a problem with proper technique,
which means getting the paddle vertical, and using plenty of lower body
drive and torso rotation. Also don't forget to add a "push-pull" component
with your arms. I also prefer the "slant stroke" whereby the top edge of
the paddle blade is tilted slightly forwards. I find that the limiting
factor in accelerating and sprinting is not the paddle but my own strength
and endurance. Don't make the mistake of thinking that you have to keep a
Greenland paddle held low in your lap "to be authentic". In Greenland you
will see a low horizontal stroke for easy touring to a high-racing stroke
to every nuance in-between. 

I prefer a Greenland stick for all of my sea kayaking including large
glassy waves from passing hurricanes to nasty dumping waves to blown-out
victory-at-sea conditions. Even nice weather too. My buddies with Euro
blades also play in the same conditions. So the real question is not
whether or not "Euro" or Greenland equipment can handle surf and storm
conditions, but whether or not you have the competency and skills with your
chosen equipment to safely handle the conditions.

Greg Stamer
Orlando, Florida


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From: Doug Lloyd <dlloyd_at_telus.net>
subject: RE: [Paddlewise] Storm & Surf sticks
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 22:15:20 -0800
Greg Stamer said:

<snip>
<<<<
I prefer a Greenland stick for all of my sea kayaking including large
glassy waves from passing hurricanes to nasty dumping waves to blown-out

victory-at-sea conditions. Even nice weather too. My buddies with Euro
blades also play in the same conditions. So the real question is not
whether or not "Euro" or Greenland equipment can handle surf and storm
conditions, but whether or not you have the competency and skills with
your
chosen equipment to safely handle the conditions.
<<<<

I think Greg's comments are right on the mark. I know of trips where
storm conditions came up fast and furious to over 50 knots. The
Greenland stick paddler veered off, unable to keep up (don't ask me why
they didn't keep together - I never did get a straight answer). The
other two guys now suffer the opinion that the Greenland paddle is good
for one thing only -- firewood! This is a bit unfair, as the skill and
competency of the paddler in question was actually the missing part of
the equation. The answer isn't blowing in the wind.

By default, I would say that a europaddle, even a whitewater paddle,  is
best for surf work with a new paddler. Unless one is adept and
experienced with the Greenland paddle, as the Greenland paddle isn't the
norm for surf play. For rough water paddling, both the Greenland paddle
and the eurobladded paddle have advantages and disadvantages. Much of my
opinion is based on second hand info, however.

One thing I did experience first hand was the Storm Island trip with two
other paddlers. At the height of the gale, when seas were big and
breaking (enough that we had to claw over each wave), I had enough
presence of mind (as only a gonzo-demented paddler would have) to make
mental notes about paddler effort. The one paddler at the front of the
pack was using the bigger Nordkapp blades. He was able to power up and
over the waves (at least at first it was easy enough for him). I had the
smaller Archipelago blades, and had a hard time keeping up with him. I
knew the trip would be tormented by wind before we left, so thought the
smaller blade would be better, as I too have a Nordkapp paddle that I
didn't take on purpose. Of course I was towing an incapacitated paddler,
but I just couldn't dig in the way I normally would in "determination
mode", which would relegate the towing as less of a drain for the good
condition I was in  -- at the time. I had narrow blades on my rear deck
spare too. In future, I will take both a set of big blades, and a set of
narrow bladed paddles, then I can switch back and forth as needed. I may
even carry a greenland stick when I make one, for at least a spare ( not
firewood: :-)) The paddler that was in trouble also had narrower blades.
The best paddle I ever owned was an Aquabound with a wide blade, but a
soft dihedral for easy shoulder comfort. It was all black however, and I
felt that was not a safe paddle, so didn't replace it after loosing it.

Once out at sea, ya run what ya brung.

DL

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