After being away from newsgroups for awhile because of changes in computers and some problems, I finally got my newsgroup reader set up again just over the weekend. I wandered on to rec.boats.paddle and rec.boats.paddle.touring to see that Tim Ingram of Sponsons fame is absolutely screwing up the newsgroups with his constant diatribe about safety and the superiority of sponsons (hmm, an alliteration that Tim might want to use :-) ). He must be hogging about 90 per cent of the traffic and is getting people to actually respond. As I waded through Tim's trash, I felt very thankful that we were able to create Paddlewise as a listserve that is moderated against such excesses. Jackie started PaddleWise in part to get away from Tim trash but we got so much more in the process. With a moderated listserve that quickly cuts off abuses, we have been able to have good discussions in a civil manner and not stray too often from paddling subjects. It is now around the 3rd anniversary of Paddlewise (it's started January 29, 1998); the garbage going on in the paddling newsgroups is a reminder of how thankful we all should be. ralph diaz ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024 Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com "Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag." ----------------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Ralph Diaz writes: "It is now around the 3rd anniversary of Paddlewise (it's started January 29, 1998); the garbage going on in the paddling newsgroups is a reminder of how thankful we all should be." I have been on and off the list for maybe 18 months. What is the 'history' of this listserv, anyway? Would be curious to hear of its origins. It is a decent place. (Hey try rec.backcountry....it is now a toss up between Mike Vandeman and his mountain-bike crusade, and a curious mix of white-power cross-posters.) I know that I would be one of the first to piss-and-moan about "censorship" .... but sometimes even I find myself reaching for the duct tape, and wishing I could reach through the LCD screen and...oh never mind. <G> Rich Dempsey ridem_at_msn.com ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ See our canoe tripping website http://communities.msn.com/RichWendysAwayFromHomePage *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Ralph, It's funny you should say something about that. I just started following those two new groups myself and though to myself. Who is this Tim guy? He must be nuts, but it's kind of funny in a way. For some reason I keep seeing a Mighty Python skit in my head. It's like no matter what the topic he changes it to sponsons. JFF >After being away from newsgroups for awhile because of changes in computers >and some problems, I finally got my newsgroup reader set up again just over >the weekend. I wandered on to rec.boats.paddle and rec.boats.paddle.touring >to see that Tim Ingram of Sponsons fame is absolutely screwing up the >newsgroups with his constant diatribe about safety and the superiority of >sponsons (hmm, an alliteration that Tim might want to use :-) ). He must be >hogging about 90 per cent of the traffic and is getting people to actually >respond. > > > > > >As I waded through Tim's trash, I felt very thankful that we were able to >create Paddlewise as a listserve that is moderated against such excesses. >Jackie started PaddleWise in part to get away from Tim trash but we got so >much more in the process. With a moderated listserve that quickly cuts off >abuses, we have been able to have good discussions in a civil manner and not >stray too often from paddling subjects. It is now around the 3rd anniversary >of Paddlewise (it's started January 29, 1998); the garbage going on in the >paddling newsgroups is a reminder of how thankful we all should be. > > > > > >ralph diaz *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I just got a call last night from some angry guy who got some email that Mr Ingram had spammed the world with. From what this guy said, Tim had used my name as an endorser of his sponsons. I haven't seen the offending message myself. All I have is the the word of some irate stranger who said I should call Tim and make him stop. (As if I had any control over the Tim.) He then said people were organizing to shut Tim's web site down with a deluge of email, and if I didn't do something soon, I would be next. I'm trying to think what I may have said to Tim to make him think I was offering an endorsement. The only thing I can remember is I think I once told him that people don't have much against his sponsons, it is Tim himself they dislike. For the record, regardless of the quality of his product, I don't endorse him or his methodology. If anyone sees the spam from Tim which mentions me, I would appreciate a copy. I would like to know what caused some unknown stranger to threaten to shut down my website. Nick -- Nick Schade Guillemot Kayaks 824 Thompson St Glastonbury, CT 06033 (860) 659-8847 *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Nick Schade wrote: > > I just got a call last night from some angry guy who got some email > that Mr Ingram had spammed the world with. From what this guy said, > Tim had used my name as an endorser of his sponsons. > > I'm trying to think what I may have said to Tim to make him think I > was offering an endorsement. The only thing I can remember is I think > I once told him that people don't have much against his sponsons, it > is Tim himself they dislike. Tim is a tar baby. If you so much as brush against him (ie, email him, respond to one of his posts, call him a nut-case) he has you and will say all sorts of off-the-wall stuff about you. And to you. Treat him like a virus. And one more thank you to our list-mom, Jackie -- Steve Cramer *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Steve Cramer wrote: > Tim is a tar baby. If you so much as brush against him (ie, email him, > respond to one of his posts, call him a nut-case) he has you and will > say all sorts of off-the-wall stuff about you. And to you. Treat him > like a virus. Absolutely correct. If no one responded to **any** of his postings, he would wither away to a low roar. He feeds on responses. Someone with a clinical psychology background can probably identify the syndrome. > And one more thank you to our list-mom, Jackie Amen. I hope someome lays out the "legend of Paddlewise" for Rich Dempsey, because it is worth knowing how this forum came to be. It was a lesson for me, as a person normally virulently opposed to censorship. My sometimes off-the-wall paddling buddy refers to things like this as a "community of discourse." As in all communities, there need to be agreed-upon operating principles ... and operating principles require enforcers, perforce. -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 04:35 PM 2/5/01 -0800, Dave Kruger wrote: > >I hope someome lays out the "legend of Paddlewise" for Rich Dempsey, because it >is worth knowing how this forum came to be. It was a lesson for me, as a >person normally virulently opposed to censorship. My sometimes off-the-wall >paddling buddy refers to things like this as a "community of discourse." As in >all communities, there need to be agreed-upon operating principles ... and >operating principles require enforcers, perforce. I'm probably not the one to talk about "the legend of Paddlewise", since I wasn't around when it started. But, as I understand it, we do have Mr. Ingram to thank for this peaceful meeting place. The predecessor to Paddlewise was the old Wavelength listserver, which this Ingram discovered and discovered and bombarded in the same way that he's currently hitting the newsgroups. The Wavelength list owner, while not happy about Ingram, also was unwilling to do anything to shut him up for fear of "censoring" him. The list rapidly became unreadable. My understanding is that Jackie and a few others conferred off-list, and decided to start up this list server as a semi-moderated affair as an alternative, just a little over three years ago. Jackie is not one to toot her own horn, and every now and then some of the rest of us have to do it for her. Over the last three years, Jackie has built an exceptionally civilized meeting place, and only occasionally has she hinted at the measures she goes to in order to keep this place civilized and spam-free. Normally the flow of information is free, albeit with filters that keep out annoying attachments (especially MIME), e-mail viruses and other nasty stuff that runs free on many less well organized listservers. She has on occasion hinted at the existence of some fairly elaborate spam traps. But, past that, the flow of information is free. Once in a while, things get a little heated and Jackie is forced to take measures to tone it down, but that's pretty rare. And, we all appreciate it. But the issue of censorship is sticky. I don't think of what is being done here as censorship. Paddlewise is not a government agency, but a community of friends. Ingram and other pests are free to peddle their spam . . . just not here. Ingram is free to send out all the messages on USENET that he wants to -- over 1100 in two months, someone commented yesterday, if I recall correctly. I don't see much of them, though, thanks to filters and liberal use of the "Ignore Thread" button. Am I censoring out Ingram when I read RBP? Or Muskie on alt.great-lakes? Or Vandemann or the other nutcases on rec.backcountry? No, I'm just choosing not to listen to them, the same as I'm choosing not to listen to, oh, Rush Limbaugh or Howard Stern. Imagine yourself in a bar with a bunch of friends, when some pest comes over and tries to pick a fight. You can ignore him, or you can fight, or you can ask the management to throw him out, or you can leave. None of those alternatives involve censorship; they just involve your right to peaceful discourse. Now, I run a weekly newspaper. We have a nutcase here in Michigan that gripes about property rights in letters to the editor to papers all over the state. Constantly. Though he's tailed off a bit in recent years, we used to get two or three letters to the editor a week from him. It got to the point where I can recognize the handwriting (he always hand-addresses the letters) and pitch the letters without opening them. Am I censoring him? Well, while we are a business that deals with the public, we are not a public entity. I have a right and a responsibility to choose what I present to my readers. Frankly, if I present too much of the wrong stuff, or not enough of the right stuff, my readers lose interest, circulation drops, and if I don't change course we could go down the tubes. I do allow a certian number of nutcase letters since it keeps things interesting, but I refuse to let them get out of hand. And, while I usually don't place restrictions and let the local nutcases rant a bit, a couple times over the years I've been forced to say, "I think we've exhausted what there is to say on this subject." Am I censoring these people? They claim I am, but I contend that as the editor of what ultimately is a private publication, I'm merely being selective of what I'm going to run in the limited space I have to work with. If they feel that their voice is not being heard, they are welcome to purchase space or go elsewhere. I'm not shutting off their right to speak to the community; I'm just refusing to be the vehicle, especially for free. I realize this has strayed a ways off topic (sorry, Jackie!), but just wanted to comment that sometimes it takes someone with some discretion to keep a friendly community from deteriorating into a barroom brawl. We are here on Paddlewise because we accept that fact, and accept the person that's using their discretion to keep it that way. We are free to go elsewhere if we wish. But, for myself, I appreciate the work that Jackie has gone through over the years to keep this a peaceful, informative and friendly place. I'd like to thank her very much for going to the effort. Thanks, Jackie! -- Wes *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Wes wrote: > I'm probably not the one to talk about "the legend of Paddlewise", since I > wasn't around when it started. But, as I understand it, we do have Mr. > Ingram to thank for this peaceful meeting place. (Long snip) Wes... . thanks for the background, it was quite interesting. I wish I had not used the "c"-word, I should have stuck with semi-moderated. Yes, the civility here is what makes Paddlewise unique, even among st some of the other list-servs I belong to. > But, for myself, I appreciate the work that Jackie has gone through over > the years to keep this a peaceful, informative and friendly place. I'd like > to thank her very much for going to the effort. I agree, thanks Jackie! Rich ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ See our canoe tripping website http://communities.msn.com/RichWendysAwayFromHomePage ----- Original Message ----- From: "Wes Boyd" <boydwe_at_dmci.net> To: "Dave Kruger" <dkruger_at_pacifier.com>; "Paddlewise" <paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net> Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2001 12:10 PM Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Thank the gods above and Jackie! > At 04:35 PM 2/5/01 -0800, Dave Kruger wrote: > > > >I hope someome lays out the "legend of Paddlewise" for Rich Dempsey, > because it > >is worth knowing how this forum came to be> The predecessor to > Paddlewise was the old Wavelength listserver, which this Ingram discovered > and discovered and bombarded in the same way that he's currently hitting > the newsgroups. The Wavelength list owner, while not happy about Ingram, > also was unwilling to do anything to shut him up for fear of "censoring" > him. The list rapidly became unreadable. My understanding is that Jackie > and a few others conferred off-list, and decided to start up this list > server as a semi-moderated affair as an alternative, just a little over > three years ago. (SNIP) > I realize this has strayed a ways off topic (sorry, Jackie!), but just > wanted to comment that sometimes it takes someone with some discretion to > keep a friendly community from deteriorating into a barroom brawl. We are > here on Paddlewise because we accept that fact, and accept the person > that's using their discretion to keep it that way. We are free to go > elsewhere if we wish. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 02:01 PM 2/6/01 -0500, RiDem wrote: >Wes wrote: > >> I'm probably not the one to talk about "the legend of Paddlewise", since I >> wasn't around when it started. But, as I understand it, we do have Mr. >> Ingram to thank for this peaceful meeting place. > (Long snip) > >Wes... . thanks for the background, it was quite interesting. I wish I had >not used the "c"-word, I should have stuck with semi-moderated. Yes, the >civility here is what makes Paddlewise unique, even among st some of the >other list-servs I belong to. It's interesting to download the first few Paddlewise digest archives, which reflect some of the early hassles and genuine concerns about walking out on Wavelength and setting up Paddlewise -- and some of the frank discussion about sponsons that went on after there wasn't a drumfire of spam. I think the instructions on how to get the archived digest articles are on the web page. I know I used it last fall, and had some trouble with it, but can't find the e-mail transactions involved -- a new computer is part of the problem. -- Wes *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Wes Boyd did a good wrapup of the genesis of PaddleWise in relationship to Tim Ingram. It is too bad that he (Tim, I mean) is such a pest. His product is not all that bad. Given some prepping of your boat and practice, it could be helpful in certain situations. I know that Feathercraft did provide the Sea Wings and fittings with its narrower, sponsonless Khatsalano to help in a self rescue. And, if someone is ill, lashing on sponsons to the boat could make a big difference in the person getting to shore on his/her own or in a tow. He first made a fool of himself on rec.boats.paddle by insisting that sponsons should be lashed on to whitewater boats!!! Then he latched on to WaveLength and basically destroyed it. The problem with WaveLength is that it did not try to keep him in check for a variety of reasons. That is why PaddleWise was born. I am probably among the very few who subscribe to PaddleWise who has actually met Tim. I ran across him several times at symposia and even broke bread with him. I knew his pre-sponsons when he had a small folding kayak company called SeaLight if I recall correctly and under his Georgian Bay Kayak banner. These were the funniest looking folding kayaks I have ever seen. Basically he offered 20 or 30 models, which was a joke really. He had a basic design and just added length or width to it and gave the models names like Manhattan, Timbuktu, whatever (the Manhattan was a real model name). The frame consisted of long aluminum tubes and the crossribs were of wood. He would cut it to your desired length and width. The skin was a wrap around one secured with velcro strips. I called the boats burritos in that they resembled the way you wrap that Mexican dish. You made the frame and laid it inside the skin which was fully open at top except the very ends. You then wrapped and overlapped the open top pieces to achieve a closed deck. The overlaps had velcro strips on their hems that accomplished closure. It never looked all that secure to me because the skin was mostly unfitted in its cut. Also the skin was incredibly lumpy...have you ever seen a smooth sided sleek burrito? :-) I have to watch what I say sometimes. I was giving a folding kayak presentation at some symposia or somewhere. As I went through a list of available foldables, I mentioned Tim's boats using my "burritos" comment (the boats were still be offered at the time of my talk). Someone in the audience suddenly got very agitated and quarrelsome. Seems he owned one! Boy, did I do my best diplomatic two-step to calm him down and get him to stop disrupting the presentation. More on Tim. When I met him he had his wife and two lovely daughters along. One was around 2 years old and the older one a bit older, perhaps 4. They all seemed sweet. Tim was affable enough but had a southern itinerent preacher look about him minus the black coat and hat (I see a skinnier Robert Mitchum from the movie whose name I forget, something like Night of the Hunter). Tim did have fire burning in his eyes though when he talked "sponsons" and I should have known then what would eventually transpire as it did later on the Internet and at symposia before they booted him out. People have berated him feeling Tim is just out for profit. I don't think so. He actually believes that sponsons are the salvation for all paddlers and wants you to have one. I suspect that he if could get someone to make them and distribute them freely, he would not insist on a royalty or anything. Anyway, if you are on any of the newsgroups and run across his rant, ignore it. All a response will do is perpetuate the situation by engendering his replies. And, again, thank the gods and Jackie for keep PaddleWise a Tim-free zone. ralph diaz -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024 Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com "Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag." ----------------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 02:10 PM 2/6/01 -0500, ralph diaz wrote: >And, if someone is ill, lashing on sponsons to the boat could >make a big difference in the person getting to shore on his/her own or in a >tow. I was with a group last summer where just that situation arose. As it was, we flagged down a fishing boat and got them to take the sick kayaker back to the launch, and towed the empty boat back. In talking about it afterwards, however, discussing things that could have been done had we not had the friendly bass boat around, and had there been only two of us, we came up with the idea of taking a paddle, sticking it through the back deck lines so it would hang out about equally on either side, and putting a paddle float on each end -- sort of a field expedient sponson arrangement. Given a little time to set it up, probably some extra lashing to keep the paddle in place would have been worthwhile. Of course, with a larger group, it probably would have been better to raft up a second kayak, possibly using paddles under deck lines front and back to stabilize both boats, and then towing with one or more of the other boats. -- Wes *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 2/6/2001 3:20:23 PM Eastern Standard Time, boydwe_at_dmci.net writes: > In talking about it afterwards, however, discussing things that could have > been done had we not had the friendly bass boat around, and had there been > only two of us, we came up with the idea of taking a paddle, sticking it > through the back deck lines so it would hang out about equally on either > Check out a "contact tow", Wes. It's gotta be written up somewhere. Basically, the boats' decklines are connected by a three foot length of three or four mil line, stainless (Wichart are nice) clips on each end; the rescuer places his or her boat next to the sicko and facing the sicko, who then lies down over the rescuer's foredeck, while the rescuer --- with a somewhat extended paddle stroke on the side with the rescuee --- paddles the both to safety. Jack *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 03:46 PM 2/6/01 EST, JCMARTIN43_at_aol.com wrote: >In a message dated 2/6/2001 3:20:23 PM Eastern Standard Time, boydwe_at_dmci.net >writes: > > >> In talking about it afterwards, however, discussing things that could have >> been done had we not had the friendly bass boat around, and had there been >> only two of us, we came up with the idea of taking a paddle, sticking it >> through the back deck lines so it would hang out about equally on either >> > >Check out a "contact tow", Wes. It's gotta be written up somewhere. >Basically, the boats' decklines are connected by a three foot length of three >or four mil line, stainless (Wichart are nice) clips on each end; the rescuer >places his or her boat next to the sicko and facing the sicko, who then lies >down over the rescuer's foredeck, while the rescuer --- with a somewhat >extended paddle stroke on the side with the rescuee --- paddles the both to >safety. That was another option discussed -- and, in fact, I had the rig with me to do it. However, the potential towee was uncomfortable with the idea, not having practiced it. I was just glad I could flag down the bass boat -- which the potential towee now refers to as the "HEY!!!! rescue". -- Wes *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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