> From: "John Fereira" <jaf30_at_cornell.edu> > > > > I realize that it's fashionable to bash Derek, but for someone that wrote a > > lot of "inaccurate" information about boat design, he sure has designed a > > lot of really nice kayaks. a *lot* of real nice kayaks?? Gulfstream, yes. Slipstream, well ok. that's 2. Maybe it's me, but I'm not a huge fan of many of his designs. Then Mike asks: > > > > > Speaking of Derek's boat designs, has anyone paddled the new Current > > Designs Andromeda or the poly version, Sirocco? yep. > > Actually, the Sirocco is a poly version of the Gulfstream and I'd also > like to know how it performs compared to a composite Gulfstream. > It looks like it could be a decent, lower-priced alternative. > It is. I haven't had it out in big stuff yet, but initial tests are in and it handles alot like the GS. $1200 US! Great deal, as well. Saturday is BIG water/ wind TEST day. I'll let you know next week. The Andromeda, on the other hand is a jittery, high speed, thoroughbred that doesn't like to run downwind. Had it out in 25-35 knots/ 4' seas along side an NDK Romany 16 and Explorer. I was having to horse it around to get it to surf, compared to the NDK's who we're easily running away from me. Speed is great but I'm not sure who's going to LOVE this boat. Seems like it needs a deeper or more aft mounted skeg. Not sure if Ol' Derek or CD tested this enough to send out a finished product. Steve Alder Creek Kayak & Canoe N 45º 39' 47" 250 NE Tomahawk Isle Dr. W 122º 36' 16" Portland, OR 97217 Web: www.aldercreek.com Phone: 503.285.0464 Email: aldercreek_at_qwest.net *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
From: "Alder Creek Kayak & Canoe" <aldercreek_at_qwest.net>> > a *lot* of real nice kayaks?? Gulfstream, yes. I agree - I _almost_ got one but decided on an Ellesmere instead. > Slipstream, well ok. Yech! but then I'm probably too big for it. > that's 2. One for me. > Maybe it's me, but I'm not a huge fan of many of his designs. I was surprised how much I didn't like his other designs, given his reputation and his fan base. > > Actually, the Sirocco is a poly version of the Gulfstream and I'd also > > like to know how it performs compared to a composite Gulfstream. > > It looks like it could be a decent, lower-priced alternative. > > It is. I haven't had it out in big stuff yet, but initial tests are in and > it handles alot like the GS. $1200 US! Great deal, as well. Saturday is > BIG water/ wind TEST day. I'll let you know next week. I'll be waiting. I've been day dreaming about a decent plastic kayak for a playboat in rock etc. So far the much pricier (up here) Skerray was the only alternative. > > The Andromeda, on the other hand is a jittery, high speed, thoroughbred that > doesn't like to run downwind. Sounds like his other designs. Mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 02:43 PM 1/16/02 -0500, Michael Daly wrote: >From: "Alder Creek Kayak & Canoe" <aldercreek_at_qwest.net>> > > > a *lot* of real nice kayaks?? Gulfstream, yes. > >I agree - I _almost_ got one but decided on an Ellesmere instead. > > > Slipstream, well ok. > >Yech! but then I'm probably too big for it. > > > that's 2. > >One for me. > > > Maybe it's me, but I'm not a huge fan of many of his designs. > >I was surprised how much I didn't like his other designs, given >his reputation and his fan base. How many of his other designs have you paddled. Have you paddle an Ice Floe, Reiver, Naiad, or Baidarka explorer? *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
John asks: > How many of his other designs have you paddled. Have you paddle an Ice > Floe, Reiver, Naiad, or Baidarka explorer? > > Ice Floe- Had a customer give me one, as he was tired of it. I sold it for $100. I paddled it once. Very straight tracking and hard to turn and yet weathercocks. No skeg. $100 might of been too much. Reiver/ Naiad- Paddled at a symposium years ago. Tippy and tiny cockpits aren't my bag. Biaidarka Explorer- Paddled a friend's twice. Hull performance was ok, good thing it had a skeg as it w/c. Comfortable like sitting in a crate of avocados. Could see an antique MG aficionado loving it. Steve Alder Creek Kayak & Canoe N 45º 39' 47" 250 NE Tomahawk Isle Dr. W 122º 36' 16" Portland, OR 97217 Web: www.aldercreek.com Phone: 503.285.0464 Email: aldercreek_at_qwest.net *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 01:52 PM 1/16/02 -0800, Alder Creek Kayak & Canoe wrote: >John asks: > >> How many of his other designs have you paddled. Have you paddle an Ice >> Floe, Reiver, Naiad, or Baidarka explorer? >> >> > >Ice Floe- Had a customer give me one, as he was tired of it. I sold it for >$100. I paddled it once. Very straight tracking and hard to turn and yet >weathercocks. No skeg. That's not too surprising considering it was designed about 25 years ago. Somehow he managed to log a few miles in one. >Reiver/ Naiad- Paddled at a symposium years ago. Tippy and tiny cockpits >aren't my bag. In other words, personal preference. I actually prefer small cockpits. I haven't paddled either. Are they as tippy as a FR Rumour? > >Biaidarka Explorer- Paddled a friend's twice. Hull performance was ok, >good thing it had a skeg as it w/c. Comfortable like sitting in a crate of >avocados. Could see an antique MG aficionado loving it. It sounds like you have a strong personal bias against either Derek or his designs and don't mind expressing your opinions. Too bad he doesn't subscribe to Paddlewise so that he could defend himself. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
John writes: > > That's not too surprising considering it was designed about 25 years ago. > Somehow he managed to log a few miles in one. > Many Britts are famous for choosing challenging gear and feel it wouldn't be right to be comfortable. > > In other words, personal preference. I actually prefer small cockpits. I > haven't paddled either. Are they as tippy as a FR Rumour? I'm not sure if any commercially built boat is THAT tippy! ;-) You are correct, it's personal preference. I have long legs and a bombproof spray skirt so I see no earthly reason to have an ocean cockpit. > > > It sounds like you have a strong personal bias against either Derek or his > designs and don't mind expressing your opinions. Too bad he doesn't > subscribe to Paddlewise so that he could defend himself. I have a strong personal preference in what I like to paddle. I don't like stuff that doesn't work well for me. That's all. steve *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 1/17/02 12:55:01 AM !!!First Boot!!!, aldercreek_at_qwest.net writes: << Many Britts are famous for choosing challenging gear and feel it wouldn't be right to be comfortable. >> So that's why none of the boats I've paddled has a backband that resembles anything I'd choose to own, even as a gift. Just seem to have my back higher than the people they make the boats for. Too bad, otherwise I like some I've paddled. Joan *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
From: "John Fereira" <jaf30_at_cornell.edu> > How many of his other designs have you paddled. Have you paddle an Ice > Floe, Reiver, Naiad, or Baidarka explorer? No, but I have tried the Sirius and Orion. I found them all to have a similar feel that I didn't like, one that the Gulfstream didn't share. I didn't like the first generation Gulfstream due to its rear deck and coaming arrangement making layback rolls a spine breaking trial. I'm willing to compromise on the design of kayaks, trading off one feature to gain another. Hutchinson's designs that I've tried (Gulfstream excepted) gave up on stability without adding anything. Other kayaks offer the same or better handling with better, usable (i.e. not excessive) stability. If anything, the Gulfstream has a tad too much stability, making it just a wee bit hard to bring up on edge and requires balance on edge - more like some other CD kayaks (e.g. my Solstice). One reason I preferred the Ellesmere was lower initial and solid, easy-to-lean-on secondary stability. If the loss of useful stability meant gaining some substantial other feature that I could discover easily, I'd find something to praise. Some could say this is all about preference or tastes, but that's true of all kayaking. Mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 07:49 PM 1/16/02 -0500, Michael Daly wrote: >From: "John Fereira" <jaf30_at_cornell.edu> > > > How many of his other designs have you paddled. Have you paddle an Ice > > Floe, Reiver, Naiad, or Baidarka explorer? > >No, but I have tried the Sirius and Orion. I found them all to have >a similar feel that I didn't like, one that the Gulfstream didn't >share. I know I missed the Orion but I wasn't positive that Derek designed the Sirius. I haven't spent that much time in a Sirius. The first time I tried one I had only been paddling about a year so it felt like too much boat for my skill level (coincidentally, that was before I took a class with Derek which resulted in a significant improvement in my bracing skills (I previous had none)). I paddled the low volume and standard versions a year later and liked them a lot and didn't find them to be especially tippy. I also paddled an Ellsemere the same day, and while I liked it, I came away thinking that if I were to replace my then current boat the Sirius was at or near the top of the list (the Ellesmere wasn't far behind). >I'm willing to compromise on the design of kayaks, trading off >one feature to gain another. Hutchinson's designs that I've >tried (Gulfstream excepted) gave up on stability without >adding anything. Other kayaks offer the same or better >handling with better, usable (i.e. not excessive) stability. >If anything, the Gulfstream has a tad too much stability, >making it just a wee bit hard to bring up on edge and requires >balance on edge - more like some other CD kayaks (e.g. my Solstice). >One reason I preferred the Ellesmere was lower initial and solid, >easy-to-lean-on secondary stability. You make some good points. I'm usually able to get used to the initial stability of most kayaks after a very brief period, but like you, think that in some cases, a particular model is unnecessarily tippy. Actually, I felt that way about the Slipstream. I've also experience boats that I thought were too initially table. Surprisingly, one of them was a Guillemot that someone local here built. I paddled it before he had finished the seat when he just had a piece of 1/2" foam on the bottom. I tried edging it and it just didn't want to keel over. I really had to lean out with my shoulders to get it over on it's side (once I did, it had very good secondary). I'm sure that replacing the seat with something that didn't have me sitting so deep in the cockpit would have been better. The problem, as I see it, with a boat that has too much initial stability is that it resists the subtle edging efforts that an experience paddler is capable of, and instead requires exerting a lot of effort to get the boat on it's side. If I've got to lean over with my shoulders to edge the boat to the left, I have to throw all that weight to the other side if I want to edge the boat to the right. A boat that is too stable initially is, to me, unresponsive. One of the first touring kayaks I ever paddled was a P&H Iona, a design I've rarely read about or seen. I didn't know if Derek had designed the Iona as well, but it also had pretty low initial stability. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
>From: "John Fereira" <jaf30_at_cornell.edu> > > > How many of his other designs have you paddled. Have you paddle an Ice > > Floe, Reiver, Naiad, or Baidarka explorer?<<<<<<<<SNIP> Below are Derek's kayak designs (or at least partly his designs) that I am aware of--in roughly chronological order (I have paddled those with an asterisk (*) after the length): North Sea Tourer (16-10)(1967) Baidarka (16-8)* Baidarka Explorer (16-10)* Umnak (15-5)* Umnak Icefloe (16-8)* Icefloe (17-0) Dawn Treader Odin (16-10)* Fjord (16-8)* Orion (17-0)* Iona (15-6) (15-8)(16-0)?? Naiad (17-1) (Southern Exposure-U.S. builder) Riever (17-1.5)* (Southern Exposure-U.S. builder) Sirius hf (&LC)(17-1)* (hf=1" higher freeboard)(in 1996 called Sirius hf M=medium--for 28.3x15.4" LC=long cockpit size) Sirius (17-0)(in 1996 Sirius small) (Sirius design is Derek's North Sea/Baidarka/Baidarka Explorer/Dawn Treader hull, deck was designed by P&H committee) Capella RM (16-6)* (plastic)(P&H FIBERGLASS)(Derek did part of the design) Capella (16-10.5)* (fiberglass)(P&H FIBERGLASS)(Derek did part of the design) Gulfstream (16-10.5)* dsgnr:Derek Huthinson & Brian Henry Gulfstream 2000 (16-10.5) dsgnr:Derek Huthinson & Brian Henry Sirocco (16-9)* (plastic)(based on Gulfstream) Matt Broze http://www.marinerkayaks.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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