I'm wondering if working with a boat that is really that easy to roll is more productive than struggling with one that is harder? I found that my plastic boat is VERY easy to roll. I have been working with my Gulfstream since last spring and hadn't tried the Breeze again. I happen to have both boats at the pool a few weeks back and tried the Breeze. It was so easy I almost did a 360! So I worked with her for the couple of weeks then back in the GS. I found the GS so hard to roll then but the progress I made in the Breeze actually stuck. I had been trying to learn to roll with a Euro paddle and had no real success until I started working in the Breeze. I was also trying to learn to roll with my new Greenland paddle. I really hadn't worked with it much before I tried it in the Breeze. Moving back to the GS everything was harder but I was able to do an extended paddle roll with the Euro paddle. It was so hard that I decided not to even try the screw roll that was hard, even in the Breeze. So, what do people think about continuing to work in the Breeze and going back to the GS like once a month for the next 2-3 months? One other motivation for that is the pool is really hard on my glass boat. Just getting in from the side has badly scratched the boat by the cockpit :( Once the water is of a temperature that it is realistic for me to work for extended periods of time, I'll just take both boats but at the pool, this has several problems. Joan Spinner *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 1/11/01 9:57:29 PM, RWMCT_at_aol.com writes: << Even an xtra 3/4 inch in a fairly skinny boat can make it feel a lot different (I imagine this works the other way as well: lower the stock seats, and get more stability. >> I'll second this. I went through weeks of messing with the seat until I finally had to take my foam seat down to less than 1/2" at the seatbone point. But you really don't need more than that if the foam is good. Joan Spinner *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
----- Original Message ----- From: <JSpinner_at_aol.com> To: <PaddleWise_at_paddlewise.net> Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2001 7:35 AM Subject: [Paddlewise] No Subject > I'm wondering if working with a boat that is really that easy to roll is more > productive than struggling with one that is harder? Absolutely yes. It is much preferrable to learn rolling in an easy boat and then progress to a harder boat. Best to have a boat which rolls easily so that you know when you miss a roll, the fault is with your technique and not the boat. Making the hipsnap motion automatic is vastly more difficult if you constantly get negative feedback in the form of a beastly rolling boat. <snip> > So, what do people think about continuing to work in the Breeze and going > back to the GS like once a month for the next 2-3 months? I think there is not much intrinsinc difference between the Breeze and Gulfstream -- they are both sea kayaks of roughly the same size, weight, width, length, and shape. If I were to guess which was harder to roll, I would say plastic because it is less stiff and weighs more. More likely, the difference in apparent rollability lies in one of the following: - outfitting: Does one boat fit you significantly better? Are the footpedals similar in distance and support? Proper outfitting is crucial. - seat height/cockpit depth: Do you sit deeper in one? - psychological:. In rolling, this is often huge factor. Hope this helps, Kevin *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I think what this really points to is outfitting. In a larger boat, outfitting becomes more critical. Unless I'm mistaken, you need a nice pillar and decent thigh straps to roll a C1. Greenland kayaks are commonly built without any hip or knee padding, but their nature of being narrow and shallow precludes the need for padding so the body has contact with the boat at several points. Straight out of the box, whitewater kayaks have better outfitting than most sea kayaks, and definitely S&g plywood boats. With good outfitting, larger boats can be rolled easier. Shawn --- Peter Staehling <staehpj1_at_yahoo.com> wrote: > I didn't think the larger boat was harder to roll only > different. In a big heavy boat like a canoe the roll > is at an entirely different pace, much slower. Would > Shawn's recommendation of a small ww boat help you? > Maybe, but maybe not. I have heard folks say they > found a SK to be much easier to roll. Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better http://health.yahoo.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Yep, definately do not try to learn to roll in a boat that you are flopping around in. Of course boats of all sizes can be padded out to fit you. Pete Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better http://health.yahoo.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I haven't learned to roll as I paddle a Sit-On-Top, but they can be rolled. When I was taking a SOT class with my first boat, a Cobra Explorer, 31 inches wide, the instructor asked me to trade boats for minute. He then tucked his knees under my knee straps and rolled it 6 times with no perceptible problem. Then he stood up in the boat for about 30 sedonds before falling out. Obviously if you have a really good roll it can be done in all kinds of boats. If the roll is shaky, practice until it's excellent, otherwise don't depend on being able to roll. -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dave Flory, San Jose, CA. daflory_at_pacbell.net Go Sea Kayaking!! ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Speak softly and study Aikido, then you won't need a big stick. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Outfitting is especially critical in the Chesepeake 18. I'm 6' 230 pounds and before outfitting I didn't make enough contact with my Chesepeake to edge the boat, much less roll. After padding out the hips and adding sizeable knee braces, it is relatively easy to control the boat. While not anywhere near bombproof I have rolled the boat. I think the rounded deck makes the boat easier to roll than many, but the high rear deck makes it critical to learn rolls that do not require you to lay back. > I think what this really points to is outfitting. In a larger boat, > outfitting becomes more critical. Unless I'm mistaken, you need a nice > pillar and decent thigh straps to roll a C1. > Straight out of the box, whitewater kayaks have better outfitting than > most sea kayaks, and definitely S&g plywood boats. With good > outfitting, larger boats can be rolled easier. > *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
----- Original Message ----- From: "Shawn Baker" <shawnkayak_at_yahoo.com> >With good outfitting, larger boats can be rolled easier. Right on! That is exactly the truth, and I've said it many times myself. Good outfitting is the very first step in rolling. Good thigh bracing, good foot braces (that don't move on tracks), and tight hips are the essential aspects. Kevin *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 3/9/01 9:00:27 AM, bhansen2_at_twcny.rr.com writes: << This one has escaped me, and I didn't see it in SK mag. I can't visualize how it would work, unless there were some sort of strap or heavy line which ran from inside the cockpit, between the coaming lip and spray deck. Is that it? - Bill Hansen >> Hi Bill, Yeah, that's it. Phyrana (sp?) does this with their WW boats. At least I've seen some done this way. A strap is attached inside the cockpit under the deck. The strap is laid over the cockpit rim and the spray deck is attached. To release you just pull the strap towards you, rolling the spray deck off the coaming. On the one I saw, had a whiffle golf ball was attached to the end of the strap. It worked quite well in that particular boat (a plastic Mountain 300?) though some thought would be required to make it work well with some other boats. Jed *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 3/9/01 6:13:28 AM Pacific Standard Time, SeaKayakNH_at_aol.com writes: Bill wrote: > << This one has escaped me, and I didn't see it in SK mag. I can't visualize > how it would work, unless there were some sort of strap or heavy line which > ran from inside the cockpit, between the coaming lip and spray deck. Is > that it? - Bill Hansen >> > > Jed wrote: > Yeah, that's it. Phyrana (sp?) does this with their WW boats. At least > I've seen some done this way. A strap is attached inside the cockpit under > the deck. The strap is laid over the cockpit rim and the spray deck is > attached. To release you just pull the strap towards you, rolling the spray > deck off the coaming. On the one I saw, had a whiffle golf ball was > attached > That's what I was referring to. A whiffle ball or loop on the loose end of the strap helps make it easy to find and grab. The best location for the strap would depend on coaming shape and should be determined by experimentation. Furthermore, the end of the strap can be held to the deck by velcro so that the likelihood of the strap being closed inside the skirt is nil and the end remains in the same familiar position on the deck for easy location. There is no strain put on the skirt and very little on the strap attachment when the strap is used. The idea is that it serves as a backup -- for use only when the skirt grabloop fails or is trapped inside the skirt, but it may make skirt removal so much easier that some people might want to use it as the primary system. I believe I first saw this in Derek Hutchinson's book or in a vintage Seakayaker. Harold *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
The secondary strap method works very well, because you can just pull straight back to pop the skirt. This is easier than the method for releasing a tight skirt using the grap loop, which requires pull the loop forward of the cockpit slightly before pulling up and back. To put it simply, the strap attached to the coaming is idiot proof, while the grabloop method takes a little bit of technique. I have owned lots of pyranha whitewater kayaks with the stock cockpit strap, and I have never ever used the strap. Why? Because it's a leak point -- water can infiltrate along the edge of the strap under the coaming and into the cockpit. That's a real pain in the arse on the river, but probably a lot less of a problem for sea kayakers. Depends on what kind of sea kayaker you are, I suppose... :) Kevin ----- Original Message ----- From: <HTERVORT_at_aol.com> To: <SeaKayakNH_at_aol.com>; <PaddleWise_at_paddlewise.net> Sent: Friday, March 09, 2001 7:21 AM Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] No Subject > In a message dated 3/9/01 6:13:28 AM Pacific Standard Time, > SeaKayakNH_at_aol.com writes: > > Bill wrote: > > > << This one has escaped me, and I didn't see it in SK mag. I can't visualize > > how it would work, unless there were some sort of strap or heavy line which > > ran from inside the cockpit, between the coaming lip and spray deck. Is > > that it? - Bill Hansen >> > > > > Jed wrote: > > Yeah, that's it. Phyrana (sp?) does this with their WW boats. At least > > I've seen some done this way. A strap is attached inside the cockpit under > > the deck. The strap is laid over the cockpit rim and the spray deck is > > attached. To release you just pull the strap towards you, rolling the spray > > deck off the coaming. On the one I saw, had a whiffle golf ball was > > attached > > > > > > That's what I was referring to. A whiffle ball or loop on the loose end of > the strap helps make it easy to find and grab. > The best location for the strap would depend on coaming shape and should be > determined by experimentation. Furthermore, the end of the strap can be held > to the deck by velcro so that the likelihood of the strap being closed inside > the skirt is nil and the end remains in the same familiar position on the > deck for easy location. There is no strain put on the skirt and very little > on the strap attachment when the strap is used. > The idea is that it serves as a backup -- for use only when the skirt > grabloop fails or is trapped inside the skirt, but it may make skirt removal > so much easier that some people might want to use it as the primary system. > I believe I first saw this in Derek Hutchinson's book or in a vintage > Seakayaker. > > Harold > > > > > *************************************************************************** > PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed > here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire > responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. > Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net > Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net > Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ > *************************************************************************** > *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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