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From: <AdrianNEFF_at_aol.com>
subject: [Paddlewise] bow and stern lines
Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 15:01:28 EST
Thanks for the replies about using b/s lines. I am definitely going to start 
using them anytime I'm on the highway. I'll use my rope ratchet lines. Does 
everyone know about rope ratchets? They are so cool and easy to use. Like a 
webbing ratchet, but uses round polypro line, and they come with s-hooks on 
the ends; perfect for applications like b/s lines.


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From: Leonhardt, William J <wjleonhardt_at_bnl.gov>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] bow and stern lines
Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 17:11:14 -0500
At 03:01 PM 12/13/2001 -0500, AdrianNEFF_at_aol.com wrote:
>Thanks for the replies about using b/s lines. I am definitely going to start
>using them anytime I'm on the highway. I'll use my rope ratchet lines. Does
>everyone know about rope ratchets? They are so cool and easy to use. Like a
>webbing ratchet, but uses round polypro line, and they come with s-hooks on
>the ends; perfect for applications like b/s lines.

Hi Adrian,

It would be interesting to see a web reference to the rope ratchet, if 
possible.

Regarding S hooks, it would seem to me that they would not be the best 
choice for this application.  The reason is if the line loosens, the S hook 
can come off and you have no attachment.  If you used something like a 
carabiner, if the line loosens, you're still attached.

Bill Leonhardt
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From: Bob Volin <bobvolin_at_optonline.net>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] bow and stern lines
Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 18:44:36 -0500
Adrian,
   Be sure not to tighten the bow/stern lines, and certainly don't
overtighten them.  Bumps in the road and turbulance from passing trucks and
cars will create stresses on the boat.  These are normally tolerated as
kayaks normally flex (to various degrees, depending on design and
materials).  But tight b/s lines can create additional stress that may
generate cracks in gelcoat.

    Just a little slack in the b/s lines allows for normal flex but still
provides the extra insurance against the flying boat syndrome.

Bob V

> Thanks for the replies about using b/s lines. I am definitely going to
start
> using them anytime I'm on the highway. I'll use my rope ratchet lines.
Does
> everyone know about rope ratchets? They are so cool and easy to use. Like
a
> webbing ratchet, but uses round polypro line, and they come with s-hooks
on
> the ends; perfect for applications like b/s lines.


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From: <AdrianNEFF_at_aol.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] bow and stern lines
Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 19:04:26 EST
In a message dated 12/13/01 3:14:43 PM Mountain Standard Time, 
wjleonhardt_at_bnl.gov writes:


> It would be interesting to see a web reference to the rope ratchet, if 
> possible.
> 
> Regarding S hooks, it would seem to me that they would not be the best 
> choice for this application.  The reason is if the line loosens, the S hook 
> can come off and you have no attachment.  If you used something like a 
> carabiner, if the line loosens, you're still attached.
> 
> 

Gotcha. Makes sense; I'll replace the s-hooks with 'biners. Thanks for the 
tip. Here's a web link to the place that makes rope ratchets: 
http://www.roperatchet.com. The usual disclaimer: I don't work for 'em or 
sell 'em or nothin'; I just have found them useful! But someone warned me 
off-list to be careful with them because you can over-tighten them easily and 
bend your boat.


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From: Wes Boyd <boydwe_at_dmci.net>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] bow and stern lines
Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 08:23:30
At 07:04 PM 12/13/01 EST, AdrianNEFF_at_aol.com wrote:
>In a message dated 12/13/01 3:14:43 PM Mountain Standard Time, 
>wjleonhardt_at_bnl.gov writes:
 
>
>Gotcha. Makes sense; I'll replace the s-hooks with 'biners. Thanks for the 
>tip. Here's a web link to the place that makes rope ratchets: 
>http://www.roperatchet.com. The usual disclaimer: I don't work for 'em or 
>sell 'em or nothin'; I just have found them useful! But someone warned me 
>off-list to be careful with them because you can over-tighten them easily
and 
>bend your boat.

You might want to take the low-tech, cheap solution: learn to tie a couple
of basic knots, like the tautline hitch and the bowline -- a couple of
knots that anyone who picks up a piece of rope ought to know, anyway.

-- Wes
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Wes Boyd's Kayak Place               http://www2.dmci.net/wesboyd/kayak.htm
Kayaks for Big Guys (And Gals) | Trip Reports | Places To Go | Boats & Gear
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From: Joe Pylka <pylka_at_castle.net>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] bow and stern lines
Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 10:06:02 -0500
>
> You might want to take the low-tech, cheap solution: learn to tie a couple
> of basic knots, like the tautline hitch and the bowline -- a couple of
> knots that anyone who picks up a piece of rope ought to know, anyway.
>
        What I've done for some years now is to use something like tent line
tauteners.  The rope loops through a carabiner clipped onto the grabloops,
then back to a 1/2" by 3" hardwood dowel with two holes for the rope.  The
long (standing) part of the rope goes through one hole, and the line back
from the carabiner goes through the other and is knotted to keep it from
coming back out.  Haul down on the dowel and give it an angle to the main
rope when you get the tightness you want.  Takes seconds to apply, seconds
to release, and amazingly never has come loose while driving...  Over the
years I don't see much wear in the rope from this -- I replace it due to sun
damage, usually.

Joe P.


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From: Matt Broze <mkayaks_at_oz.net>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] bow and stern lines
Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 16:29:49 -0800
Wes wrote:
>>>>>You might want to take the low-tech, cheap solution: learn to tie a
couple
of basic knots, like the tautline hitch and the bowline -- a couple of
knots that anyone who picks up a piece of rope ought to know, anyway.<<<<<

Thanks Wes,
Ah, yes rope. Secure, lightweight, easy on the kayak, easy to adjust, no
clunky heavy hard sharp metal parts and hooks and it comes with so many
other uses. Oh and I almost forgot, CHEAP. I suggest at least 1/4" nylon
solid braid, 5/16" if you believe in overkill. The first kayak we ever built
flew of an old Yakima rack at 60 mph into a 50mph headwind, and it was tied
to the front and back bumpers as well as rubber bungied down and locked with
a cable to the racks. The 3/16" nylon line frayed and broke. The driver said
the kayak bounced a couple of times on the S-hook rubber front strap and
then the kayak took the lock and rear rack with it as it peeled back of the
Early Winter's photo shoot van. The stern line delayed its becoming
completely detached for a few seconds and put the kayak on the ground rather
than maybe through the following semi-truck's windshield.

Personally, I'd say you'd have to be crazy to go without bow and stern lines
on the kayaks as well as rope or webbing straps fastening the kayak to the
rack. Without it even a slow speed rear end accident could send your kayaks
through the rear window of the car you hit. Even with ropes with the slack
removed but not under a lot of tension like we recommend I've had kayaks
shift severely in the cradles in strong side wind gusts. I've been thankful
I had bow and stern lines in place several times.

The best knots I've found for tying the lines is the bowline (at the bottom)
which can be easily tied and untied by feel (and untied with one hand if you
practice--nice for under the bumper when you'd rather stay off your knees)
and the version of tautline hitch known as the Midshipman's Hitch (in
Ashley's Book of Knots). A link to directions and diagrams for tying these
knots (and transporting your kayak by car) are on our website near the front
of the "Paddling" manual.

About 20 years ago I was passed on the freeway by a kayaker who had two
Nordkapps floating about 6" above the front rack on his car. They were held
down (more like sort of tethered) only by shock cord bungies with S-hooks on
the ends. I knew who he was and talked to him about what I had seen from
another car as he went by and my own experience with a kayak coming loose.
He said he hadn't lost them yet (but he started tethering them too after I
related my experience.

Matt Broze
http://www.marinerkayaks.com


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From: Michael Daly <michaeldaly_at_rogers.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] bow and stern lines
Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2001 13:12:04 -0500
From: "Matt Broze" <mkayaks_at_oz.net>

> other uses. Oh and I almost forgot, CHEAP. I suggest at least 1/4" nylon
> solid braid, 5/16" if you believe in overkill.

May I suggest polyester lines instead of nylon.  Available in good quality at
any marine supply shop.  The reason is the old problem of nylon's dimensional
instability when going through wet/dry cycles (i.e stretches when wet, shrinks as
it dries).  Having gone through this a few times, I've replaced all nylon tie-downs
with polyester.  1/4" braid is fine, as Matt suggests.

Mike

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