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From: Blaauw, Niels <nblaauw_at_foxboro.com>
subject: [Paddlewise] breath-operated pump
Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 05:02:08 -0500
Hi paddlers,

Every once in a while my fantasy gets the better of me and pops an idea in
my mind that I can only delete with large amounts of alcohol, but even that
didn't work this time...

I don't like handpumps, since I like to keep my hands on my paddle. My legs
are too long to leave room for a decent foot-pump. I think electric pumps
need too much looking after. So what's left? Breath!

I am thinking about putting a container behind my seat with a volume of
about 3 liters, that I can fill with water from the cockpit by sucking on a
tube, and then blow the water out by blowing on the same tube. Since you
can't put much power in sucking, the container should be low in the cockpit
and fill through large one-way valves. You can put quite some power in
blowing, so blowing the container empty through a one-way valve through the
hull of the boat should be easy. On the tube that goes to my mouth I can fit
a mouth-piece of a snorkel or scuba-breathing aparatus to get a good grip.
The tube to my mouth needs some kind of safety-valve, so I am not in danger
of sucking my lungs full of water.

Of course I need to keep breathing while pumping, but most of the time I am
not completely out of breath, so I have some air to spare. I guess it will
be like blowing up an air-matress.

My question is: Has this ever been tried before, is there a problem I
haven't covered in my wild fantasies, and is there a reason why it can't
work? 

(Any outfitter out there that would like to buy the idea or a prototype?)

Niels.


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From: Nick Reiter <reiter_at_fodderty.u-net.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] breath-operated pump
Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 17:48:30 +0000
Hmm - interesting!  To fill up your container, you should consider setting 
up a siphon system: that would only require a "priming" suck. But there 
would be difficulty in getting the container at a correct height in 
relation to the water in the kayak!  Now if you could think of a way of 
using the motion of your paddles to work a pump....

Incidentally, I have a small open sailing boat which lies to a running 
mooring, and regularly gets loads of rain water in it (North West Highlands 
of Scotland gets a fair bit of rain!) A local chandler sells a great little 
pump which lies in the water next to the boat, with a tube into the boat: 
this pumps out the water through wave action (the waves move a float up and 
down). It is slow, of course, but it really does keep the boat pretty dry 
in all but the most torrential rain.

Nick




At 05:02 26/11/2001 -0500, Blaauw, Niels wrote:
>Hi paddlers,
>
>Every once in a while my fantasy gets the better of me and pops an idea in
>my mind that I can only delete with large amounts of alcohol, but even that
>didn't work this time...
>
>I don't like handpumps, since I like to keep my hands on my paddle. My legs
>are too long to leave room for a decent foot-pump. I think electric pumps
>need too much looking after. So what's left? Breath!
>
>I am thinking about putting a container behind my seat with a volume of
>about 3 liters, that I can fill with water from the cockpit by sucking on a
>tube, and then blow the water out by blowing on the same tube. Since you
>can't put much power in sucking, the container should be low in the cockpit
>and fill through large one-way valves. You can put quite some power in
>blowing, so blowing the container empty through a one-way valve through the
>hull of the boat should be easy. On the tube that goes to my mouth I can fit
>a mouth-piece of a snorkel or scuba-breathing aparatus to get a good grip.
>The tube to my mouth needs some kind of safety-valve, so I am not in danger
>of sucking my lungs full of water.
>
>Of course I need to keep breathing while pumping, but most of the time I am
>not completely out of breath, so I have some air to spare. I guess it will
>be like blowing up an air-matress.
>
>My question is: Has this ever been tried before, is there a problem I
>haven't covered in my wild fantasies, and is there a reason why it can't
>work?
>
>(Any outfitter out there that would like to buy the idea or a prototype?)
>
>Niels.
>
>
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>here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire
>responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author.
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From: Mike McNally <mmcnally3_at_prodigy.net>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] breath-operated pump
Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 11:42:57 -0600
I would advise working on system incorporating the use of compressed gas
to avoid those nasty balloon blowing sores in your cheeks.  And have you
given any thought to what your wife would think about your coming home
looking like Dizzie Gillispie?

But seriously, it's a matter of energy.  Air is light, water is heavy.
Our lungs are designed to move the light stuff.  Low energy methods can
move mountains through proper use of leverage/gearing, but do you have a
week and a half to empty the water out of the kayak.  I don't think so.

-- 

Mike McNally		mmcnally3_at_prodigy.net

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From: Jochen Grikschat <grikschat_at_surfeu.de>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] breath-operated pump - an another ideas
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 09:19:09 +0100
Nice idea Niels, really!
But needs place for the container, a tube will go to your mouth, your have
to pay attention on the blowing, you canīt talk to someone around you, you
will look like side-blowing whale :-))
Normally I need my breath for paddling efficient, but - why not?

The valve system and the output you would achieve, might be like this small
Lendal footrest-pump, often used in marathon-racing kayak, where every
little bit of water destroys the efficient speed.
How long do you might need, to empty a complete kayak?

I think, there might be 2 big problems. You have to blow quite heavy if you
want to empty the boat fastly, then you need a huge amount of breath and
pressure. Or you blow more slowly, then it takes (maybe up to) hours to
empty the kayak.

Just an idea, which hits me this moment. What if one gots a tank with
pre-pressed air? Or a little air-pressure pump which might be placed in the
rear compartment?
Or you install another type of electric pump in the rear compartment, so the
pump needs no more the direct contact to the water. But then there have to
run 2 tubes through the bulkhead, but the electric parts are no longer in
touch with water. (Safer)

Hey, just read Nicks mail. Another idea basing on the self-bailer-systems
and the old water jet vaccum pumps (often used in natural scientist labs). A
tube: one end fixed the bottom of the kayak (direct contact the bilge), the
tube runs outside with a check valve and ends under (!!!) the outside water.
You fill the tube completely with water first and when you paddle and water
runs along the outer end of the tube, the water will hold a little bit below
atmospheric pressure, so the water from inside the kayak will be pumped out,
by YOUR speed through the water. It only works, when your boat makes speed.
Just like the self bailers, but here, you wonīt have to drill a hole in the
bootom of the kayak!
I think, I have to try it by next chance on myself.

just a few thoughts
bye
Jochen G.


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From: Robert Livingston & Pam Martin <bearboat2_at_home.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] breath-operated pump
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 12:36:27 -0800
When you suck on a straw you are usually not using the muscles of your chest
but rather the muscles of your mouth. These muscles can create quite a
vacuum but they move only small volumes.

The muscles of your chest can move more volume but do not create much
vacuum. And they are not strong enough for doing much of this kind of work.

---

A chest pump would be exhausting...

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