In a message dated 4/27/01 5:47:25 PM, ashton_at_tundra.org writes: << I personally believe that if I am organizing a trip, that is to say, pulling it together, I have an obligation to ensure certain minimum levels of safety and communication. >> I agree, in theory. The problem manifests itself in practice. As an individual or group works towards providing these minimum levels of safety and communication, they expose themselves to someone else's definition of said minimum levels. This exposure can lead to serious threats relative to liability issues when the inevitable mishaps occur or the person with the alternative definitions is voicing them in a court of law. << I believe it's my responsibility to ensure that we have an adequate mix of experienced and novice paddlers, and that it's my responsibility to ensure that there is first-aid gear somewhere in the fleet. I also believe it's my responsibility to play liaison between the various groups of paddlers, and let the fleet know that we are, de facto if not de jure, all together in this endeavor. I suppose this opens me up to liability, but there are insurance forms for that; my basic take is that if I am organizing a trip, whether it's no-leader or led, it is absolutely, positively incumbent upon me and *nobody else* to make sure that we have our proverbial <deleted> together. >> While I agree completely with your last statement, this shepherding of other paddlers can lead them into a false sense of security. By insulating people from these realities, do we stunt their learning? I am not an emergency medical anything, but I share your sense of responsibility for all things within my sphere of influence. If our sense of responsibility is similar, maybe too is our learning experience that produced this. I did everything wrong, as I was learning about every adventure sport to which I was drawn. Oh I tried to be prepared, but ignorance of the potential for life threatening situations, kept me relying on the grace of god to survive without serious injury. What I did learn, very quickly, was the difference between owning the right gear and knowing how to use it properly. The club I paddle with offers both led trips "in season" and leaderless trips off-season. "In-season" we cater to the newer, sometimes slower, sometimes less adventurous paddlers. In the "off-season" we cater to no one. Every paddler is responsible for recognizing their own limits and managing them. We wont leave a friend alone to fend for himself. But neither do we downgrade our trips to accommodate someone that should not be there. We don't have to, no one in the group would be there if they could not handle the conditions and mileage. We do make allowances for good paddlers having "off days" or equipment issues. But basically, the "off-season" is when the leaders can relax, go into auto-mode and enjoy themselves. That being said, each person prepares and conducts themselves as if they were paddling alone, with no one to help them. In some cases the conditions are such that assisted rescues would be very difficult and dangerous. So each of us plans to rely only on ourselves for our own safety. We just happen to all paddle in the same area close enough to talk while we all paddle toward the same lunch spot. So in a sense, far from being leaderless, these trips are made up of only leaders. Respectfully, Jed *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 4/27/2001 5:04:01 PM Eastern Daylight Time, FoldingBoats_at_aol.com writes: > I interpret that as meaning that if one gets there and gets along with the > people that are already there fine, if not, do something else. > > One is free to "pre-negotiate" if one contacts like-minded paddlers or the > initiator of a particular trip ahead of time, of course, but no-one is > under any obligation to make special provisions to paddle with anyone just > because they turn up (and the same is true in reverse, of course!!). > > If one doesn't fit in for any reason or feel uncomfortable with the > prevailing conditions at launch (or with the way they are likely to > develop) or one is simply "less qualified", then one should have the good > sense not to go out with that particular group on that particular trip. > > Ralph (Hoehn) wins. At least that's how we did it in ANorAK days. This is no-fault paddling, folks. Nobody's in charge. Anarchy could reign, but I never saw it happen. Tell you what did happen --- and it happened on that Strawberry Banks trip, in fact. I was out in Hampton Roads --- which can get a little gnarly when the tide and wind don't get along --- with a bunch of good paddlers, all lots better than me. We were all having fun getting clapotis-clobbers and finding ourselves on top of pillows and even the odd standing wave, and, all of a sudden we were busted by the Coast Guard! They couldn't believe we were actually enjoying the ride --- and, in truth, I'm not sure we all were. So, with a pair of blue-light special forty-footers "escorting" us in to the shallows, we got into even nastier water. I wound up falling off the edge of a boomer into a hole that looked like Moses had just raised his staff at the wrong time, and I could swear I saw bloody-hell Australia in the bottom of this big airpocket that used to be 20 feet of water! As I approached what I figured would be a nasty ending to the forward half of my Pintail, Moses dropped the stick and there was water there. A whole lot of water --- like more than before. And it was coming up to meet me. And it did! With the bow down about 90 degrees, this mini-haystacks comes to greet me, and I did the ugliest face plant I've ever seen, let alone attempted. Somehow the brace --- which was strangely about 90 degrees out of phase, too --- worked and the dry side stayed up --- certainly not dry. At that point, I think I suggested to Dan Winters --- the local, no-fault, non-organizer of this weekend --- that my sinuses had just taken on several percent of the volume of the water in Hampton Roads, and I thought I might like to turn back. Well, I felt like the turn pylon in a two legged race! Without anybody saying "well, okay, I guess ..." the entire gaggle had flipped around through braced turns and were all going by me so fast I couldn't tell them apart. Kinda looked like everybody had decided that their fun meters had run to red and were looking for any kind of excuse to head back, but nobody would say a word. That's what can happen on a trip like that, but it's still a great, non-confrontive way to paddle. You don't have to sign anything. If there are people who want to go up back creeks and look for piles of otter poop on stumps, that's cool. If there are idiots like me who would probably have been better off as poop-scouts that day, well they (I) learned another lesson. Don't try to over-diagnose the deal --- it's just an interesting way to get a bunch of paddlers together, and if ten newbies show up, the guy who posted the note turns coach for the day. No big deal. Jack Martin *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Hi! I've taken a good bit of fire in some local groups for suggesting that there is a certain responsibility inherent in organizing a trip. And I imagine I'll take some more here, but I've got plenty of skin. ;) Let me explain what I mean by responsibility, before I must needs don flameproof wetsuits, etc. :> I personally believe that if I am organizing a trip, that is to say, pulling it together, I have an obligation to ensure certain minimum levels of safety and communication. I believe it's my responsibility to ensure that we have an adequate mix of experienced and novice paddlers, and that it's my responsibility to ensure that there is first-aid gear somewhere in the fleet. I also believe it's my responsibility to play liaison between the various groups of paddlers, and let the fleet know that we are, de facto if not de jure, all together in this endeavor. This means gently reminding the speedy that there are others along who are not so speedy, and that occasional patience will be gratefully accepted. It also means soothing the concerns of the not-so-speedy that they'll be left behind by the speedy, and encouraging them to do their best, but not to wind up doing their worst by trying to do their best. I suppose this opens me up to liability, but there are insurance forms for that; my basic take is that if I am organizing a trip, whether it's no-leader or led, it is absolutely, positively incumbent upon me and *nobody else* to make sure that we have our proverbial <deleted> together. I will make the point that I'm an EMT and firefighter by training (and occasionally profession), which I would wager has much to do with my opinions. I just believe that any situation in which you allow everyone to "take care of themselves" usually winds up being the situation in which you *really*, *really* wish you'd done some rudimentary organizational and procedural groundwork, and that one person somewhere was at least nominally "in charge". Again, my USD$.02 (very nearly CDN$.03, and NZ$.048, so I shall expect more briskness from those quarters ;) ) .ashton On Fri, 27 Apr 2001 JCMARTIN43_at_aol.com wrote: > Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2001 17:47:54 EDT > From: JCMARTIN43_at_aol.com > To: FoldingBoats_at_aol.com, paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net > Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] No-Fault Paddling Get-togethers > > In a message dated 4/27/2001 5:04:01 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > FoldingBoats_at_aol.com writes: [snipped] > Ralph (Hoehn) wins. At least that's how we did it in ANorAK days. This is > no-fault paddling, folks. Nobody's in charge. Anarchy could reign, but I > never saw it happen. Tell you what did happen --- and it happened on that > Strawberry Banks trip, in fact. [snipped] > way to get a bunch of paddlers together, and if ten newbies show up, the guy > who posted the note turns coach for the day. No big deal. > > Jack Martin *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 4/27/2001 6:43:29 PM Eastern Daylight Time, ashton_at_tundra.org writes: > > I've taken a good bit of fire in some local groups for suggesting that > there is a certain responsibility inherent in organizing a trip. And I > imagine I'll take some more here ..... I'd be very surprised if you do, Ashton. This is PaddleWise! My points, if there were any, were to do with having a group of paddlers like those in ANorAK (Association of North Atlantic Kayakers) who generally were seasoned and solid, experienced paddlefolk. That's as opposed to how "organized" trips need to be run, as you pointed out. No argument here --- you're absolutely right: "trips" need leaders, and leaders have accountability and responsibility. Thing is, most of the people who went on ANorAK outings were already trip leaders, and there was a casual assumption that folks would take care of themselves and each other. But your points are well taken, and I doubt you're going to see flickers from this gaggle, let alone flames. Jack Martin *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
SeaKayakNH_at_aol.com wrote: > That being said, each person prepares and conducts themselves as if they > were paddling alone, with no one to help them. In some cases the conditions > are such that assisted rescues would be very difficult and dangerous. So each > of us plans to rely only on ourselves for our own safety. We just happen to > all paddle in the same area close enough to talk while we all paddle toward > the same lunch spot. So in a sense, far from being leaderless, these trips > are made up of only leaders. I really think you guys are fooling yourselves. I think, as an aggregate, your group of "leaders" is more likely to tackle risky stuff than would be the "average" person among you __if alone__. I've seen this sort of dynamic operating among ice climbers when "parallel soloing" a route. Yeah, if asked if this is true, I bet most of your group of "leaders" would dispute my claim. But, I bet if we looked at __your behavior__ when grouped loosely versus __your behavior__ when alone, we would find greater willingness to paddle close to boomers, diddle in surge channels, side-surf over shallows, etc., when loosely grouped. I believe it is only the truly demented amongst us who can escape the psychological effect of the "comfort" of being part of a herd. Jed, if you have not done so yet, take a look at the Target Risk stuff Winters (and others) have pointed us at. I think each of us adjusts his/her risk level to something she/he feels "comfortable with" and that the presence of others makes each of us feel a _leeetle_ more comfortable, on the average, and so we try trickier stuff when others are around. I know this is the way I operate. In short, I don't believe any one of us is wholly objective in matching the riskiness of a paddle to our own naked abilities. We are influenced by the presence or absence of others (of equivalent ability). Jed, I challenge you to "stand aside" now and then and assess the behavior of your group of leaders the next time you all do one of your "off season" paddles and look for this effect. I'll be interested in what you report back to the Paddlewise crowd. -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 4/28/01 7:06:32 AM, dkruger_at_pacifier.com writes: << I think, as an aggregate, your group of "leaders" is more likely to tackle risky stuff than would be the "average" person among you __if alone__. I've seen this sort of dynamic operating among ice climbers when "parallel soloing" a route. >> I don't dispute your assertion. I believe I have felt and continue to feel a greater sense of comfort being in the company of these similarly minded paddlers. Is there something wrong with that? I went WW paddling today, my 3rd time on the river. It was great not to have to worry about anyone but myself. It was great to have other people looking out for me, telling me where to go, what to avoid. But the best thing was that I was totally thrashed and never stressed the group because my sea skills had left me with a reliable roll that worked very well in the turbulent currents. I pushed myself way beyond my comfort level because the risks seemed manageable. Had I been alone, or with people I knew less well or trusted less, then I would not have taken the chances I did. << Jed, if you have not done so yet, take a look at the Target Risk stuff Winters (and others) have pointed us at. I think each of us adjusts his/her risk level to something she/he feels "comfortable with" and that the presence of others makes each of us feel a _leeetle_ more comfortable, on the average, and so we try trickier stuff when others are around. I know this is the way I operate. >> I'll love to look at it, but I missed the link. If someone would be so kind as to repost the link, I'll check it out right away. << Jed, I challenge you to "stand aside" now and then and assess the behavior of your group of leaders the next time you all do one of your "off season" paddles and look for this effect. I'll be interested in what you report back to the Paddlewise crowd. >> No need to wait, Dave. I believe I understand your point and I agree with it. But I never said we didn't take greater risks. It seems my comment about "each of us paddling as if we were alone" is the part to which you disagree. Allow me to change that to "we prepare ourselves as if we were paddling alone, bringing whatever safety gear we would bring as a leader. Having no need for someone else to lend us gloves or water or a spare paddle or any other piece of gear." The point of my post was personal responsibility. Not that we didn't need each other but rather that we planned not to need assistance. And this planning not to need assistance left us with little need for a leader per se. But someone is always the most seasoned and/or has the Alpha male mentality. I didn't see that as a problem Sure we take greater risks when we're together, exactly because we only have to worry about ourselves and not someone that does not know their limits. Or maybe it's just more testosterone poisoning. Do we think we are warrior gods? Hardly, but after a season of leading beginners on their first trips it's nice to be able to relax and paddle with people that won't ask anything of you. Yes, we take greater chances. That's the whole point. This is when we get to work on our paddling skills. I don't think it makes us better or worse than anyone else. But it is how we relax, it's how we improve and grow as paddlers. It's how we bond. Respectfully, Jed *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
----- Original Message ----- From: <SeaKayakNH_at_aol.com> To: <paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net> Sent: Saturday, April 28, 2001 4:56 PM Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] No-Fault Paddling Get-togethers snip > I'll love to look at it, but I missed the link. If someone would be so > kind as to repost the link, I'll check it out right away. > snip http://pavlov.psyc.queensu.ca/target/index.html Anyone with experience in this field care to comment on the validity of the theory of risk homeostasis. The link references a publication date of 1994. What has changed in this field in the interim? Have the findings of more recent studies supported this theory? Is the theory readily transferable to other areas such as rock climbing and kayaking? If applicable, any opinions on how this theory effects risk associated with kayaking? According to this publication: It also seems hard to comprehend why these rates are not much influenced by the visible progress in safety engineering, by prescriptive or prohibitive laws and their enforcement, by informing the public about risks, or by more successful medical treatment of accident victims who do not die instantly. and if we wish to make an attempt at reducing this misery, that attempt should be aimed at reducing the level of risk accepted by the population. How do we motivate kayakers to be safer? Thanks in advance, Craig *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
>SeaKayakNH_at_aol.com wrote: > >> That being said, each person prepares and conducts themselves as if they >> were paddling alone, with no one to help them. In some cases the conditions >> are such that assisted rescues would be very difficult and >>dangerous. So each >> of us plans to rely only on ourselves for our own safety. We just happen to >> all paddle in the same area close enough to talk while we all paddle toward >> the same lunch spot. So in a sense, far from being leaderless, these trips >> are made up of only leaders. > >I really think you guys are fooling yourselves. > >I think, as an aggregate, your group of "leaders" is more likely to tackle >risky stuff than would be the "average" person among you __if alone__. I've >seen this sort of dynamic operating among ice climbers when "parallel soloing" >a route. > >Yeah, if asked if this is true, I bet most of your group of "leaders" would >dispute my claim. But, I bet if we looked at __your behavior__ when grouped >loosely versus __your behavior__ when alone, we would find greater willingness >to paddle close to boomers, diddle in surge channels, side-surf over shallows, >etc., when loosely grouped. > I agree that as soon as you get in a group you do not paddle as if you were alone. However I think there is still an advantage to the "leaderless" trip idea. It starts all the paddlers with the mind set of self sufficiency at least to some degree. I think it is all too common for paddlers joining a club paddle with a leader to join the trip with the mind set that they will be taken care of. There is a tendency to increase your risk exposure when you are paddling with a group. I also think that is the case whether there is an assigned leader or not. I feel that the "self-sufficient" mind set promoted by "leaderless" trips is a better starting point. It gives the individual more responsibility for their own safety and it also makes it easier for an individual to bail out. If you are on a "lead" trip, you need to stick with the leader. Sure a good leader will turn the whole group around if one person can not cope, but that assumes the are good and if they are good that they know how everyone feels. And the tendency is for the flock to follow the shepherd. Even if the shepherd is leading them over a cliff. I don't think either system is perfect. Probably the safest system is to only paddle with people you know. This lets you develop a system that works for you. However, this can be limiting. Nick -- Nick Schade Guillemot Kayaks 824 Thompson St Glastonbury, CT 06033 (860) 659-8847 *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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