Long distance cruising sailors have used strobes for over 25 years all over the world. The same thing with EPIRBS which were originally developed to indicate a 'downed aircraft'. Sailboats at night, like kayaks, often have running lights that are difficult to see. A larger ship or even a tug when approaching a coast line has a mirad of 'background lights' from shore, other vessels, etc. Fog, bad sea conditions, rain, snow, etc. also complicate this ... not to mention the 'understaffing' of the vessels themselves. According to maritime law, these vessels 'are supposed' to have 'lookouts posted'. 95% of the time ... that lookout, if any at all, is sitting up in the air-conditioned wheelhouse of the vessel chatting with the wheelman ... drinking 'coffee'. 'Supposedly' also, they are watching their radar. With any kind of sea condition ... the sail-boats don't show up unless they have a radar reflector. And forget it with a kayak. Lighting off a STROBE in a 'sea lane' will almost certainly catch someone's attention ... and that is the object of the exercise. LET THEM KNOW YOU ARE THERE! Strobe light, VHF communication, Flare pistol with a white parachute flare. The same thing applied to the thinking when the cruisers started using EPIRBS ... long before they became regular requirements on certain vessels. If my boat is 'sinking' ... I do not care if the SAR people or some aircraft flying over thinks I am a 'downed aircraft' ... I want help ... and I want it ASAP. Remember, the larger the vessel .. the longer it takes it to react, stop and / or maneuver. And, with a tug .. when he stops 'forward motion' and is towing a barge or a series of barges .. he loses all 'control' ... he might manage to avoid you himself .... but that barge that just went totally 'crazy', now controlled by 'wind and current' only will certainly give you something to think about. And the tug is also worried about that barge running over him. If the decission is to avoid hitting a recently 'spotted' or identified kayak with possibly one or two persons ... or being run over by a huge ocean barge himself ... and risking not only his vessel but his entire crew ... 'guess who loses' ...... Bottomline ... identify yourself in any way you can .. as soon as you can. Illegal or not. I doubt that any Coast Guard guy is going to fine you or even spank your hand. Regards, Capt. Donald R. Reid *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 3/9/2001 8:50:44 PM Eastern Standard Time, yakfish_at_pacbell.net writes: > Or stay off the water at night! But do > not just turn on your strobe because it's simpler and cheaper than real > running lights. It's a bad idea, and you could harm the safety of others in > the future. > Mark is absolutely right. A strobe is a distress signal only. In the SAR business, we use them to visually identify persons in distress. That's all they're for. I haven't followed much of this thread because I participated in the last five or six "brand new" visibility-at-night threads. But as a former SAR pilot, you are risking lives --- including the lives of the SAR drivers who will come out to save you and put themselves in harms way to do so --- and you are usurping the value of strobes to others for your own personal benefit. If the idea of paddling with strobes is appealing, why not try adding a large set of blue strobes to your YakRak and a fire truck horn in your grill. You will definitely be noticed. It's roughly the same thing as paddling with strobes. Jack Martin *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
----- Original Message ----- From: <JCMARTIN43_at_aol.com> > > > Or stay off the water at night! But do > > not just turn on your strobe because it's simpler and cheaper than real > > running lights. It's a bad idea, and you could harm the safety of others in > > the future. > > > Mark is absolutely right. A strobe is a distress signal only. In the SAR > business, we use them to visually identify persons in distress. White strobes are only a distress signal in inland waters, not international ones. That's right in the Rules book; technically no one comes to the aid of a strobe in international waters although I expect SAR will do so anyway. The definition of what constitutes inland and international often has a strange logic to it but can be followed. In any case, the areas are defined in the books. One of the discussions here in NYC about better lighting is the possibility of issuing a local USCG order that a pulsating/flashing light (strobe-like) will no longer be a distress signal but rather a running light for use by hand powered craft. Within that possibility the flashing light used for such a purpose might be a specific color, say yellow. There is virtually no argument that a good solution to the potential problem of being seen in a place like NYC (with so much background light noise) is to have a pulsating light of some kind in order to stand out. The CG has the power to just say that locally such and such a flashing light color can from now on (or in a trial period) be used as navigational lights on a kayak. That is my understanding from the CG officers who have been at the meetings. When strobes came up as a possibility, they did not protest or faint in shock, nor did pretty senior commercial interests officials. They are all willing to think outside the box. So it may be possible. I guess this may be a good time to stress that a strobe is a flashing light of quite some intensity, blindingly so. You can still have a flashing light that is not a strobe. Until the CG says we can do this however, strobes are verboten. But what happens if someone is in a bad night situation in his/her kayak in which it is either set off the strobe or be run over, then what is the call? I don't mean that you set out with the strobe turned on for a leisurely deliberate night paddle. I mean you are caught out in traffic in the dark, your ordinary lighting doesn't seem to be working to get you noticed to an oncoming vessel, and you are in the unfortunate position of being in a hardshell that you could not have earlier knocked down like a folding kayak and taken a subway/taxi back (apologies for that "moral" point :-)). You may need to set off the strobe. Remember that while the Navigation Rules have very specific protocols on a whole list of situations, ultimately there is a statement in there that, to paraphrase, you do all you can to avoid a collision. Say you are captaining a ship that is going to go by an oncoming ship. The rule is you pass port side to port side. But if suddenly the other guy goes in the wrong direction, you don't just keep your course because of the port-to-port passing rule. You take whatever course avoids a collision. The same logic, by extension, could arguably hold for that judicious use of a strobe. But that is an extreme case. I would opt to knock down my kayak and taxi home rather than get caught in the dark without sufficient light. Again please don't say that Ralph is advocating using a strobe at night (if you do, say it is the other Ralph, Ralph Hoehn, who is advocating that ;-) ). I mean it only as a last minute move to avoid a disaster. ralph -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024 Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com "Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag." ----------------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Just to add a little more fuel here, strobes are "considered" visual distress signals (VDS) but do not qualify for the VDS requirement for night signals. (As manually propelled craft, we are not obligated to carry day signals, but we are required to carry officially certified [CFR ...] night signals.) Pyrotechnics and the now standard floating beacon that visually flashes an S-O-S qualify for night signals, and must be carried by kayakers at night. There's really no ambiguity in these CFRs or in the Federal Law on which they're based. The actual language about strobes states: "Under Inland Navigation Rules, a high intensity white light flashing at regular intervals from 50-70 times per minute is considered a distress signal. Such devices do NOT count toward meeting the visual distress signal requirement, however." To Ralph's point, "Regulations prohibit display of visual distress signals on the water under any circumstances except when assistance is required to prevent immediate or potential danger to persons on board a vessel." Clearly, if you're about to be demolished by a harbor tug, try to resemble a large Christmas tree as quickly as possible. Jack Martin *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Maybe the solution for HPW (Human Powered Watercraft) would be to have a very visible and attention-grabbing lighting system that is *outside* the regs. Flashing lights are much better at grabbing one's attention, so Ralph's point is a good one. Jack's post presents the regs, so why not make a flashing (dare we say strobe?) light for HPW that flashes at a rate of 20-30 times per minute? Or maybe better yet - since white, red, and green are colors normally associated with nighttime marine navigation, a color or color scheme that is totally different could be used to identify HPW - perhaps alternating blue/yellow, purple/pink, or whatever LEDs are commercially available in different colors. If the flashing pattern (alternating colors, or alternating colors with dark segments between each), duration (frequency of 20/min, 40/min, or ramping from 20 to 40 and back again, or alternating 2 and 4 second 'on' cycles with 1 second 'off' cycles in between), and color combinations (as noted above) for maximum attention grabbing characteristics can be determined, then perhaps, as Ralph suggests, a new 'standard' can be developed for HPW - without making special exceptions from the already-existing regs. Of course, the question of how to deploy the light would still be an issue - on the bow, on the paddler's head or back, or on the stern? Or in combination with the red/green nav lights on the bow? Too many possibilities..... I would still prefer to carry a bright light that I can shine in the direction of the captain whose attention I need to grab, and would also prefer to still use the red/green bow nav light in heavy traffic, which communicates directional information to captains in a 'language' they understand. Regards, Erik Sprenne Ralph Diaz wrote: > One of the discussions here in NYC about better lighting is the possibility > of issuing a local USCG order that a pulsating/flashing light (strobe-like) > will no longer be a distress signal but rather a running light for use by > hand powered craft. Within that possibility the flashing light used for > such a purpose might be a specific color, say yellow. Jack Martin wrote: > The actual language about strobes states: "Under Inland > Navigation Rules, a high intensity white light flashing at regular intervals > from 50-70 times per minute is considered a distress signal. > *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
While we design our own personal color schemes and frequencies of flashing lights, maybe it would be worth visiting the idea that staying well clear of shipping lanes while in kayaks is another viable alternative. That's days, too. We are tiny, tiny targets out there, folks. I've flown for hours in Ralph's environment --- the brightly lit night sky of New York --- with both Coast Guard and Navy SAR aircraft, and it's really, really hard to see big things like Whalers and larger cruising boats, especially at night (although night does tend to cut down on some visual clutter, assuming a foundering vessel still has lights or radios). We are not visible, as low in the water as we are, and radar is totally useless unless we're carrying an effective reflector on a mast. And that can be less than effective in any sort of sea state, unless the mast is higher than the boat is long! Somebody else stated it well --- and I've lost the message --- but let's just stay clear of the shipping lanes and the harbor traffic unless we have to do a channel crossing. There's plenty of shallows where we can paddle but most powered or sailing craft can't go. The idea that we're safe if we look like a radio-emitting Christmas tree with "chasing" tree lights and pink and purple strobes is interesting, but all it's really going to do is to distract and confuse the people we most want to notice us and understand who and where we are. We're a lot better off just staying out of the way whenever and wherever possible. Or maybe we just stay out of the way --- period. Jack Martin *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
----- Original Message ----- From: <JCMARTIN43_at_aol.com> > While we design our own personal color schemes and frequencies of flashing > lights, maybe it would be worth visiting the idea that staying well clear of > shipping lanes while in kayaks is another viable alternative. That's days, > too. We are tiny, tiny targets out there, folks. I've flown for hours in > Ralph's environment --- the brightly lit night sky of New York --- with both > Coast Guard and Navy SAR aircraft, and it's really, really hard to see big > things like Whalers and larger cruising boats, especially at night (although > night does tend to cut down on some visual clutter, assuming a foundering > vessel still has lights or radios). We are not visible, as low in the water > as we are, and radar is totally useless unless we're carrying an effective > reflector on a mast Jack is so right on this for both day and night paddling. I have thought both long and hard as well as written extensively on dealing with traffic for my newsletter (based on the assumption that folding kayakers are often urban paddlers, ergo, have a need to know how to behave around big boats). I even have a presentation on it that doesn't seem to have any takers (I've given it once or twice in a less than ideal setting) among symposium organizers. In my writing I came up with the 10 Commandments of Paddling In Traffic. Commandment One was to do every thing you can to be visible. Commandment Two was to assume that you are invisible no matter what you did to fulfill the first commandment! Beyond that, your greatest safety lies in knowing traffic patterns and being able to read where a boat is going vis-a-vis your own course; that old angle-of-bow test. This can be tricky but is highly doable. Here in NYC a big problem are the ferries. Our ferry company, New York Waterways, is constantly adding new routes and new terminals (some are small and inconspicious). So if you see a ferry in your vicinity you don't aways have a sure idea of where it will go in relation to you. At times, some kayakers have been sitting out a ferry's passage only to find that they are in its path because over the winter a new ferry slip has been created! This happened in a comical standoff between one local paddler and the tourist ferry that goes to the Statue and Ellis Island. But even if you stay on the edges and don't cross the harbor or Hudson River, you still need to be careful. Ships move out of slips all along the edges from marinas, ferry terminals, and just sightseeing small motorboats hopscotching in among piers along Manhattan's shoreline. You get little or no warning that something is pulling out. An example is the Staten Island ferry, which is a high pier post slip where you can't see it. It fills that slip. When the ferry pulls out, it gives its whistle toot as it stern passes the end pier posts; i.e. it is already in the channel when you hear the sound! At that point, it would be too late for any small vessel such as a kayak or small cabin cruiser to avoid contact. You proceed past those spots with extreme caution giving the terminal a wide berth after doing some mental calculations about the ferry's schedule frequency. One other local effort, other than the lights pilot program, is an attempt to mark the charts with arc circles denoting those alert zones in front of ferry slips and the like. If we can get this all together, we will have a chart marked with these (and ferry routes, etc.). Chart and map making by the government is now electronically generated and it is so easy for them to put such overlays on in new map/charts and even to get extensive statements about traffic into the white space at the bottom of the charts. In traffic paddling, you are as safe as your awareness, vigilence and savvy. ralph diaz -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024 Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com "Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag." ----------------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
ralph diaz wrote: > > In my writing I came up with the 10 Commandments of Paddling In Traffic. > Commandment One was to do every thing you can to be visible. Commandment > Two was to assume that you are invisible no matter what you did to fulfill > the first commandment! Being also a motorcyclists I (we) also follow these same two rules. But with the modification of your Commandment Two as follows: Commandment Two: (Choose either a or b and ride accordingly) a) assume you are invisible to all other vehicles and you maybe hit by any of them accidently. or b) assume every other vehicle can see you. And they all intend to hit you intentionally if physically possible. Choose the one which you think offers the highest probability of allowing you to continue to walk the earth and ride accordingly. Or in the case of kayakers. Substitute water traffic and paddle accordingly. Later.... David *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
JCMARTIN43_at_aol.com schrieb: SNIP: > While we design our own personal color schemes and frequencies of flashing > lights, maybe it would be worth visiting the idea that staying well clear of > shipping lanes while in kayaks is another viable alternative. SNIP I agree with you - on principal. I won't ride on the highway with the bike, and I will stay clear of the shipping lanes with the kayak. If I can. But when I paddle out of the Weser estuary for instance, I _have_ to cross the shipping lane just before Bremerhaven, because the shipping lane touches the quaiwall and pier of Nordenham harbor, giving no legal space for kayaks. I than _have_ to pass the Bremerhaven harbor entrance and cross the shipping lane again. These are the situations, where I will turn on my white light, if necessary my flashing light as well. And I have a white flare well prepared. I cannot avoid crossing the shipping lanes here or in and other rather busy areas, not by day and not by night. And if I want to take advantage of a ful tide, there are days with tidal situations you have to start in the dark. Mit freundlichem Gruss George *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Jack Martin wrote: > While we design our own personal color schemes and frequencies of flashing > lights, maybe it would be worth visiting the idea that staying well clear of > shipping lanes while in kayaks is another viable alternative. > No disagreement. As I was the one who suggested the possible use of alternate color schemes, perhaps I didn't explain myself as clearly as I could have. Ralph Diaz started this discussion with his 3/6 post describing the nighttime visibility tests that he will be participating in. That led to a discussion of whether or not to use a flashing white strobe, since that can be considered as a distress signal by some people, in some location, some of the time. Cap't Don Reid perhaps stated it the most succinctly when he said "LET THEM KNOW YOU ARE THERE" (if you find ourself in the midst of bigger boats), before adding sage advice about the relative size of ships, maritime law, and barges' need to maintain headway to have directional control. My comment was merely a suggestion that perhaps other color schemes and flashing patterns could be used to indicate that a craft is a human powered watercraft rather than having the CG issue a decree that a flashing light in *some* inland water isn't a distress signal. It was also meant as a suggestion that if a study on nighttime visibility were to be done, that perhaps some 'outside the box' colors and flashing patterns could be considered. I did not mean to imply that kayakers could or should light themselves up and paddle the shipping lanes with impunity. I apologize if my post was construed as suggesting this. > We're a lot better off just staying out of the way whenever and > wherever possible. Or maybe we just stay out of the way --- period. > Concur. And to this I would add that we should all have 'swivel heads' with 360 degree vision whenever on the water, *especially* when we *must* cross traffic lanes - and the judgement to know to avoid such crossings when there's even a remote possibility of be ing run over. Regards, Erik Sprenne *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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