"Jed" <jluby_at_teamnorthatlantic.com> wrote: > No doubt the retailers would be lining up to use this sales tactic... Oh yeah. I know a retailer who probably sells 40 or 50 boats per year, and maybe sells 2-3 paddlefloats per year. Maybe one set of float bags, 4 or 5 pumps, 10 whistles. >But I don't think we'll see it included with new boat sales anytime >soon. What say you, Steve? Sure, ask someone who's more likely to be an exception... It sounds ironic, but more novice kayakers would be safer if more kayakers got killed every year. You only hear of 2-3 deaths nationwide every year, so they all think "It happened to someone else, but it can't happen to me". Heyy...I need to start posting links to accounts like the Homer accident on my club's mailing list. Why didn't I think of that sooner? Shawn Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions! http://auctions.yahoo.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Shawn said... Oh yeah. I know a retailer who probably sells 40 or 50 boats per year, and maybe sells 2-3 paddlefloats per year. Maybe one set of float bags, 4 or 5 pumps, 10 whistles. I hear and understand your point, but I think the example is a bit misleading. How many P'Wisers own more than one boat and transfer floats, pumps etc between them depending on which boat they will be paddling that day? I'm in the market for a new boat, but will continue to use my current pump and float. I don't think you can make a correlation between boat and accessory sales. Nonetheless, your point was that not enough people are buying the necessary equipment, and with that I agree 100%. I met someone who has been paddling a small rec boat for about 3 years, and didn't even know what a paddle float was or why in the world you would ever need to pump a boat out!!!!! Scary stuff. Rick - Poquoson, VA *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
----- Original Message ----- ----Nonetheless, your point was that not enough people are buying the necessary equipment, and with that I agree 100%. I met someone who has been paddling a small rec boat for about 3 years, and didn't even know what a paddle float was or why in the world you would ever need to pump a boat out!!!!! Scary stuff. For a long time I have had the impression that many of these small recreational boats are perceived by purchasers as gym machines, not boats. For many of them it is just another kind of stairstepper for the upper body and it gets them outside where they can breathe the good air... A body of water becomes to them perhaps a track around the park or a basketball court; it is nothing more than a venue for exercise. There is, ultimately, no thought given to the act/practice of paddling in and for itself. They start with a very different perception of the sport than we do. Why and how should they know better? Recreational kayak sales have zoomed in recent years, but memberships in paddling clubs have not kept pace. Their interest and understanding is simply not there. And, unfortunately, I don't think there's much we can do about that.... *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
----- Original Message ----- From: <Rick.Sylvia_at_ferguson.com> > > > I hear and understand your point, but I think the example is a bit > misleading. How many P'Wisers own more than one boat and transfer > floats, pumps etc between them depending on which boat they will be > paddling that day? I know you meant your question to answer the point about a retailer selling 40 boats and just 5 paddle floats; i.e. that ratio may not mean anything. However, you did raise an interesting question. I have each boat pretty much equipped with specific essentials: a paddle, a paddlefloat, a pump, a spray skirt, flotation, paddle leash, empty watter bottle, an empty dry bag (and for almost all the boats, separate PFDs). Several reasons: the boats are generally in bags that I just want to grab and go. And so, those things are there (all I need to add is appropriate clothing, food, water, other gear and repair/emergency kit); if I need to lend out a boat to some one, it is pretty much basically equipped for essential gear to make the thing go and a modicum of safety equipment and even a dry bag to put some extra clothing (their own). It may sound expensive but, since I have added the items as I get a new boat, I hardly feel the shock of the added cost. The PFDs are older models that I know still have life in them (some haven't and were discarded as unfit). ralph diaz-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024 Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com "Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag." ----------------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
>> Shawn said... >> Oh yeah. I know a retailer who probably sells 40 or 50 boats per >> year, and maybe sells 2-3 paddlefloats per year. Maybe one set of >> float bags, 4 or 5 pumps, 10 whistles. --- Rick.Sylvia_at_ferguson.com wrote: > I hear and understand your point, but I think the example is a bit > misleading. How many P'Wisers own more than one boat and transfer > floats, pumps etc between them depending on which boat they will be > paddling that day? Very good point. Okay, considering that probably half are repeat customers, but half are new kayakers, it's still quite scary. This is the same retailer who also told me I was doing my students a disservice by teaching the roll. He thought I'd instill a false sense of security. It's not like I don't teach self- and assisted-rescue skills first. He's primarily a C-2 and K-1 racer, not a ww kayaker or sea kayaker. I also know of two other retailers who sell those safety accessories to closer to 85-90% of their new customers. And those people come back for more, so safety must not be all _that_ scary. Both these retailers are serious sea kayakers and sometime ww kayakers. Another general sporting goods shop doesn't even have paddlefloats or pumps available with their rental fleet. They think that by offering that type of safety gear, and the information it requires, that they will incur more liability. The retailer's background makes a BIG difference. However, that's not an easy thing for the newbie kayaker to understand; the safety information they receive is biased on the retailer's paradigms. We can steer newbies we meet in the directions they will receive the most positive information--if the information they receive from a retailer jives with what we as instructors, trip leaders, club members, and friends, they will be more apt to believe all the safety information as gospel, rather than the ravings of a depraved safety cop. Shawn Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions! http://auctions.yahoo.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
When I went shopping for my first kayak, the dealers I visited with either made a basic safety package part of the purchase price, or offered heavy discounts on recommended safety items purchased with the boat (one even extended this discount to safety and storage accessories purchased within six months). The multiple-day skills session I took, which allowed me to test drive a half dozen boats by using them in the class itself, emphasized the necessity of redundancy and practice of self and group rescue skills. An additional class on learning to roll was available. Even if you did not buy a kayak, taking the class from this retailer also allowed you a buy safety gear at a discount. My limited experience with SAR work in backpacking-climbing suggests that people will find a way to overcome the obvious warnings, ignore all prudent evidence, and persist in allowing their 'interest' to overreach their 'intelligence'. Some of us have been lucky to have learned potentially dangerous lessons without much lasting consequence to life and limb. On day climbs or above treeline hikes, I am often the one in the group who carries a stuffed pack....a headlamp....firstaid kit....extra clothing and food... hats and mittens in summer....blah blah woof woof. And if I'm not nagged by my hike-mates, my forty-something shoulders often argue that I could have easily left the load behind. Then again, I've also doled out extra jackets and hats...water...food...etc when the weather went to hell and my go-lite pals were turning blue-lipped and stoic...and hours from the trailhead. The message seems clear enough: when you venture out, you are responsible for yourself and the impact you have on the environment; when you go out with others, that responsibility expands and becomes mutual. The worse part of group problems is when one person assumes their skill and knowledge will suffice for others, luring all into a misplaced sense of security. -wjj *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 12:21 PM 1/25/02 -0600, you wrote: >On day climbs or above treeline hikes, I am often the one in the group who >carries a stuffed pack....a headlamp....firstaid kit....extra clothing and >food... >hats and mittens in summer....blah blah woof woof. A while back on rec.boats.paddle there was a post from a whitewater paddler who carried in their boat "The ugly suit". This was a spare set of clothes that were given to someone who didn't bring their own and got cold at the takeout. The outfit was the ugliest clothes the person could find. Pink pants, orange plaid jacket etc. If someone opted to put on "the ugly suit" they were taken on the shuttle to get the vehicles and a stop would be made at a restaurant or bar so that the offender not only had to put on the ugly suit they got to wear it in public. According to the poster this was effective at getting people to bring their own gear in the future. I used to carry a spare bicycle helmet (heavy with minimal vents), in my car, when I mountain biked. If anyone showed up without a helmet they got to wear the "hanson brothers" helmet. We didn't let anyone ride without a helmet. I don't think anyone ever wore the spare helmet more than once. I paddle with a local outrigger canoe team. I don't, yet, have a plan for making them more safety conscious. Wearing pfds and wetsuits is unheard of. kirk *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
From: "Shawn Baker" <shawnkayak_at_yahoo.com> > This is > the same retailer who also told me I was doing my students a disservice > by teaching the roll. He thought I'd instill a false sense of > security. It's not like I don't teach self- and assisted-rescue skills > first. I just got this course description in the mail yesterday from the major local kayak specialty shop: >> Rolling, Rolling, Rolling >> >> Nobody needs a roll to be a kayaker-period! But.....if you like doing >> silly things, then there's nothing more fun than turning a kayak over >> and bringing it back upright while your best friend is looking on. (Perhaps I should note that this outfitter supplies sponsons with every rental kayak and one of his senior employees is featured in the photos on Timmy's web site.) This paints a kind of disparaging image of rolling. It falls into the pattern of trying to downplay the importance of being prepared for paddling and more significantly, being prepared to look at kayaking as a sport where one should consider skills advancement as a given. Some sports are sold as "eXtreme" risky thrill sports. It looks like many retailers want to sell sea kayaking as a recreation for the commoner. In whitewater paddling, it seems to be that the elite are as likely to die as the beginner, as the elite push themselves to the limit. In sea kayaking, it's the beginners that seem disproportionally represented in disaster statistics. Sigh... Something tells me this will never change*. Mike *The same circumstances exist in comparing alpine and cross-country skiing. The former is perceived as risky and folks tend to take lessons. The latter is a commoner's sport and most folks never learn anything! After over a quarter century skiing, I've seen it getting worse, not better. This experience makes me pessimistic about the kayaking situation. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 11:44 AM 1/25/02 -0500, Rick.Sylvia_at_ferguson.com wrote: >I don't think you can make a correlation between boat and accessory >sales. Nonetheless, your point was that not enough people are buying >the necessary equipment, and with that I agree 100%. I met someone who >has been paddling a small rec boat for about 3 years, and didn't even >know what a paddle float was or why in the world you would ever need to >pump a boat out!!!!! Scary stuff. OK, I'm going to play devils advocate here and naively ask "why is that so scary?" Maybe I've been paddling a rec boat for three years and have never come close to tipping over because the place that I paddle never has any waves, I'm always close to shore, and I just don't paddle when the water is too cold. So why should I buy something that I'll never use? Have you ever watched someone get in or out of a rec boat that's had it for awhile? People with recreational boats can actually step into the middle of the cockpit with both feet and then sit down or pull up to shore, stand up and step out. In other words, there are just some things that one can get away with in a rec boat that would likely have you upside down in a hurry if you tried it in a "real" touring boat (I'm not saying that standing up in a touring boat is impossible because I've seen plenty of people do it). Now, let me remove my devils advocate hat... The reason that I agree that this is scary stuff is that rec boats aren't used just for casual recreational paddling in protected warm waters close to shore. In fact, rec boats aren't even marketed only for casual paddling in benign conditions. They're also marketed as "beginner" sea kayaks, so while a beginner may start out in calm waters as they gain confidence they might take their "sea kayak" out into the open waters of a large lake where the lack of safety training and equipment could get them in real trouble. That's why when someone has asked me to recommend a "beginner" kayak I ask what their goals are. If they're only going to be using it in calm protected waters, maybe for photography or fishing, I would recommend an inexpensive rec boat. However, if they hope to be able to go out on the open lake I would suggest a "real" touring boat with bulkheads, all the extra safety gear, and some formal instruction. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
--- John Fereira <jaf30_at_cornell.edu> wrote: > OK, I'm going to play devils advocate here and naively ask "why is > that so scary?" >... So why should I buy something that I'll never use? When I moved to NW Montana a year ago, I immediately sought out the local club, especially to see if there were any folks around here who like pushing their limits. I found a couple, but I also found a lot of people who didn't know a whole lot about safety. There are tons of lakes around here (not Minnesota tons-of-lakes, but a lot of lakes regardless). Some lakes are quite small and warm, but not that scenic. Some lakes are huge (like Flathead and the lakes in Glacier NP) and have amazing scenery, but tricky weather conditions that can change quickly. People don't go for the "dumpy" lakes, they want scenery. They figure "I'll just stay close to shore". I heard tales at my first meeting of people dumping 50 yards from shore in their "sea kayaks" and having to swim! to shore. Meanwhile, others on shore watched, and didn't know what to do. You're right with your devil's advocate hat on--some people never need safety equipment, and many people never KNOW they need safety equipment. But, like you said later: > while a beginner may start out in calm waters as they gain confidence > they might take their "sea kayak" out into the open waters of a large > lake where the lack of safety training and equipment could get them in > real trouble. So, while you might ask a person what their goals are when they get into kayaking, they might say fishing or photography, and buy a Kiwi. Later, they get hooked, and while their goals may change their gear may not change as quickly. I started some free weekly skills sessions for the club to teach basic rescue techniques. I'll never "change the world", and I probably won't ever reach every person in my area, but I'm glad I've taught a few people rescue skills, and I'm confident that I'll have saved one of my students someday from hypothermia or worse. If someone only ever wants to use their Kiwi for a pond hopper, they can enjoy a lifetime of happiness. If they want to adopt the attitude that they're a sea kayaker and refer to that boat as a sea kayak, then I don't feel any remorse in telling them they need skills or gear that "sea kayakers" use in open water situations. They can be just as happy, but I'm not going to help anyone fool themself with their own ignorance. Off-thread: Heck, I went on an overnight camping trip with two club members last weekend. Water 33*F. Air 23*F. 2.5 mi one-way. They both asked me if they should still wear their full wetsuits. More than once! After I was adamant that nobody go on the trip without wetsuit or drysuit. On the way home, another end of the lake was getting hard hit by 30kt gusts of wind building 3.5' waves. I asked if they'd mind stopping so I could play. They thought I was crazy. I paddled about 20 minutes, got some good surfs in, and then landed my boat and went out to swim in the waves to demonstrate to them that you can easily be dressed for the water. There weren't any rec. boats out that day, and I needed more skills and equipment than just a paddlefloat to be safe. Maybe I'm just a gear head, but I was safe, and I still encourage people to amass all the skills and safety gear they can afford. We fight an uphill battle, and I'm never going to be apologetic if a rec-boater happens to buy a paddlefloat that they never use. Shawn Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions! http://auctions.yahoo.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I said... I met someone who >has been paddling a small rec boat for about 3 years, and didn't even >know what a paddle float was or why in the world you would ever need to >pump a boat out!!!!! Scary stuff. Then John said.... OK, I'm going to play devils advocate here and naively ask "why is that so scary?" My response..... John, I don't disagree with the stuff that followed your question. Perhaps I should elaborate on what I think is "scary". I think it's the lack of awareness that is scary. For the guy to say he's a kayaker, then a few minutes later say "why would anybody ever need to pump a boat out, and what's a... what did you call it.... a paddle float?" That, to me, is a bit scary. Also, understand the context. I'm not meeting these folks at little farm ponds. I'm running into them in the Cheseapeake Bay, complete with currents, tides, winds, waves, and lots of drunk boaters and idiots trying to see what happens when they throw you a wake. The Bay isn't the hardest place in the world to kayak, but it's dangerous nonetheless. So, John, I read your P'Wise posts and I peg you as a smart guy always trying to improve on a sound knowledge and experience base. If "you" assessed your skills, boat, intended route, weather, location, etc and decided not to take a pump along for the ride, then I'd say that you're simply making a judgment call, whether I agreed with that call or not. *BUT*, if you didn't even know what a pump was used for and why you may at some point wish you had one, and then launched out into the Bay....THAT, TO ME, IS WHATS SCARY. So, it's not the decision a person makes, it's the lack of awareness that you're at a "decision point" and don't even know it. Hope that made more sense :-) Rick *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
- I have each boat pretty much equipped with specific essentials: a paddle, a paddlefloat, a pump, a spray skirt, flotation, paddle leash, empty watter bottle, an empty dry bag (and for almost all the boats, separate PFDs). WOW! Can I get on your Christmas list?????? :-) Seriously though, I think the ability to do that is great. Personally, I'm in the process of selecting my second boat, but will continue to use my existing pump, etc. If I let a visitor paddle my other boat while I'm on the water with them, I'd strongly prefer that each boat was fully equiped in case of seperation, but, until I can pick up gear over a length of time, find someone getting out of paddling and "unloading" all their gear, etc, I just couldn't afford more than one pump, one float, one medical kit, one set of flares, one VHF, etc etc etc. Exceptions, of course, would have to be made for skirts since it's not one size fits all, and I'd never dream of letting a friend go out with me in one of my boats without a paddle (duh!), and a PFD. Rick *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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