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From: ralph diaz <rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com>
subject: [Paddlewise] Sandal/foot pedal entrapment?
Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 11:08:29 -0400
Hi, folks

Paddlewise is a wide ranging group and I hope it may have some insights on
the subject I raise below.  Basically what I have below are "talking points"
for a possible ban on sandals being proposed by someone for a specific local
trip we are having because of the possibility of a sandal being ensnarred by
a foot pedal and trapping the paddler.  A ban is being proposed based on the
real life experience of a safety coordinator.  My own view is that a blanket
ban may not really be called for because there are pedals and there are
pedals and there are sandals and there are sandals.  But it may be an
overall safety issue we may want to hash out here on Paddlewise.  And it
something that sandal wearers may want to test as suggested toward the end
of my talking points.

TALKING POINTS: SANDALS VS. PEDALS

The sandal issue is certainly real given Ken's own experience.  But the only
other such example I remember is for Tammy Venn, the publisher of Atlantic
Coastal Kayaker.  It happened to some one on one of the trips she was
guiding years ago, before she started the magazine, and she would thereafter
not allow sandals on trips she led (she no longer leads trips, I believe).

But, as I mentioned, I am unaware of any touring or instructional outfit or
club that says "no sandals."  Things may have changed, but the last time I
saw X (a tour/instruction leader) on the water, I believe she was wearing
Tevas.  To my knowledge, not one of the outfitters within 100 miles of the
Big Apple has such a restriction.  Maybe some are now saying no to sandals,
but certainly most don't have that proviso, among these some outfitters with
a stellar reputation for safety.

There are two elements involved:

1) the shape of the foot pedal

2) the particular sandal

Let's look at this one at a time:

1)foot pedal shape.  Some foot pedals have a low aspect ratio shape, i.e.
they are thin for most of their length, being more like a spatula blade
(albeit actually a bit thicker than a spatula).  Because of this, it is
possible that this type pedal can slip under the straps of a sandal, either
between footbed and foot or under one of the straps on the top part of the
foot.  Other pedals have a high aspect ratio shape, i.e. they are fat not
thin.  They have no spatula-like blade that can slip under a sandal strap at
any point; it would be like trying to shove a 2X3 piece of wood under a
strap.

2) sandal type.  Some sandals like the classic Teva have few strap anchor
points to the footbed  and, thus, large open areas between the straps.  So
it is possible with them for a low aspect ratio shaped pedal to slip between
the straps and catch the sandal.  But there are sandals that have many
anchor points such as the Alps, now owned and distributor by Teva; there is
no opening that is large enough for the end of even a low aspect ratio pedal
to poke through and catch the sandal.  The same is true of sandals put out
by Merrell and other companies that are more like a huarache, the Mexican
type sandal that is really more of a shoe with an open weave basket on it.
With these, there is no way any type pedal blade can grab on to anything.

A lot of this is a matter of perspective and determining odds of occurence.
For example, I can point to as many, if not more, incidents in which the
pull loop on spray skirts have caught on to deck fittings in a capsize or
re-entry, snaring the paddler in an awkward dangerous position.  The same
with attachments on PFDs such as whistles, knifes, overfilled pockets, etc.
snaring on to deck fittings and bungee in re-entries.  I don' t see us
saying, no pull loops on skirts or attachments on PFDs.

I think that best thing would be not to have a blanket statement about "no
sandals" but rather a warning that the paddler check  (on land!) to see if
his or her sandal has a possibility to catch on the foot pedal of the kayak
they paddle.  It may be that the person's type of pedal and type of sandal
are a recipe for potential disaster and he/she should know about it in any
event, whether they plan to paddle with the Trip or not.

My own personal experience is with the Feathercraft pedals which are quite
thick in profile and broad and with Chaco sandals which have broad straps
and more anchor points than the normal Tevas.  I have a spare set of foot
pedals here at home and just now I tried and tried and could not get the
Chacos to catch up on the Feathercraft pedals in any way.  But I have seen
other type pedals in which conceivably the pedal might catch even on the
Chacos (but I haven't tried, so, don't take this as a blanket statement).

In sum, if you are a sandal wearer as am I, as a safety consideration, see
if your sandal has even the remotest possibility of catching on the pedals
in your kayak (s).  It has been known to happen and you would not want to
find out in a wet exit, or even, when exiting off of a dock or beach.  The
latter cases could lead to an awkward exit and capsize.  The wet exit case
could be disastrous.

Again, I am not advocating blanket bans on sandals, just that you carry out
a safety check for your particular sandal and pedal.

ralph diaz

--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter
PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024
Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com
"Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag."
-----------------------------------------------------------------------



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From: John Fereira <jaf30_at_cornell.edu>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Sandal/foot pedal entrapment?
Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 12:38:39 -0400
At 11:08 AM 5/29/01 -0400, ralph diaz wrote:
>Hi, folks
>
>[a bunch of stuff snipped]
>
>I think that best thing would be not to have a blanket statement about "no
>sandals" but rather a warning that the paddler check  (on land!) to see if
>his or her sandal has a possibility to catch on the foot pedal of the kayak
>they paddle.  It may be that the person's type of pedal and type of sandal
>are a recipe for potential disaster and he/she should know about it in any
>event, whether they plan to paddle with the Trip or not.

I like this approach.  When there are too many blanket restrictions about
what one must wear,  the kind of boat that is paddle, or a specific set of 
skills one must achieve before being "allowed" to go on a trip, I think 
both the trip leaders and the people going on the trips start to forget 
what the sport is all about.  It's supposed to be fun.  What's important is 
that everyone is aware of the risks, and if a trip leader notices that 
someone is wearing sandals, or a pair of levis when the water is very cold, 
pointing out the risk will make the paddler aware of the risks and it's up 
to them whether
they want to remove their sandals, or wear clothing that isn't going to 
retain water.  Depending on conditions, even wearing a PFD might be negotiable.


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From: Kevin Whilden <kevin_at_yourplanetearth.org>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Sandal/foot pedal entrapment?
Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 10:20:46 -0700
My kayak club (university of washington) doesn't ban sandals in kayaks, but
we have an official policy that strongly discourages them for the very
reason of a potential entrapment. While Ralph makes an interesting point
that some sandals and pedals are very unlikely to become trapped, it is far
too much trouble to specify which sandal/pedal combos are 100% safe, and
which ones are not. Unfortunately, a foot entrapment while upside down in a
kayak is a very grim possibility that has a high potential for a drowning.
This ultimate penalty is not worth fooling around with, IMO. I think it's a
decision akin to wearing a helmet on a river, or a PFD on any trip.

I don't really agree with a strong blanket ban on sandals , but I will
always strongly discourage their use on any trip that I lead.  Banning
anything in kayaking is not a good idea, since kayaking  decisions really
must ultimately depend on the individual judgment of each kayaker. I
remember hearing about a blanket ban against non-bulkheaded kayaks in an NZ
kayak club, which I thought was a lousy idea because a seasock/floatbag
combo is just as safe (if not even more safe). This may not be the best
analogy however, since I doubt that anyone can make a plausible argument
that sandals are more safe than tight fitting booties.

There's also another reason why sandals are bad: they are too big! The
"footprint" of a sandal is much larger than the footprint of a bootie, and
thus sandals take up a lot more space in the kayak. For people with small
feet, this is perhaps a non-issue depending on their kayak type, but for me
with size 13 feet, it's a huge issue. I literally cannot get my feet
comfortable in my Pygmy sea kayak unless I have tight fitting booties.

Cheers,
Kevin

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From: Allan and Joyce Singleton <alsjfs_at_voyager.co.nz>
subject: [Paddlewise] Bulkheads
Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 08:54:01 +1200
 Kevin Whilden wrote

>  I remember hearing about a blanket ban against non-bulkheaded
>  kayaks in an NZ
>  kayak club, which I thought was a lousy idea because a seasock/floatbag
>  combo is just as safe (if not even more safe).

When we started sea kayaking the message  was that a sea kayak has fore and
aft bulkheads by definition - if it doesn't, it isn't a sea kayak (and
normally includes a rudder, of course <G>).

We belonged to an informal group where it was left up to the trip leader to
accept or reject any particular kayak, but never saw any rejected. Neither
did I ever see a seasock and/or floatbags in a non bulkheaded kayak, which
may explain the ban.

Allan Singleton
Hamilton NZ

Whose Southern Light double has four bulkheads.

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From: John Winters <735769_at_ican.net>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Bulkheads
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 18:01:36 -0400
Chuck wrote;

->>
>> In _Deep Trouble_ many of the accidents involved kayaks without
>> bulkheads. Can anyone give me a good reason NOT to have bulkheads in
>> a rigid kayak?

A principle of naval architecture recommends not to put more holes in the
deck than necessary. If one follows that principle to its logical
conclusion it means that hatches are less desirable than no hatches since
they are one more item that can fail and cause problems. A boat with one
compartment flooded a can be very difficult to manage. It has been shown in
some studies (provided to me by Peter Carter) that leaving out the
bulkheads while filling the under deck space with air bags and gear bags
allows water to flow slowly out of the ends which can allow the boat to
trim level and more manageable.

My own studies support that.

Most of my own kayaks have no hatches and no bulkheads. They do have
airbags and waterproof gear bags. Not only can one save lots of money by
not having hatches the number of things that can go wrong can be reduced. I
find the boat somewhat easier to load and unload through the cockpit that
is much larger than most hatches. I use a sea sock on the boats without
bulkheads and rather like it.

Not sure these are reasons why no one should ever use hatches and bulkheads
but may be sound reasons why a person might choose to do so.

Cheers,
John Winters
Redwing Designs
Specialists in Human Powered Watercraft
http://home.ican.net/~735769/




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From: Mattson, Timothy G <timothy.g.mattson_at_intel.com>
subject: RE: [Paddlewise] Bulkheads
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 15:48:04 -0700
> 
> Sorry Alex, but I think this is wrong. A non-bulkheaded boat with airbags
> will have substantially less water than a bulkheaded boat with the use of
> a sea sock. I would not recommend that anyone use simply airbags in a
> non-bulkheaded boat, because airbags can too easily float out if they are
> not properly inflated to make a tight fit. 
> 

Yuck, I can't stand sea socks.  I never realized anyone actually used those
aweful things.  You may very well be the only person on the planet who does!
:)

I gave them a serious try with my wonderful Khatsalano since the saftey
advantages are clear.  But to put it quite bluntly, they really suck.  If
you don't use the sea sock, then Alex is right.   

If you have plenty of air bags and carefully tie them in place, you don't
need a sea sock and the water you get in the boat is quite managable.  Of
course, you have to tie the aribags in place, but that's not hard.   By the
way, I also use airbags with my bulk head boats.  I even tie them in palce
inside their compartments so if my hatches fail I still have airbags.  


--Tim



[Mattson, Timothy G]  Now  
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From: sylvio lamarche <wgarden_at_cyberlink.bc.ca>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Bulkheads
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1998 00:49:23 -0700
Scott said: ...
>  You can use dry bags for most stuff, and small plastic
>boxes (ie. Pelican) for the awkwardly shaped or sharp stuff.  As far as
>shifting, I haven't taken any expeditions yet, but I think you could
>easily place all the stuff in first, then blow up the air bags, as
>needed, to function as corks.  The bags are tapered, so it would lock
>all the stuff in the bow and stern ends.  Also, you could use the bow
>bag as a place to rest your feet if you want.

That is what I do with my klepper and now have adapted to my Guillemot S & G.

I have a small double pulley inside the boat at bow and stern through which I pull a small rope to which my drybags are tied to, make sit real easy to load and unload.  The floatation bag is also on a rope to pull it in place and keep it there once tied off.  After it is in place I blow it up and it keeps everything nice and snug and in place no matter what conditions i go through.
        While building the S & G, I inserted a loop/hook into both ends durig my last application of epoxy through which I can pull my ropes.
                The hook/loop is a broken  open end/box end wrench with the open end in the epoxy.  Just happened to have a couple broken 1/2" open end...
                The rope is 1/8" nylon/polyester..

I figured it was easier to do it this way [ the same as the klepper] than to buid hatches as I don't know if I can do such thing with my limited skills...
        The fromt airbag does give nice rest/support for the feet.

works like a charm

Yours naturally

sylvio  lamarche
Wycliffe organic gardens
& Exotic locales all over the globe



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From: Mark Zen <canoeist_at_netbox.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Bulkheads
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1998 10:19:38 -0600 (MDT)
On Thu, 8 Oct 1998, K. Whilden wrote:

> On Thu, 8 Oct 1998, Chuck Holst wrote:
> <snipola>
> > bulkheads. Can anyone give me a good reason NOT to have bulkheads in
> > a rigid kayak?
> > 
> > Chuck Holst
> > 
>  I am building my Pygmy without bulkheads. It is easier to get bulky items
> into the holds when don't have bulkheads. Bulky items I like to carry are
> my dutch oven, and especially, my Djembe (african hand drum). 

when i tried to go on a spring trip this year, i decided i'd use a kayak
instead of my canoe, and couldn't get my tent poles through the hatches,
but could have put it in through the cockpit if i had no bulkheads!!

ah, the joys of touring in an open canoe ;-)

mark

#------canoeist[at]netbox[dot]com----http://www.diac.com/~zen/mark ----
#
mark zen                      o,    o__              o_/|   o_.
po box 474                   </     [\/              [\_|   [\_\
ft. lupton, co 80621-0474 (`-/-------/----')      (`----|-------\-')
#~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~
http://www.diac.com/~zen/paddler  [index to club websites i administer]

Rocky Mtn Sea Kayak Club, Colorado River Flows, Poudre Paddlers
The Colorado Paddlers' Resource, Rocky Mtn Canoe Club Trip Page 
--
Fortune:
"In a world without fences, who needs 'Gates'"
   -- Scott McNealy

"In a world without walls, who needs 'Windows'"
   -- Dave Livigni


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From: Hal Levine <hlevin_at_jlc.net>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Bulkheads
Date: Fri, 09 Oct 1998 12:37:48 -0400
Another good advantage of bulkheads is if you adjust your roof rack
saddles to be at the bulkheads you can really tighten the hold down
straps without any deformation of the hull.
 

    Hal 

    Wilton, NH

    Power your boat with carbohydrates,
    not hydrocarbons.
         
          http://www.jlc.net/~hlevin
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From: Chuck Holst <CHUCK_at_multitech.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Bulkheads
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1998 12:17:31 -0500
>>
On Thu, 8 Oct 1998, K. Whilden wrote:

> On Thu, 8 Oct 1998, Chuck Holst wrote:
> <snipola>
> > bulkheads. Can anyone give me a good reason NOT to have bulkheads in
> > a rigid kayak?
> >
> > Chuck Holst
> >
>  I am building my Pygmy without bulkheads. It is easier to get bulky   items
> into the holds when don't have bulkheads. Bulky items I like to carry   are
> my dutch oven, and especially, my Djembe (african hand drum).

when i tried to go on a spring trip this year, i decided i'd use a kayak
instead of my canoe, and couldn't get my tent poles through the hatches,
but could have put it in through the cockpit if i had no bulkheads!!

ah, the joys of touring in an open canoe ;-)

mark
>>

*************************************************************************

You must be using a wall tent. :-) I can fit both my 4-person Eureka
Alpine Meadows tent and my new 2-person Moss Titan tent -- poles and
all -- through the bow hatch of my Romany Explorer, and that hatch is
not as big as some.

Chuck Holst

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From: <dldecker_at_mediaone.net>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Bulkheads
Date: Fri, 09 Oct 1998 15:59:48 -0400
At 12:17 PM 10/9/98 -0500, Chuck Holst wrote:
>
>>>
>On Thu, 8 Oct 1998, K. Whilden wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 8 Oct 1998, Chuck Holst wrote:
>> <snipola>
>> > bulkheads. Can anyone give me a good reason NOT to have bulkheads in
>> > a rigid kayak?
>> >
>> > Chuck Holst
>> >
>>  I am building my Pygmy without bulkheads. It is easier to get bulky
items
>> into the holds when don't have bulkheads. Bulky items I like to carry   are
>> my dutch oven, and especially, my Djembe (african hand drum).
>
>when i tried to go on a spring trip this year, i decided i'd use a kayak
>instead of my canoe, and couldn't get my tent poles through the hatches,
>but could have put it in through the cockpit if i had no bulkheads!!
>
>ah, the joys of touring in an open canoe ;-)
>
>mark
>>>
>
>*************************************************************************
>
>You must be using a wall tent. :-) I can fit both my 4-person Eureka
>Alpine Meadows tent and my new 2-person Moss Titan tent -- poles and
>all -- through the bow hatch of my Romany Explorer, and that hatch is
>not as big as some.
>
>Chuck Holst
>
  

Mark 
were your poles put together or separated, it will make a differance. 3/8"
X 10' 
will be hard to get in any kayak. he he


Dana
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From: Chuck Holst <CHUCK_at_multitech.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Bulkheads
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1998 14:34:00 -0500
>>
  Lastly, I noticed that the deck of my Artic Hawk (which is built very
light) is a bit too flexible.  The inflated bow and stern air bags help
to stiffen the whole deck.

  - Scott
>>

***********************************************************************

The deck of my Romany doesn't flex, but then, it is one of those
overbuilt British battleships. One advantage of this is that you don't
need to reinforce the deck before installing towing hardware. :-)

Chuck Holst

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From: Scott Ives <ssives_at_erols.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Bulkheads
Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1998 22:43:40 -0400
Chuck,

   Ouch!  Is that the sound of my  own words being shot back at me? ;-)

   I still say that British glass boats are overbuilt.  My Nordkapp must
have weighed close to 60 pounds!  But yes, there are some advantages to
being stout!  My Artich Hawk is not laid up too light.  I have climbed
all over the deck while practicing wet re-entry's (ok, so my roll is not
100% yet!), and there are no stress cracks or serious groans.  

   But, yes my deck does flex more than a British boat.  As I said, my
airbags act as a series of supporting arches, and they realy stiffen
things up.  However Chuck, I must stand fast on this issue:  I'll take a
flexible deck and a 15 pound weight savings anyday!

   - Scott

Chuck wrote:

> The deck of my Romany doesn't flex, but then, it is one of those
> overbuilt British battleships. One advantage of this is that you don't
> need to reinforce the deck before installing towing hardware. :-)
> 
> Chuck Holst
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From: <dldecker_at_mediaone.net>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Bulkheads
Date: Sun, 11 Oct 1998 22:09:09 -0400
At 10:43 PM 10/10/98 -0400, Scott Ives wrote:
>Chuck,
>
>   Ouch!  Is that the sound of my  own words being shot back at me? ;-)
>
>   I still say that British glass boats are overbuilt.  My Nordkapp must
>have weighed close to 60 pounds!  But yes, there are some advantages to
>being stout!  My Artich Hawk is not laid up too light.  I have climbed
>all over the deck while practicing wet re-entry's (ok, so my roll is not
>100% yet!), and there are no stress cracks or serious groans.  
>
>   But, yes my deck does flex more than a British boat.  As I said, my
>airbags act as a series of supporting arches, and they realy stiffen
>things up.  However Chuck, I must stand fast on this issue:  I'll take a
>flexible deck and a 15 pound weight savings anyday!
>
>   - Scott


 I also have a Arctic Hawk without bulkheads that weighs in at 
42 lbs.Yes its deck is flexible ,,buuutt when in the water it does not
matter as it would on land. With out the airbags I could probably stand on
the deck and crack it but in the water with the give it is fine. Similar to
a skin boat , you would not want to sit on most of them on land either . On
water they do well, which is where a kayak should be any how.

Dana
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From: Alex Ferguson <a.ferguson_at_chem.canterbury.ac.nz>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Sandal/foot pedal entrapment?
Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 08:59:43 +1200
>  I remember hearing about a blanket ban against non-bulkheaded kayaks in 
> an NZ kayak club, which I thought was a lousy idea because a 
> seasock/floatbag combo is just as safe (if not even more safe).

That's us though we'd class the seasock as "bulkheads" and if there is only 
one bulkhead there must be a reliable airbag at the other end of the kayak.

Be better to ban poorly designed pedals rather than sandals - I did wonder 
how the pedals could catch on sandals until I remembered the poor design of 
sliding pedals in North America..... OK, one of the manufacturers here 
still uses them.

>There's also another reason why sandals are bad: they are too big! The
>"footprint" of a sandal is much larger than the footprint of a bootie, and
>thus sandals take up a lot more space in the kayak.

Is this why so many North American kayaks have such voluminous cockpits?

>but for me with size 13 feet, it's a huge issue. I literally cannot get my 
>feet
>comfortable in my Pygmy sea kayak unless I have tight fitting booties.

Which is why I always paddle with bare feet, very small cockpit, low deck.

Alex
.
.

Alex (Sandy) Ferguson
Chemistry Department
University of Canterbury
New Zealand

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From: <MJAkayaker_at_aol.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Sandal/foot pedal entrapment?
Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 13:57:01 EDT
Ralph et al,

In addition to the sandal ban do they have a position on shoes with laces?  I 
think the loops in normally tied laces are an entrapment hazard also.  You 
can double or triple tie the laces until the loop is very small, but it still 
does pose some hazard.

I have the "Keepers" footrests in both of my kayaks.  I could not figure out 
how they could get caught on my sandals, but I have seen things happen when 
rolling around in the surf that I never expected could happen.  With the 
Keepers I feel a little safer since they slide right off the tracks when you 
apply any rear pressure.  In fact it is a real annoyance that they often slip 
back a notch or two if I adjust my seating position or pull my little drink 
cooler back to me.  Are my Keepers just really loose or do other people have 
this same situation?  They have never slipped forward on me without releasing 
the catch.  

I paddle in my Tevas quite a bit in the summer. When its 85 degF water and 90 
deg air booties are uncomfortable and really smell bad after a couple of 
hours paddling. During my summer visit to Washington I could not quite figure 
out why my feet were getting so cold even though I felt pretty hot in all my 
gear.  Suddenly in dawned on me that a hull against 55 deg water gets a lot 
colder than one in 80 deg water regardless of the air temp.  I wore my 
booties all the time for the rest of the trip.  

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From: Patrick Maun <pmaun_at_bitstream.net>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Sandal/foot pedal entrapment?
Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 13:18:37 -0500
I agree with not banning, but warning about possible problems. 
Personally, I either wear booties or stash the sandals on the rear 
deck and go au naturel. I find the problem to be that the stiff sole 
of sandals causes my feet to go to sleep. I need the flex. Actually, 
a good solution to numb feet is to overly flex your foot with every 
stroke. About ten minutes seems to help me when I have the problem.

Doing a reentry with sandals is no fun.

If going barefoot, remember to put some foam on the bottom of the 
boat to avoid chaffing your heels. I silicone mine in.

-Patrick
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From: Steve Cramer <cramer_at_coe.uga.edu>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Sandal/foot pedal entrapment?
Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 14:18:43 -0400
Kevin Whilden wrote:
> 
> My kayak club (university of washington) doesn't ban sandals in kayaks, but
> we have an official policy that strongly discourages them for the very
> reason of a potential entrapment. 

Same with our (University of Georgia's) WW instruction program. Except
the policy is unofficial, but it's my policy and I run the program,
so....

> ...it is far
> too much trouble to specify which sandal/pedal combos are 100% safe, and
> which ones are not.... 
> I don't really agree with a strong blanket ban on sandals , but I will
> always strongly discourage their use on any trip that I lead.  

Agreed. Classes and trips have somewhat different rules.

-- 
Steve
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From: Melissa Reese <melissa_at_bonnyweeboaty.net>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Sandal/foot pedal entrapment?
Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 12:31:26 -0700
On Tuesday, May 29, 2001, at 8:08:29 AM PDT, ralph diaz wrote:

rd> Again, I am not advocating blanket bans on sandals, just that you
rd> carry out a safety check for your particular sandal and pedal.

While I agree that outright bans are not a great idea, I don't wear
sandals while paddling. For me, they can be more than just a potential
entrapment risk, as they could also represent an increased potential for
foot injury if things get crazy. I always take a pair of sandals along for
beach wear though, as I never wear stinky neoprene booties just for
pleasure. :-)

For truly warm water paddling, there are perhaps reasonable alternatives
to full neoprene booties that do not share certain inherent risks that
sandals and/or bare feet might present...

One of the "FiveTen" water shoes might be a good solution for keeping
comfortable in warm water/weather, while providing a bit more foot
protection as well:

http://www.fiveten.net/Product/water.html

When the water is cold though - as it usually is in my local waters - I
will put up with the full neoprene "stinky booties" while I paddle - even
with very warm air temperatures. I just remove them as soon as I hit the
beach - and hope that everyone is upwind of my feet.

Melissa
-- 
PGP public keys:
mailto:pgp_key_at_yahoo.com?subject=PGP_Keys_1&Body=Please%20send%20keys

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From: <HenryHast_at_aol.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Sandal/foot pedal entrapment?
Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 21:32:34 EDT
In a message dated 5/29/01 12:14:36 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com writes:


> , I am unaware of any touring or instructional outfit or
> club that says "no sandals

Hi Ralph,  I'm aware of one on Long Island that had that policy based on a 
bad experience the owner had with a client with sandals once.
Hank

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From: Chuck Holst <cholst_at_bitstream.net>
subject: RE: [Paddlewise] Sandal/foot pedal entrapment?
Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 08:09:57 -0500
Ralph's statement was well-reasoned. Banning sandals would be gross 
overkill. One might as well ban all gear from the cockpit. I wear Tevas a 
lot in summer partly because I have a foot that's hard to fit (6-1/2EEEEE 
with a high instep and narrow heel). I'd die if I had to wear neoprene 
boots while paddling in summer, and the new water boots don't come in my 
size.

Since other people have caught sandals on footbraces, I can't deny it 
happens. Nonetheless, I have paddled in Tevas for years and never come 
close to catching a sandal on a footbrace, nor can I imagine how it might 
happen. My Romany has Yakima footbraces, and there simply isn't enough room 
in the forward end of my cockpit to move one foot far enough to the side 
for it to become entangled with the footbrace unless I withdrew the other 
foot first.

Chuck Holst


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From: <JSpinner_at_aol.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Sandal/foot pedal entrapment?
Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 22:25:49 EDT
In a message dated 5/29/01 2:01:33 PM, MJAkayaker_at_aol.com writes:

<< I have the "Keepers" footrests in both of my kayaks.  I could not figure 
out 
how they could get caught on my sandals, but I have seen things happen when 
rolling around in the surf that I never expected could happen.  With the 
Keepers I feel a little safer since they slide right off the tracks when you 
apply any rear pressure.  In fact it is a real annoyance that they often slip 
back a notch or two if I adjust my seating position or pull my little drink 
cooler back to me.  Are my Keepers just really loose or do other people have 
this same situation?  They have never slipped forward on me without releasing 
the catch. >>

I've been a bit out of the loop for a while and will actually be off the list 
altogether as of Sun. afternoon so this may have been responded to. This 
sounds VERY alarmingly dangerous unless you can reach down in rough water and 
move the peg back into a position where it is useful.
    I got into a stupid situation where one of my pegs moved too far towards 
me and I couldn't paddle with my foot on it. It was just not possible. My 
cockpit was too small for me to reach down and move it back where I could fix 
it with my feet. I had to paddle some distance with it like that until I 
could get up on the back deck to fix it. (I have to ground the boat to do 
this.)
    I was exhausted and by back hurt fiercely then and the next day. I felt 
that I was very unsafe and if I had gone over I would have been totally 
unable to roll back up as it was my onside peg that was missing. This wasn't 
an issue of the sliding pegs from a rudder but actually needing to press on 
the back side and top side at the same time to move it. 
    Moving or mushy pegs is one of the biggest reasons I object to most 
rudders, other than their lack in the aesthetics arena. Has anyone found a 
way to solve the issue of a lost peg or two? One of our guys lost a peg off 
the slide and into the drink after a blown roll. I get a bit afraid when I 
see something like this. It can happen and then what?

Joan Spinner 
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From: Michael Daly <michaeldaly_at_home.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Sandal/foot pedal entrapment?
Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 22:49:50 -0400
From: <JSpinner_at_aol.com>


>     Moving or mushy pegs is one of the biggest reasons I object to most 
> rudders, other than their lack in the aesthetics arena. 

Gas pedal type foot pegs are the answer here.  That's why I put the Seaward
rudder pedals in my Solstice.

> Has anyone found a way to solve the issue of a lost peg or two? 

Assuming you're talking about rudderless craft, you could put two footpegs on 
each track.  If the first peg breaks, just slide the second into place.  A few
ounce penalty on overall weight and a few bucks for the extra pedals.  This 
also lets two different sized folks share a kayak without needing to adjust the
pedals.

This won't solve the problem of a track breaking, though.

Mike

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From: <MJAkayaker_at_aol.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Sandal/foot pedal entrapment?
Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 23:06:54 EDT
In a message dated 6/1/01 9:29:40 PM Central Daylight Time, JSpinner_at_aol.com 
writes:


>     I got into a stupid situation where one of my pegs moved too far towards 
> me and I couldn't paddle with my foot on it. It was just not possible. My 
> cockpit was too small for me to reach down and move it back where I could 
> fix 
> it with my feet. I had to paddle some distance with it like that until I 
> 

I have found that by using my hand pump I can reset the pegs from most any 
position.  I use my foot on the back of the peg to release the catch while at 
the same time pushing forward on the peg with the end of the pump.  If the 
peg is so far back towards me that I can not use my foot to release the catch 
it means that I can reach down and move it one or two clicks forward with my 
hand and then move it the rest of the needed distance using the hand 
pump/foot method.  My newer kayak has a larger cockpit and so far I have been 
able to make the necessary re-adjustemnts by hand rather than with the pump. 

I would much prefer someway to better "lock" the pegs in position.  

Mark J. Arnold

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