PaddleWise by thread

From: Michael Daly <michaeldaly_at_rogers.com>
subject: [Paddlewise] Sponson stuff
Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2001 20:37:01 -0500
Christmas at the inlaws (Amie's family is crazier than mine!) led me to idle
away some time with a calculator and a recent issue of Sea Kayaker.

I found a web site indicating that Unca Timmy's sponsons are 40 inches
long and 6 inches in diameter.  Ignoring the shape at the end (i.e. assuming
they are a cylinder) gives a volume of 17.7 liters each side.  This provides
a maximum bouyancy of 39 lb per side (fully submerged).

Assuming a max beam of 22 inches, the center of bouyancy of the sponson
is 11 + 3 = 14 inches from the kayak centerline, which yields a maximum 
righting moment of 14 * 39/12 = 45.5 ft-lb.   (A paddle float, by comparison 
yields about 90 or so ft-lb righting moment.)  There's a bit of a fudge on
the geometry here, since I'm taking the moment arm for a level kayak and 
using the force in a fully submerged sponson (implying a heeled kayak).

The Dec 2001 issue shows the stability curve for a Viking Expedition (21.75 in. 
beam).  I look at it and compare the curves for a 150 paddler with and without
100 lb of cargo.  The difference is about 40 ft-lb.  Interesting.  I checked other
single kayaks in other issues and most show the same general trend - fully 
loaded without sponsons is similar to empty with sponsons.

The reason I did this was because I've been curious about the fact that my 
experiments with the sponsons a couple of years ago found them to not be 
particularly tremendous at stabilizing a kayak compared to unohoo's claims.
But I've had a hard time squaring my experiments with seeing a friend 
demonstrate standing in an empty kayak with sponsons.

I've done lots of playing (i.e. rolling, self- and assisted-rescue practice and
general fooling around (including paddling while standing)) in an empty
kayak, but rarely with a fully loaded kayak.  So:

Has anyone stood up in a heavily loaded kayak? is it particularly difficult
to balance?

Is 100 lb cargo much of an upper limit on typical loads? (I've never
weighed all my gear)  It sounds high to me.

Mike
PS - these numbers aren't the same as redoing the Nautilus model with and
without sponsons.  Don't quote them to friends with any built-in assumptions.
This is strictly back-of-the-envelope fooling around.

***************************************************************************
PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed
here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire
responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author.
Submissions:     PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net
Subscriptions:   PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net
Website:         http://www.paddlewise.net/
***************************************************************************
From: <Gypsykayak_at_aol.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Sponson stuff
Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2001 08:08:58 EST
If I understand you correctly....yer saying that sponsons aren't that much 
good!?

I just re-watched the Easy Rider video for the umpteenth time (hey...two 
hours of kayaks in places such as Tahiti, Belize....Puget Sound ain't bad) 
and they tout their rescue/re-entry/stabilizer system which, as far as I can 
make out involves two metal thingees screwed onto your deck that keep the 
paddle shaft in place, and then two inflatable paddlefloats (one on each 
blade).  Can anyone comment on these?

Will ER sell them to people who don't own ER boats?   (I called yesterday - 
got a machine...guess they're off in Tahiti for the holidays).

BTW, Mike, you certainly are a brave one to open this never-ending can of 
worms.

sandy kramer who is actually feeling quite chilly in Miami....after a 
scorching Xmas day, it ain't so bad....should warm up by the weekend.  Don't 
know how you northerners stand months of this weather :)

***************************************************************************
PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed
here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire
responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author.
Submissions:     PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net
Subscriptions:   PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net
Website:         http://www.paddlewise.net/
***************************************************************************
From: Michael Daly <michaeldaly_at_rogers.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Sponson stuff
Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2001 12:06:16 -0500
From: <Gypsykayak_at_aol.com>

> If I understand you correctly....yer saying that sponsons aren't that much 
> good!?

I'm saying that they aren't all that Timmy-boy claims they are.  Given his
claims, that's not saying much.  Like all rescue equipment, they have 
pros and cons.  Unca Timmy exaggerates the pros and ignores or bluffs 
away the cons. This is a disservice to his customers and to the product, 
but he doesn't seem to see it that way.

Like all reentry techniques, they require practice and without practice, 
they can be difficult to use.  For example, one test I tried was to simulate 
a panicky paddler who grabs the sponsoned kayak and tries to muscle 
his way aboard. This caused the kayak to flip rather quickly.  Like the 
paddle float rescue or assisted rescues, you have to thrust yourself 
onto the kayak and keep your center of gravity low while wiggling 
around.

Sponsons do work but they aren't magic.  They have a place in the 
kayak and canoe world as a piece of safety equipment.  They are 
not a panacea. 

> BTW, Mike, you certainly are a brave one to open this never-ending can of 
> worms.

Maybe foolish.  I'm just belatedly applying numbers to the thing to get a better
feel for how they work.  If my ideas are correct, I can understand how they 
can appear to work wonders (like allowing someone to stand in a sponsoned
kayak) while they don't allow me to get in panic-style.  

Mike

***************************************************************************
PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed
here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire
responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author.
Submissions:     PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net
Subscriptions:   PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net
Website:         http://www.paddlewise.net/
***************************************************************************
From: Matt Broze <mkayaks_at_oz.net>
subject: RE: [Paddlewise] Sponson stuff
Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 03:08:45 -0800
Mike asked:
<SNIP>>>>>>>Has anyone stood up in a heavily loaded kayak? is it
particularly difficult to balance?

Is 100 lb cargo much of an upper limit on typical loads? (I've never
weighed all my gear)  It sounds high to me.<<<<<<

Back when we began selling the first Mariner, around 1981, a competitor
started telling everybody how tippy it was. It was pretty tippy too being
all of 20.5" wide. For comparison, some thought it more stable than a
Nordkapp, but I thought it wasn't quite as stable as a Nordkapp. Anyway,
that store had a photo contest where all of the photo contest entries were
posted in their store. So I stuck about 50 pounds of rocks in the Mariner
under the float bags one cold November day and Cam shot up a roll of film of
me standing in that kayak. I was prepared to get wet with a wetsuit under my
clothes but never got wet. Because of the wind I had to stand up and get
back down to paddle back out (to good picture range) many times too.

Incidentally: On the same roll of film Cam took that day there is a picture
of me inflating one of the homemade sponsons I had made (from float bags
inflated inside sleeping bag stuff sacks). I had sewn webbing and buckles on
to the stuff sacks to affix these inflatable "sponsons" to each side of the
kayak. I even had a strap in the middle to buckle the sponsons together
under the kayak and so I could pull them down into the water for increasing
the stability. I was testing the sponson concept for the self-rescue
possibilities (and for the possibility of stabilizing the kayak for sleeping
or spending the night in it). This picture is what is known as "prior art"
in the patent game. It and several other prior uses of "sponsons" on kayaks
that are documented well prior to Sponsonman having applied for a patent on
his sponsons pretty much renders the patent useless. (It was so poorly
written as to be virtually worthless already). If anybody would like to "do
sponsons right" to make them more functional or address some of the
shortcomings of what is now available (but have been stopped by the idea
that sponsons are already patented) probably has little to worry about
(besides Tim's wrath, legal threats, and never ending written diatribes
anywhere he can't be stopped). But, even then he is more likely to skewer
himself with his own pen than damage his intended target.

But, I digress. Back to Mike's other question: 100 pounds seems like a
pretty light load to me. "Now where did I pack that kitchen sink?" Five
gallons of water weighs 40 pounds and I've often added more water than that
to my already 100 plus pound load for a trip of a week or more.

Without checking Mike's math, I'll stick my neck out and say that his
conclusions sound about right to me as to the relative stability of the
different ways of stabilizing a kayak that I have experienced.

Matt Broze
http://www.marinerkayaks.com


***************************************************************************
PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed
here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire
responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author.
Submissions:     PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net
Subscriptions:   PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net
Website:         http://www.paddlewise.net/
***************************************************************************
From: Nick Schade <schade_at_guillemot-kayaks.com>
subject: [Paddlewise] Sponson Improvement
Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 10:36:41 -0500
At 3:08 AM -0800 12/28/01, Matt Broze wrote:
>Snip
>
>If anybody would like to "do
>sponsons right" to make them more functional or address some of the
>shortcomings of what is now available (but have been stopped by the idea
>that sponsons are already patented) probably has little to worry about
>(besides Tim's wrath, legal threats, and never ending written diatribes
>anywhere he can't be stopped). But, even then he is more likely to skewer
>himself with his own pen than damage his intended target.

I'm not particularly interested in taking on the 
manufacturing/marketing/legal challenge of making a better sponson 
but it could be an interesting exercise for paddlewise to figure out 
what the "ideal" sponson would be, and how it would be implemented.

So, what are the characteristics of the ideal sponson?

How, would this be implemented?

BTW, for the purpose of discussion, let's assume sponsons are a good idea.
Nick
-- 
Nick Schade
Guillemot Kayaks
824 Thompson St
Glastonbury, CT 06033
(860) 659-8847
***************************************************************************
PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed
here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire
responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author.
Submissions:     PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net
Subscriptions:   PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net
Website:         http://www.paddlewise.net/
***************************************************************************
From: <JSpinner2_at_aol.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Sponson Improvement
Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 12:06:32 EST
In a message dated 12/28/01 10:39:01 AM, schade_at_guillemot-kayaks.com writes:

<< BTW, for the purpose of discussion, let's assume sponsons are a good idea.
Nick >>

LOL
this question actually got me to thinking about them.

Joan
***************************************************************************
PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed
here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire
responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author.
Submissions:     PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net
Subscriptions:   PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net
Website:         http://www.paddlewise.net/
***************************************************************************
From: Michael Daly <michaeldaly_at_rogers.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Sponson Improvement
Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 16:11:29 -0500
From: "Nick Schade" <schade_at_guillemot-kayaks.com>

> So, what are the characteristics of the ideal sponson?

When I tried sponsonman's product, the biggest complaint I had was
the time required to inflate.  The two sponsons have a total volume
over 35 liters, compared to a double-chambered paddle float with
only 7 or 8 liters (according to one web site - I never verified this...
I just now measured my paddle float and it's more like 17.5 litres,
so about the same as one sponson*).  The difference in time is 
significant when you're in the water.

Leaving them inflated on the rear deck increases wind load on the
kayak.  Autoinflating means expensive CO2 cartridges.  

Reducing the volume and levering them further outboard may be 
one approach.  That would move them into the category of
what I understand Sandy to be asking about - the Easy Rider
type.  Rather than use up a paddle, perhaps a light pair of
carbon fiber tubes on either side, each fitted into a socket on
the side of the kayak's hull (Teiken used to provide this on his
kayaks as an option - they took a half paddle with paddle float
in lieu of rear deck bungies holding a paddle).

For a real pie in the sky approach, how about going the Triak
route, but with the sponsons faired into the hull in the retracted
state?  


Mike

*This means my calculations about the stability of paddlefloats
on paddles in other recent posts are well underestimated.
Lesson: always verify web based information!

***************************************************************************
PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed
here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire
responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author.
Submissions:     PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net
Subscriptions:   PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net
Website:         http://www.paddlewise.net/
***************************************************************************
From: Kirk Olsen <kolsen_at_imaginelan.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Sponson Improvement
Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 17:15:58 -0500
At 10:36 AM 12/28/01 -0500, Nick Schade wrote:

>I'm not particularly interested in taking on the 
>manufacturing/marketing/legal challenge of making a better sponson 
>but it could be an interesting exercise for paddlewise to figure out 
>what the "ideal" sponson would be, and how it would be implemented.

http://www.givensliferafts.com has an enlightening video on their site of their
buoyed survival raft versus a standard raft.  

Working off that design theory I would think a better approach to a sponson would be a
pair of pair of funnel shaped tubes tubes that are weighted at the smaller opening with
a bouyant "ring" on the wide upper end of the tube.  The two support tubes would then be deployed one on each side of the kayak.  

Instead of working off the theory of increasing the beam to improve stability this would
add "ballast" to each side of the hull.

A semi quick emptying mechanism would be needed for each support funnel, this might be
accomplished by attaching a cord or strap to the lower, weighted ring, so that it could be
pulled up dumping water from the larger upper opening.

I haven't thought about how to secure the assembly to the kayak.  It might be a simple as
wrapping a connecting strap around a deck line on each side of the kayak before deploying
the funnels.

http://www.seaanchore.com has a discussion of drogues and sea anchors.

kirk



***************************************************************************
PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed
here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire
responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author.
Submissions:     PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net
Subscriptions:   PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net
Website:         http://www.paddlewise.net/
***************************************************************************
From: Michael Daly <michaeldaly_at_rogers.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Sponson Improvement
Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 18:02:23 -0500
From: "Kirk Olsen" <kolsen_at_imaginelan.com>

> At 10:36 AM 12/28/01 -0500, Nick Schade wrote:
> 
> Instead of working off the theory of increasing the beam to improve stability this would
> add "ballast" to each side of the hull.

Neat idea.  

Along those lines, why not a deployable weighted keel?    Get a long, light
tube along the keel (perhaps inside a channel which would have the side
effect of stiffening the hull longitudinally) that is hinged at one end and 
with a heavy, compact weight at the other (depleted uranium, anyone?).
The weight and tube could be teardrop shaped for minimum drag 
when deployed.  If the weight is blade-like, it would provide dynamic
damping to rolling moments as well.

When the paddler is in the water, s/he releases the tube, which swings 
down and locks into place.  Leaving it down would provide stability 
after re-entry.  If the lock yields a bit, it would handle impact, like 
rudder blades and skeg.  

There's a definite downside: seaweed. And currents.  And shallow water.

Mike



***************************************************************************
PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed
here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire
responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author.
Submissions:     PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net
Subscriptions:   PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net
Website:         http://www.paddlewise.net/
***************************************************************************
From: Mike McNally <mmcnally3_at_prodigy.net>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Sponson Improvement
Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 12:46:06 -0600
On Fri 28 Dec 2001, Michael Daly wrote:

> Along those lines, why not a deployable weighted keel?    Get a long, light
> tube along the keel (perhaps inside a channel which would have the side
> effect of stiffening the hull longitudinally) that is hinged at one end and 
> with a heavy, compact weight at the other (depleted uranium, anyone?).
> The weight and tube could be teardrop shaped for minimum drag 
> when deployed.  If the weight is blade-like, it would provide dynamic
> damping to rolling moments as well.


Dynamic damping, hmmmm..  Ok, I take it back, internal side buoyancy is 
a bad idea.  It is the realitive instability of the flooded kayak that
makes it easy to roll.  While adding internal side buoyancy would not
affect the paddling characteristics, not add much weight (half moon
shaped foam) and only occupy space otherwise (normally) unused, it would
negatively affect the rolling characteristics.  That is an unacceptable
design characteristic.

Good luck making a better spoonson Mr Daly.

-- 
Mike McNally		mmcnally3_at_prodigy.net

***************************************************************************
PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed
here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire
responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author.
Submissions:     PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net
Subscriptions:   PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net
Website:         http://www.paddlewise.net/
***************************************************************************
From: Michael Daly <michaeldaly_at_rogers.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Sponson Improvement
Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 18:38:10 -0500
From: "Michael Daly" <michaeldaly_at_rogers.com>

> Leaving them inflated on the rear deck increases wind load on the
> kayak.  Autoinflating means expensive CO2 cartridges.  

I just thought of another way to make an auto-inflating sponson.
This from thinking in terms of a Thermarest.

Make the sponsons with a long internal coil spring inside.  Open 
a valve on one end and let the spring expand, filling the tube with 
air.  This would be like those collapsible garden waste buckets
and dirty laundry hampers that have recently arrived on the scene
(Lee Valley and Ikea respectively - couldn't find online photos). 

This wouldn't create a rigidly inflated sponson, but a few puffs after 
the spring inflates it would do the trick.

Mike

***************************************************************************
PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed
here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire
responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author.
Submissions:     PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net
Subscriptions:   PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net
Website:         http://www.paddlewise.net/
***************************************************************************
From: Michael Daly <michaeldaly_at_rogers.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Sponson Improvement
Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 21:32:40 -0500
From: "Michael Daly" <michaeldaly_at_rogers.com>

> Make the sponsons with a long internal coil spring inside.  Open 
> a valve on one end and let the spring expand, filling the tube with 
> air. 

BTW, this same approach could be used for paddlefloats - 
pleated (bellowed) sides and straight ends - slot for the 
paddle blade at one end.  Spring like those self erecting
tents.   Hmmm...

Mike

***************************************************************************
PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed
here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire
responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author.
Submissions:     PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net
Subscriptions:   PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net
Website:         http://www.paddlewise.net/
***************************************************************************
From: Michael Daly <michaeldaly_at_rogers.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Sponson stuff
Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 15:10:47 -0500
From: "Matt Broze" <mkayaks_at_oz.net>

> Mike asked:
> <SNIP>>>>>>>Has anyone stood up in a heavily loaded kayak? is it
> particularly difficult to balance?
> 
> Is 100 lb cargo much of an upper limit on typical loads? (I've never
> weighed all my gear)  It sounds high to me.<<<<<<
> 
> Back when we began selling the first Mariner, around 1981, a competitor
> [...]

Thanks for the comments, Matt.
 
> Without checking Mike's math, I'll stick my neck out and say that his
> conclusions sound about right to me as to the relative stability of the
> different ways of stabilizing a kayak that I have experienced.

While I haven't worked anything out in detail, the conclusion I'm aiming
for is that if an empty kayak with sponsons is "stable enough", then
a loaded kayak is also stable enough without sponsons (and plenty
stable with sponsons).  My rough estimates suggest for several kayaks 
and sufficient load, this may be true.

If this is true, another conclusion would be that an empty kayak with 
a paddle float is as stable as a loaded kayak with sponsons!  

There are a couple of BIG assumptions here - I haven't worked out
the stability of a loaded/unloaded kayaks _without_ a paddler (the
condition where the paddler is in the water) and the condition
where the cockpit has water in it consistent with a wet exit and
recovery.  Both of these could change these conclusions dramatically.

Mike


***************************************************************************
PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed
here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire
responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author.
Submissions:     PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net
Subscriptions:   PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net
Website:         http://www.paddlewise.net/
***************************************************************************
From: <Gypsykayak_at_aol.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Sponson stuff
Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 08:48:10 EST
In a message dated 12/28/2001 6:09:08 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
mkayaks_at_oz.net writes:

<< Without checking Mike's math, I'll stick my neck out and say that his
 conclusions sound about right to me as to the relative stability of the
 different ways of stabilizing a kayak that I have experienced. >>

Matt, any comments about Easy Rider's two-iinflatable 
paddlefloats-on-each-end-of-a-paddle stabilizer that is affixed to a kayak?

sandy kramer
miami, where our 3-day "winter" is waning....:)

***************************************************************************
PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed
here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire
responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author.
Submissions:     PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net
Subscriptions:   PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net
Website:         http://www.paddlewise.net/
***************************************************************************
From: Matt Broze <mkayaks_at_oz.net>
subject: RE: [Paddlewise] Sponson stuff
Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 18:32:36 -0800
sandy kramer asked:
>
> Matt, any comments about Easy Rider's two-inflatable
> paddlefloats-on-each-end-of-a-paddle stabilizer that is >affixed to a
kayak?
>

I'm not sure how Easy Rider has adapted our two paddlefloat outrigger method
of stabilizing a kayak for towing an incapacitated paddler (or stabilizing
the kayak for fishing, sleeping, or whatever). We have advocated this
possibility for years (see our "Rescue Float" manual on our website near the
end of that manual under the heading "Kayak Stabilization").
I know Easy Rider kayaks often have a recessed slot for a paddle shaft sized
bar that can be used to raft two kayaks together and as a way to help hold
the outriggered paddle in position for a self rescue. The letter "C" after
their model names stands for "Catamaran ready" and the letter "R" stands for
"Rescue ready" (so CRX stands for Catamaran, Rescue and Expedition = hatches
and bulkheads by their definition--ready). I'm guessing that is the system
they are using to hold the paddle in place for the dual outriggers use as
well. I think I once saw their video, years ago, but don't recall that part
in it then. Maybe you have a new version of their video that I haven't seen.
If in fact what you have asked about is what we have been advocating, I'd
say it has several advantages over strap on sponsons. The one I like the
best is that (especially if you can hold the paddle from rotating or even if
can easily reposition it if it has) and you only inflate the top half of a
two chamber paddlefloat, the outriggers will only snag in the water when one
has tipped the kayak far enough to maybe need the added support they can
then provide, but, they won't add any drag to the kayak hull for most
towing, like sponsons do. Tim's sponsons are especially bad this way because
the straps under the kayak are at each end and if they are tightened down
enough to stabilize the kayak much (and not have the kayak also sliding
around inside the harness) they also are curved down at the ends--like a hot
dog--and plow up a lot of water when moving forward or backwards and (in
contrast to Tim's claims) greatly increase the drag on the kayak being towed
or paddled. If you are going to try to paddle (as opposed to being towed)
with the two sided paddlefloat outrigger (you asked about) you are going to
have to mount the paddle further rearward or cut your paddle stroke very
short with each stroke so the paddles don't try to take up the same space at
the same time...amid loud clashing noises. Then again, that just might be
good training to force one to get the paddle blade out of the water early
(as advocated by racers). You can probably use your normal deck lines (if
set up for fixed outrigger paddle float rescues) to hold your paddle well
enough to try this stabilization technique out for yourself. If you like it
or can see the potential, it will probably help if you can rig things to fix
the paddle more securely in place. There is a device called a Pad-L-Rac from
Allin Associated Products http://www.padlrac.com/ that can be adapted to
many kayaks that will hold the paddle fairly well. I don't think it would be
hard to fashion your own solution (adapted to your particular kayak) with a
few cleats and cords, if the idea appeals to you.
I especially like this for towing because with two paddler there should
already be two paddlefloats available to use on the victims kayak if each
have one for self-rescue.
Matt Broze
http://www.marinerkayaks.com




***************************************************************************
PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed
here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire
responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author.
Submissions:     PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net
Subscriptions:   PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net
Website:         http://www.paddlewise.net/
***************************************************************************
From: Wes Boyd <boydwe_at_dmci.net>
subject: RE: [Paddlewise] Sponson stuff
Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 09:31:56
At 06:32 PM 12/28/01 -0800, Matt Broze wrote:
> There is a device called a Pad-L-Rac from
>Allin Associated Products http://www.padlrac.com/ that can be adapted to
>many kayaks that will hold the paddle fairly well. I don't think it would be
>hard to fashion your own solution (adapted to your particular kayak) with a
>few cleats and cords, if the idea appeals to you.
>I especially like this for towing because with two paddler there should
>already be two paddlefloats available to use on the victims kayak if each
>have one for self-rescue.

One of the things that impresses me about my Nimbus Telkwa is that is comes
with a set of straps already fastened to the deck intended for sticking a
paddle blade under for a paddlefloat rescue. Its one of the detail things
that impresses me about the boat.

Shortly after I got the boat, I was out paddling with a friend on a small
inland lake when he became sick due to a prescription drug reaction, and he
was having trouble staying conscious and upright. Rather than trying any
elaborate rescue technique, I flagged down a couple guys in a bass boat and
had them take him back to the launch, while I towed the boat back, no big
deal.

But we talked about the incident afterwards, and what we might have done
had we been in a more remote situation. One of the ideas we came up with
would have been to take a paddle and put it under my paddlefloat straps as
a crossbar, with a paddlefloat on either end, and trade boats so I could
tow him back. There's a fly in that ointment -- I'm not sure I could have
gotten into his boat. He did work up a way of fixing a paddle a little more
solidly in such cases again.

-- Wes
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Wes Boyd's Kayak Place               http://www2.dmci.net/wesboyd/kayak.htm
Kayaks for Big Guys (And Gals) | Trip Reports | Places To Go | Boats & Gear
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
***************************************************************************
PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed
here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire
responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author.
Submissions:     PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net
Subscriptions:   PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net
Website:         http://www.paddlewise.net/
***************************************************************************
From: Nick Schade <schade_at_guillemot-kayaks.com>
subject: RE: [Paddlewise] Sponson improvement
Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 15:01:33 -0500
One thought I had was to attach the two sponsons to each other with a 
full length bit of fabric instead of straps at each end. The fabric 
could be thinner than the straps creating less drag and it could be 
shaped to help maintain a "good" shape. The tricky part would be 
making it so it would be adjustable for different size kayaks, but 
that might not be necessary.

Nick

><snip>
>towing, like sponsons do. Tim's sponsons are especially bad this way because
>the straps under the kayak are at each end and if they are tightened down
>enough to stabilize the kayak much (and not have the kayak also sliding
>around inside the harness) they also are curved down at the ends--like a hot
>dog--and plow up a lot of water when moving forward or backwards and (in
>contrast to Tim's claims) greatly increase the drag on the kayak being towed
>or paddled.
-- 
Nick Schade
Guillemot Kayaks
824 Thompson St
Glastonbury, CT 06033
(860) 659-8847
***************************************************************************
PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed
here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire
responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author.
Submissions:     PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net
Subscriptions:   PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net
Website:         http://www.paddlewise.net/
***************************************************************************
From: Rev. Bob Carter <revkayak_at_mtaonline.net>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Sponson stuff
Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 21:45:52 -0900
Sandy wrote:
>sandy kramer who is actually feeling quite chilly in Miami....after a
>scorching Xmas day, it ain't so bad....should warm up by the weekend.
Don't
>know how you northerners stand months of this weather.
>

Sandy,
I know just how you feel. Before Christmas we were having wonderful weather
up here in Alaska. Temperatures a crisp 20 degrees below zero, and two feet
of powery snow. We could track our camp moose (Ode, Chocolate, Coco, Twigs),
fox (Sly), bear (Luther) no to mention the squirrels  (Sam, and Gertrude) We
could hitch up the dog team and hit the trail!
Then all hell broke loose. Christmas Day it was 45 degrees above zero!  Now
my igloo is melting, the snow has gone away and we can't track anything. It
is too hot to run the dogs and my  long underwear got to itching so I had to
take it off.
    Hope is on the way. The weatherman said it should start getting cold
again real soon. I can't wait.
Let it snow, let it snow, let it snow.
Bob
in too warm Alaska

***************************************************************************
PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed
here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire
responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author.
Submissions:     PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net
Subscriptions:   PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net
Website:         http://www.paddlewise.net/
***************************************************************************
From: <Gypsykayak_at_aol.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Sponson stuff
Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 10:44:47 EST
In a message dated 12/29/2001 1:48:30 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
revkayak_at_mtaonline.net writes:

<< Let it snow, let it snow, let it snow.
 Bob in too warm Alaska  >>


LOL  I guess that's why they make chocolate, strawberry, and vanilla :)


sandy kramer thankfully back in tank top and shorts in Miami

***************************************************************************
PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed
here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire
responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author.
Submissions:     PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net
Subscriptions:   PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net
Website:         http://www.paddlewise.net/
***************************************************************************

This archive was generated by hypermail 2.4.0 : Thu Aug 21 2025 - 16:33:25 PDT