Hi, Rev. Bob Carter reported the death of Ken Schaffer in Sitka, Alaska. For anyone out there with information, here are several key questions regarding this accident. What was the water temperature? I assume that Mr. Schaffer was wearing a wetsuit or drysuit, but we need to confirm that this was true. More important, was Mr. Schaffer wearing a hood? Was it one that covered his ears? Was he using nose clips? Cold water in the ear canal can cause vertigo, complete loss of orientation. We have reports of paddlers, normally skilled at rolling, who have been forced to bail out after capsizing. One paddler had no idea what happened after intentionally going over to do a roll at the end of a winter paddling trip. Several cold water paddlers have been found hanging beneath their boats. We run cold water workshops for sea kayakers. We ran one last weekend in Norwalk, CT. A point of discussion addressed the issue of gasping. An unprotected person in cold water will gasp uncontrollably. Under water, drowning results. Mr. Schaffer was able to do two rolls with out a problem, implying that he was wearing a wet/drysuit. I think cold water on the head won't necessarily cause gasping, unconsciousness perhaps, but not gasping. Gasping did occur, by the description given us, after the third (delayed) roll, which could have been complicated by the appearance of virtigo. That loss of orientation and balance could explain why Mr. Schaffer capsized again later on the way back to shore. We need to know water temperature and exactly how Mr. Schaffer was dressed. Weather and sea conditions do not seem to be factors in this case. Any information would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, Chuck Sutherland e-mail: skimmer_at_mail3.enter.net *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Chuck Sutherland writes: > We run cold water workshops for sea kayakers. We ran one last weekend > in Norwalk, CT. A point of discussion addressed the issue of > gasping. An unprotected person in cold water will gasp > uncontrollably. Under water, drowning results. I don't question that this cold water gasp may happen occasionally, but I do question that it is inevitable or indeed happens with any frequency. Here in Minnesota, one way of cooling off between visits to the sauna is to chop a hole in the ice and jump into the lake. I've done it myself, and quickly learned that if you don't duck your head underwater, you risk overheating it when you go back into the sauna. Yet I've neither had an uncontrollable urge to gasp when submerged in ice water nor heard of any fatalities or other incidents as a result of this practice. Now, maybe superheated skin ameliorates the gasping reflex, but I have also several times been completely submerged or upside down without a hood in cold water down to 42 degrees F. when I was not superheated, and never felt an uncontrollable urge to gasp. On two occasions I hyperventilated for several minutes after getting back into the boat (I had also been holding my breath for a long time underwater), but I have never had an uncontrollable urge to gasp. Chuck Holst *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I have experienced cold water gasp response. Regardless of the frequency or that some individuals may have avoided it, cold water gasp response occurs. Anyone exposing himself or herself to cold water immersion should be aware of the danger associated with cold shock. Craig ----- Original Message ----- From: "cholst" <cholst_at_bitstream.net> To: <paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net> Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2001 1:54 PM Subject: [Paddlewise] Cold Water Gasp snip > I don't question that this cold water gasp may happen occasionally, but I do > question that it is inevitable or indeed happens with any frequency. snip *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Does it happen immediately, e.g., in the middle of a roll? > I have experienced cold water gasp response. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
From: "cholst" <cholst_at_bitstream.net> > What I do dispute is whether the cold water gasp is truly uncontrollable in > situations where it would make a difference. In my experience -- and that of > a lot of Finns in northern Minnesota -- in the majority of cases it is not. > > In situations where the person is mentally prepared, I suggest that an > underwater gasp is rare or nonexistent. By mental preparation, I mean that > the person has chosen to immerse himself or herself in cold water, or is > accustomed to it. Obviously, if mental preparation is an important factor, What you are saying is true. The cold water gasp phenomena is controllable to some degree and can be prevented with mental prep and by becoming accustomed to cold water. It is primarily a concern for folks that are unprepared. Mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I have controlled the gasp response to prevent reflexive water inhalation. I suspect that non-swimmers unaccustomed to cold water exposure may be at the greatest risk. Given the other potential dangers associated with cold shock including increased heart rate and blood pressure, cardiac arrest, loss of consciousness and drowning, what type of practice in cold water are you suggesting? Prudence would dictate a physicians approval before someone attempted a "polar bear club" type sudden immersion in cold water. Craig ----- Original Message ----- From: "cholst" <cholst_at_bitstream.net> To: <PaddleWise_at_paddlewise.net> Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2001 12:43 PM Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Cold Water Gasp snip > What I do dispute is whether the cold water gasp is truly uncontrollable in > situations where it would make a difference. In my experience -- and that of > a lot of Finns in northern Minnesota -- in the majority of cases it is not. > > In those cases where people have gasped underwater and inhaled water, I > suggest that surprise may have been as big a factor as water temperature. In > situations where the person is mentally prepared, I suggest that an > underwater gasp is rare or nonexistent. By mental preparation, I mean that > the person has chosen to immerse himself or herself in cold water, or is > accustomed to it. Obviously, if mental preparation is an important factor, > then practice in cold water can be as important to cold water safety as > dressing appropriately, and should be a recommended part of it. > > Chuck Holst *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Craig MacKinnon writes: > I have controlled the gasp response to prevent reflexive water inhalation. I > suspect that non-swimmers unaccustomed to cold water exposure may be at the > greatest risk. Given the other potential dangers associated with cold shock > including increased heart rate and blood pressure, cardiac arrest, loss of > consciousness and drowning, what type of practice in cold water are you > suggesting? Prudence would dictate a physicians approval before someone > attempted a "polar bear club" type sudden immersion in cold water. > > Craig Basically, practicing a few rolls and rescues in cold water without a hood, at least enough to get you used to the feeling -- and your limitations. The more used to it you are, the less likely you are to panic, bail out, or miss a roll. I believe in practicing in all conditions I'm likely to paddle in. On Lake Superior, where you can have very hot days on very cold water, it is not always practical to wear a hood or heavy insulation when paddling. You should not practice alone, however, or far from shore, or wearing a T-shirt and shorts! On Memorial day weekend, when the water temperature was about 38-42 degrees, I didn't roll till we were back in the harbor at Little Sand Bay. You may be right about a physician's approval, but I don't know how many people do that before going into the lake after a sauna, and I have not heard of any sauna-related deaths in this state. I suspect it depends on your general state of health; the people I did this with were all cross-country skiers. Shoveling snow is a much bigger killer in Minnesota, if only because many more people shovel snow than jump into ice water. :-) Chuck Holst *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
What kayaking conditions would produce cold water gasp response? My experience with cold water gasp is outside of kayaking. I also practice rolling in conditions with water temperatures in the 38-42 degree range and wear appropriate immersion clothing. I have performed rolls without a hood in cold water and this has not produced a gasp response; I require something more akin to the "polar bear club". For me, rolling without a hood in cold water only tests my ability to roll under those conditions. The problem remains that someone attempting the "polar bear club" method exposes themselves to the dangers associated with cold shock. But more importantly, the person most at risk from cold shock is ignorant of the dangers, dressed inappropriately for the conditions and has never tested their individual response. Short of joining the "polar bear club", another approach is to be informed of the risk and dress appropriately for sudden cold water immersion. Craig ----- Original Message ----- From: "cholst" <cholst_at_bitstream.net> To: <PaddleWise_at_paddlewise.net> Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2001 4:39 PM Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Cold Water Gasp snip > Basically, practicing a few rolls and rescues in cold water without a hood, > at least enough to get you used to the feeling -- and your limitations. >The > more used to it you are, the less likely you are to panic, bail out, or miss > a roll. I believe in practicing in all conditions I'm likely to paddle in. > On Lake Superior, where you can have very hot days on very cold water, it is > not always practical to wear a hood or heavy insulation when paddling. You > should not practice alone, however, or far from shore, or wearing a T-shirt > and shorts! On Memorial day weekend, when the water temperature was about > 38-42 degrees, I didn't roll till we were back in the harbor at Little Sand > Bay. snip *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Craig MacKinnon writes: <Big snip> > Short of joining the "polar bear club", another approach is to be > informed of the risk and dress appropriately for sudden cold water > immersion. > > Craig I agree with everything you say, including the snipped parts. Chuck Holst *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Where's the fun in that? Now I'm going to have to start arguing with myself! ;) Best of luck with your post-sauna cold water immersions; if you aren't already, you should soon be the Zen master of sudden cold water exposure. Craig ----- Original Message ----- From: "cholst" <cholst_at_bitstream.net> To: <PaddleWise_at_paddlewise.net> Sent: Friday, November 16, 2001 1:17 PM Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Cold Water Gasp snip > I agree with everything you say, including the snipped parts. > snip *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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