Scott said: <snip lots> I have a question. Is the paddler who overburdens him/herself with rescue and safety equipment considered to be safer simply by the mere presence of all of the crap they carry? Just how much crap does one need to throw into their boat to be considered safe? --------------- Scott, First of all, don't feel like you have to make mention of me in deference to my feelings, practices or whatever on the subject of safety gear. I understand you are just trying to bring a little balance to the discussion. My pursuits involve looking for marine hazards, which kind of rules me out of the discussion in terms of equipment comparisons a lot of the time. I really don't think a basic safety kit means packing your compartments so tight there is no room for food. Was that comment mere hyperbole? Most of the folks I paddle with on day trips carry a minimum of gear, and add to it as the weather/season gets colder and/or on more committed multiday trips, or if they are designated trip facilitator responsible especially for new paddlers. (Then there's the skinboat guys who pack nothing but skill and sit in a cold puddle of water all day). But basic safety gear to me requires minimal space and weight: 1. A small communication device if needed (amongst the grp). 2. A small first aid kit/ matches. 3. A small folding knife. 4. 3 small flares/flashlight in season. 5. A throw line/combination tow line. 6. A spare paddle (amongst the grp) or tether. 7. A paddlefloat or equivalent (or a reliable re-enter and roll) and perhaps a stirrup if required. 8. Immersion gear if required/PFD. 9. A pump or bailer. 10. Some common sense, knowledge, and a safe attitude. Doesn't sound like that much volume or weight. Perhaps its the volume of preaching that gets your goat. Turning the dial down would help here, but maybe folks are trying to counter the minimalist (read the no gear rec boat paddler) assumptions. Most experienced paddlers lend weight to basic safety requirements precisely because many of the items they carry have had to be used in the past, and/or they have seen/read the need for some items arise in certain situations. I certainly don't carry all my redundant safety gear on every trip, and even exclude things like deck knives sometimes when I'm out with newbies, precisely because I don't want to demonstrate that "too much crap" message. Sometimes my flares get wet, so the next day I might leave them drying at home while on a short intermediate day paddle. I've also covered reports in SK Mag where the last minute decision to take a couple of flares changed the outcome of a trip from tragedy to mild embarrassment. I guess balance is needed here, just like with any other recreational pursuit or religious activity, etc. Well, at least in California, you don't need to ever pack an ice ax or crampons :-) Safe paddling to you Scott. Doug Lloyd *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Scott says: the vast majority of average Joe paddlers would be far better off learning to paddle with some restraint and practicing skills rather then wasting their money on a bunch of unnecessary equipment which the paddler SHOULD never need! OK, I'm braced for all of the back channel abuse from all of you techno junkies out there. Scott So.Cal. ------------- Scott raises several issues including the one about back channel abuse, which is worth some discussion apart from the issue of appropriate gear. It is true that I take a substantial pile of "Stuff" with me when I go out with other paddlers. I at least never fail to dress to swim and I do always take a spare paddle on the rear deck. With others, I usually take a towline, and I have had to use it on several occasions. On day trips, I usually carry a compass on deck and charts under the deck lines. I have a boat horn on my PFD. Now Scott, tell us how you equip yourself! How is your roll? I count mine as bomb proof. Thanks, Chuck Sutherland *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> Scott says: > the vast majority of average Joe paddlers would be far better off > learning to paddle with some restraint and practicing skills rather > then wasting their money on a bunch of unnecessary equipment which > the paddler SHOULD never need! > It's a paddler's responsibility to: 1. Take lessons and learn how to control your boat. 2. Learn about seamanship and rescue/ recoveries. 3. Outfit yourself for the conditions at hand. This includes learning how to use all your kit. (more lessons?) 4. Go paddling with a support team and practice pushing your limit and comfort zone. 5. Continue with coaching until you are happy with your results. I personally take paddlers into challenging conditions on a weekly basis. Saturday we paddled near the mouth of the Columbia River. The weather forecast was for snow warnings (36º), flood warnings and high surf warnings (20' NW). The tide was ebbing and big. The wind was strong (up to 35 knots) and onshore. We push the limit with a support team that keeps us self-sufficient and safe. We have systems that work well and in this environment we test and practice them. We waste no money on a bunch of unnecessary equipment, in fact don't carry anything that isn't part of the system. Every trip we ALL come away a stronger, more savvy paddler. steve aldercreek.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 08:09 AM 1/28/02 -0800, Steve Scherrer wrote: > > Scott says: > > the vast majority of average Joe paddlers would be far better off > > learning to paddle with some restraint and practicing skills rather > > then wasting their money on a bunch of unnecessary equipment which > > the paddler SHOULD never need! > > > >It's a paddler's responsibility to: > >1. Take lessons and learn how to control your boat. > >2. Learn about seamanship and rescue/ recoveries. > >3. Outfit yourself for the conditions at hand. This includes learning how >to use all your kit. (more lessons?) > >4. Go paddling with a support team and practice pushing your limit and >comfort zone. > >5. Continue with coaching until you are happy with your results. All good advice. However, how important all of this to any particular person kind of depends on how one defines "paddler". I would imagine that most people that paddle short , wide recreational boats exclusively in calm protected waters, never have taken a lesson, have little interest in "pushing their limit", and are perfectly happy with the experience, despite having little or no knowledge about seamanship and rescue/recoveries. The above seem to be written with the assumption that all "paddlers" have similar goals. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 1/28/02 2:50:29 PM !!!First Boot!!!, kolsen_at_imaginelan.com writes: << My complete set of gear consists of what I'm wearing plus my pfd, with water, a whistle, and some food. Performing rescues from this boat is not really an option. I could coach a rescue or raft up but would not be able to actively participate beyond that (the boat would probably break if used in a T rescue).>> You CAN do rescues with that boat. You may have to change HOW you do them but that is where practice with others comes in. You can steady a boat while someone climbs back in and help them until they get the water out if you really can't do a "t" rescue. All you may not be able to do is get most of the water out. <<Am I an unsafe paddler? The local club would not let me join their trips without changing what I carry.>> Unsafe? As far as gear goes, what did they want you to have that you didn't? We require the CG requirements but nothing more that I can think of off hand. They require a visual as well as sound warning so most of us have lights or mirrors, some have flairs. Maybe not the most prepared "group" paddler but you don't sound unsafe. <<In my car I have a wide range of clothing options before I head out. I spend a fair amount of time determining what to wear, because that IS my safety gear. >> Anything in ones car isn't safety gear. That may be necessary stuff but is of no help if you are an hour away from your car. I guess the only thing I might ask is, will you be warm enough to paddle home safely if you take a dunking or get soaked by a splash? If so, you seem fine for yourself. Most of us also carry things others might need as well. We paddle in groups for both company and the safety of fellow paddlers who can help out in a pinch. We are ready to be the helper when the time arises. It doesn't seem like you are "practiced" with the helping end. Unsafe? No, but as a member of a group you might be a weak link in a bad situation. Joan *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Steve said: <snip> I personally take paddlers into challenging conditions on a weekly basis. Saturday we paddled near the mouth of the Columbia River. <snip> This is obviously blatant advertising from one of the staff of one of the top retail paddlesport stores in North America :-) Seriously Steve, sounds like you a running a great service for the small percentage of paddlers that want to go beyond the norm and develop some serious skills within the competency framework of a team effort. We have some folks in Victoria (reg. force/reservist army types) that ply the waters around Race Rocks in rougher weather. They do wet exits, re-entry rolls, and group rescues in some amazing stuff. Totally self sufficient too. Keep up the great work. And hey, next time you are out near the mouth of the Columbia, try it under a big _SW_ swell with no breakwater protection. Oh yeah, watch out for the metal rebar projections -- you don't want to test your "metal" that much! Doug *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> I would like to add one > more item however, and this one goes at the top... > > 0. Have a brain and know how to use it. ;) > > Seriously... good judgment is the best safety skill. I like to tell people > that kayaking is really quite safe as long as your judgement exceeds your > physical ability to paddle. That is why a great paddler like Kirk can be > perfectly safe using minimal safety gear, and I have paddled my > non-bulkheaded sea kayak plenty of times with only air bags and no sea sock > because I knew my skills were good enough for the worst possible > conditions. > EXACTLY! A smart paddler will ALWAYS be safer then a stupid paddler REGARDLESS of the equipment at hand. Techno crap is not the answer --- education is! This is the very problem that our good friend Timmy has. He seems to think that with the right equipment (his sp*ns*ns) anyone will be safe. Hogwash! Equipment is case specific. One needs to be already in trouble, or at least looking for it, for it to do you any good. Scott So.Cal. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
KiAyker_at_aol.com writes: > EXACTLY! A smart paddler will ALWAYS be safer then a stupid paddler > REGARDLESS of the equipment at hand. Techno crap is not the answer --- > education is! This is the very problem that our good friend Timmy has. He > seems to think that with the right equipment (his sp*ns*ns) anyone will be > safe. Hogwash! Equipment is case specific. One needs to be already in > trouble, or at least looking for it, for it to do you any good. > > Scott > So.Cal. > > Not always true, somtimes the right equipment can keep you out of trouble in the first place as long as you have the brains to use it. Tide and current tables, charts and weather radios are all pieces of equipment that can do a great deal towards keeping you out of trouble. How about that miracle of modern technology, the compass? Yup, the brain is the most important piece of equipment you have, followed closely by the trained body. But don't dis the equipment just to make your point. Dave *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
KiAyker_at_aol.com wrote: snip > A smart paddler will ALWAYS be safer then a stupid paddler > REGARDLESS of the equipment at hand Ok. So Scott's first postulate of safety is: A smart paddler will always be safer then a stupid paddler, regardless of the equipment at hand. Nothing wrong with that. I further prepose that hypothermia being the single most important danger for a sea-kayaker to be knowledgable of and given that rolling up is the fastest and surest way for the kayaker to get out of, hypothermia inducing, cold water, and when stuff happens that's where the kayaker is going to find himself, it therefore follows (and I believe this is a valid syllogism) that Scott's first corallary to Scott's first postulate of safety should be: The smart paddler, who paddles a readily rollable, boat should learn to roll. I think with just these two rules alone, inspired by our devoted minimalist Scott, that everything else, regarding safety, necessarily follows of it's own accord. Which is to say, that rolling being an immersion activity, you will learn to dress for immersion. Also you will have everything you need to get back in the boat. Mirrors, whistles, vhf's: all this stuff the "smart paddler" will know when it is applicable for adding it to the stuff in the boat. The list of safetly stuff will vary for expeditions crossings and other specific endeavors but the primary laws of safety hearin demarcated for posterity: Scott's Safety Postulate One (SSP-1), and Scott's Safety Postulate One, Corallary A (SSP-1a) will (it is my hope) alway endure. -- Mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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