Hi Everybody, I have just started following the digest format of paddlewise. Lots of good advice. My questions: 1) Looking for opinions on what is the best resource/ source of information about teaching /how to teach rolling. 2) Also if you have tried to teach people the counter intuitive skill called rolling, what are your favorite techniques. What works, what doesn't? I start by getting people comfortable hanging up side down in their boats with me standing beside them in waist deep water. I get them to count and then tap the side of the boat when they want to be brought back upright. If they haven't done a wet exit before we practice that as well. Next we start working on hip flicks explaining that the paddle looks really sexy with all that sweeping but the power is your roll is in the hips. I get folks to hang on the side of the pool/ on the nose of another boat/ on to someone elses hands or what ever is close by that offers support. Then it is time to start to introduce the paddle. I have the student get into the set up position with paddle on the deck of the boat and body leaning forward. Once upside down they slip the paddle out and pat the blade twice on the surface of the water to be sure that they have broken the surface of the water with the paddle. I will then guide the paddle through the rolling motion asking them to just feel the motion of the paddle with their muscles to try to develop kinesthetic awareness. When the paddle is perpendicular they are starting to come out and they finish off with the hip flick. After guiding them a few times I will get them to try it on their own and start giving corrections to the usual errors. (pulling across the deck of the boat underwater or pulling straight down instead of sweeping across the surface). It is then a mater of doing less and less guiding of the paddle while they get more and more of a feel for it. I usually end up supporting and guiding the paddle with one finger at the end of the blade. What do people think of using paddle floats to give the feel of the sweep with out having to worry about the paddle being pulled down? The paddle float is deflated a bit more each attempt to decrease the buoyance. Any fans of the Pawlata roll as a progression step in teaching the roll? C to C versus the screw roll? What is better, what do you prefer? My teaching environment at the moment is tidal lake with reasonably warm water using sea kayaks. (I am in the southern hemisphere so it is summer time) Sorry if this is something that has been covered to death already. Just point me to the archives and I will go a searching. Looking forward to your responses and thanks in advance for all that respond. cheers Phil *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Hi Phil, Are you teaching sea kayakers or white water paddlers? When you say "hip-flick" and "screw rolls", are you in all cases ending with the paddler tucked forward? Are you familiar with rolls starting tucked forward and ending on the back deck? Thanks, Chuck Sutherland Any fans of the Pawlata roll as a progression step in teaching the roll? C to C versus the screw roll? What is better, what do you prefer? *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
>C to C versus the screw roll? What is better, what do you prefer? In the Netherlands the preference seems to be to teach the C-to-C. I observed a instructors intruction course last week and saw how they teach it here which is quite different from the method used in the US (in my experience at least) which favors the screw roll ending on the back deck. The Dutch method makes sense insofar that is breaks the roll down into several distinct steps: Invert (well duh) Push paddle to surface and slap blade twice (to establish surface contact) Sweep forward and lock Brace and hip-snap Dislocate shoulder OK, I added that last one. The screw (or is it a sweep?) seems to be a much more "fluid" roll from start to finish and thus harder to teach. The US method seems (again in my limited experience) to almost always start with the teaching of bow-rolls and then onto paddlefloat screw rolls and from there a regular roll. Paddlefloats are pretty much non-existant here (no one seems to paddle alone) making that impossible. The Dutch method seems to allow for an easier learning of the offside roll. Personally, I've always wondered about how effective it is to teach a paddlefloat roll as I think it may initially hinder developing a proper hip-snap. -Patrick *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Kent Ford has recently released a new video tape called the Kayak Roll. He presents a good progression for teaching rolling. I would classify what he teached as a modified sweep roll which stops the body before it lays onto the back deck. One of things he emphases up front is the finish position. It takes me back to school when I needed to recite poety from memory. I started memorizing from the end of poem backwards. Being located in the US and having watched various people teach rolling, I would tend to say sea kayakers seem to start with the sweep roll and white water with the c to c. Both work in either environment, with both needing good lower body action to work. The palletta roll compensates for poor lower body movement by providing a bigger lever. I use it as my roll of last resort. It's good to include in your back of tricks. good luck sid *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
From: <SNStone_at_aol.com> > Kent Ford has recently released a new video tape called the Kayak Roll. > He presents a good progression for teaching rolling. I would classify > that he teached as a modified sweep roll which stops the body before > it lays onto the back deck. One of things he emphases up front is the > finish position. Is this video oriented towards WW paddlers? It sounds like it, with emphasis on not doing a layback. How many rolls does he teach - just the one or are there others? Mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Patrick, I can do a screw roll and end up forward, or end up on the rear deck. Ending on the front deck does involve a distinct hip snap. Ending on the rear deck, the hip snap is less distinct in that steps follow in a clear order: 1. Set up, 2. sweep to 90 degrees, 3, drive knees and hull around until boat is more than 90 degrees up, and 4. lift shoulders and head about 3-4 inches from water surface to back deck. This is easily trained with the aid of a paddle float of any kind allowing student to become specifically aquainted with the coordination of each part of the roll. Once this is learned, by adding a sculling step at (3), the student can stop and rest at the surface and then finish at will over the rear deck. What is that "sweep forward" in your series of steps? Are you doing a styre roll? I ask again, is your screw roll ending on the front deck or the rear deck? Thanks, Chuck Sutherland Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] teaching rolling Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 17:03:57 +0100 In the Netherlands the preference seems to be to teach the C-to-C. in the US (in my experience at least) which favors the screw roll ending on the back deck. The Dutch method makes sense insofar that is breaks the roll down into several distinct steps: Invert (well duh) Push paddle to surface and slap blade twice (to establish surface contact) Sweep forward (((((?))))) and lock Brace and hip-snap Dislocate shoulder *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
From: "Bay and Beyond Sea Kayak Tours" <bayandbeyond_at_ozemail.com.au> > Any fans of the Pawlata roll as a progression step in teaching the roll? > > C to C versus the screw roll? What is better, what do you prefer? > I think that the choice of which roll to start with depends on the student. This is obviously more difficult in a class situation and is better for individual instruction. Some students need to achieve something easily to gain confidence and progress. This also applies to the less-athletically gifted who need to learn in smaller steps. For them, easy rolls like the Pivot Roll, Put Across or Pawlata, perhaps in that order, are a good start. It develops the sense that rolling is possible. Those who are more naturally adept at picking up physical skills (be they dancers, gymnasts, all around jocks etc) can start with a more difficult roll. There are many stories of these type watching someone roll and then doing it first time. For these types, even starting with a hand roll isn't out of the question. It certainly forces them into good body english and less muscle reliance. Most folks fit somewhere in between these extremes. I've seen instructors have very good success with starting with the c-c. It emphasizes the hip snap, head out last and every other aspect of rolling. The next progression is to the screw roll, with emphasis on technique. This can be done by forcing the student to slow the roll down to the limit once the basics are solid. If I was putting together a program, I'd be tempted to start with these two and promote/demote individuals as needed. For the c-c, demote to the Put Across, the screw roll to the Pawlata. Mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 09:42 PM 2/12/02 +1100, Bay and Beyond Sea Kayak Tours wrote: >Hi Everybody, > >I have just started following the digest format of paddlewise. Lots of >good advice. > >My questions: > >1) Looking for opinions on what is the best resource/ source of >information about teaching /how to teach rolling. > >2) Also if you have tried to teach people the counter intuitive skill >called rolling, what are your favorite techniques. What works, what doesn't? > >I start by getting people comfortable hanging up side down in their boats >with me standing beside them in waist deep water. I get them to count and >then tap the side of the boat when they want to be brought back >upright. If they haven't done a wet exit before we practice that as well. As I'm mentioned here before the club that I am associated with has new people do a couple of wet exits before anything else. That means that they are told not to attach a spray skirt until they've done a dry run of a wet exit outside the pool, and only after they've demonstrated a good wet exit are they given a paddle. >Next we start working on hip flicks explaining that the paddle looks >really sexy with all that sweeping but the power is your roll is in the >hips. I get folks to hang on the side of the pool/ on the nose of >another boat/ on to someone elses hands or what ever is close by that >offers support. I spend a little more time here. I'll have them get parallel to the edge of the pool and ask them to grab hold of it well. Then I'll ask them to try and put their head near their hands, or their ear in the water. Then I'll them to try doing again but try to keep the bottom of the boat flat to the water. Once they're in that position, I'll have them slowly rotate the boat with their hips as far as they can, then rotate it back up flat, then bring their head back up. This isn't really a "hip flick" but what it does is help loosen their hips. One of the things that I've notice with beginner trying to "hip snap" the first time, is that they are usually very stiff in the hips. Rather than try and get them to just do a hip snap, I think just slowly rotating the boat with the hips gives a better idea of what they're trying to accomplish. Once they look like they're turning the boat over and back with their hips I have them progressively move their head deeper into the water until they're able to turn completely upside down, holding onto the edge of the pool with one hand (the hand away from the edge of the pool), and then hip snap the boat back up. One trick I often use to keep their head coming up last is to tell them to look at the bottom of the pool until the boat is completely back under them. >Then it is time to start to introduce the paddle. I have the student get >into the set up position with paddle on the deck of the boat and body >leaning forward. Once upside down they slip the paddle out and pat the >blade twice on the surface of the water to be sure that they have broken >the surface of the water with the paddle. Jolie asked about the set up position and specifically about "with the paddle on the deck of the boat". Rather than use the term "set up position" I prefer to use "check point positions". The first checkpoint has the paddle parallel to the boat on the side opposite the side that they'll be coming up. From that point one can capsize in either direction to get to the next checkpoint. I make it a point to stress that they should hold the paddle next to the hull until they're completely upside down. The next checkpoint comes when they're upside down with the paddle parallel to the boat. I suggest that they check the position by pushing the paddle toward the sky and bending at the waist, stretching their side out as much as they can. Assuming they're going to do a C-to-C roll, the next checkpoint is achieved by bringing the paddle perpendicular to the boat with the hand that is closest to the boat reaching around the bottom as much as they can. If they've got the blade angle correct the outside blade should remain on the surface. Slapping the surface of the water with the outside blade confirms that they're in the third checkpoint position. Now do the hip snap and roll up. >I will then guide the paddle through the rolling motion asking them to >just feel the motion of the paddle with their muscles to try to develop >kinesthetic awareness. When the paddle is perpendicular they are starting >to come out and they finish off with the hip flick. After guiding them a >few times I will get them to try it on their own and start giving >corrections to the usual errors. (pulling across the deck of the boat >underwater or pulling straight down instead of sweeping across the surface). > >It is then a mater of doing less and less guiding of the paddle while they >get more and more of a feel for it. I usually end up supporting and >guiding the paddle with one finger at the end of the blade. You're teaching more of a sweep roll than a C-to-C. One of the most common failures that I have noticed when sweeping the paddle from parallel to perpendicular is the inability to keep the outside blade near the surface due to the angle of the blade. If they're rolling up on the right, make sure that they're cocking their right wrist forward as they sweep. >What do people think of using paddle floats to give the feel of the sweep >with out having to worry about the paddle being pulled down? The paddle >float is deflated a bit more each attempt to decrease the buoyance. Personally, I think they're useful if they're only used to demonstrate paddle positions. As others have mentioned, one can rely on the support for the paddle float to roll up in lieu of a good hip snap, but I still think they can help a lot to achieve some muscle memory. Even with a paddle float, if your hips are locked, it's difficult to come up. Here's how I use them: I have the person just set the paddle out with the float to the side perpendicular to the hull and try tilting the boat with their hips over and vigorously hip snapping back up. Then I have them progressively go over farther and farther until they can lie in the water on their side with just their face out of the water and have them practice a few slow hip rolls to turn the boat over with just their hips and back up, while leaving the side of the head on the water. Next I tell them to put their face in the water and hip snap back up. As long as they keep the paddle perpendicular to the boat it's difficult to actually get their head under water so the next thing I do is have them fall over with the paddle perpendicular, then bring the paddle parallel to the boat, then back to perpendicular and hip snap back up. At this point they're pretty much rolling up from a position where they are completely upside down. Once they've got that down, I have them set up in the first checkpoint position I describe above. If they're rolling up on the right, start with the paddle on the left side of the boat and capsize to the right. I tell them to let the boat settle upside down, bring the paddle to a perpendicular position, then roll up. At that point they can try letting the air out of the paddlefloat but I think that just going directly to an attempt to roll without the paddlefloat is better at this point because they just can't get the feel of the blade on the water with a paddlefloat attached. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Here is a quick summary of some of what I have received back regarding teaching rolling. Thanks everybody. If anyone else has ideas about teaching rolling to sea kayakers using Euro style paddles (ie: not Greenland style) the ideas are welcome. cheers Phil Sid wrote: Kent Ford has recently released a new video tape called the Kayak Roll. He presents a good progression for teaching rolling. You can order it from www.performancevideo.com John wrote: practicing hip flicks - spend a little more time here. get parallel to the edge of the pool, grab hold of it. Put head near hands, or ear in the water. Then try doing again but try to keep the bottom of the boat flat to the water. Once in that position, slowly rotate the boat with the hips as far as you can, then rotate it back up flat, then bring your head back up. This isn't really a "hip flick" but it helps loosen the hips. This is good for beginners who are usually very stiff in the hips. Slowly rotating the boat with the hips gives a better idea of what they're trying to accomplish. Once turning the boat over and back with the hips progressively move the head deeper into the water until able to turn completely upside down, holding onto the edge of the pool with one hand (the hand away from the edge of the pool), and then hip snap the boat back up. One trick to keep the head coming up last is to look at the bottom of the pool until the boat is completely back under you. I use the term "check point positions". The first checkpoint - paddle parallel to the boat on the side opposite the side that they'll be coming up. - hold the paddle next to the hull until completely upside down. The second checkpoint when upside down with paddle parallel to boat check the position by pushing paddle toward the sky and bending at the waist, stretching their side out as much as they can. (Assuming doing to do a C-to-C roll) the third checkpoint is achieved by bringing the paddle perpendicular to the boat with the hand that is closest to the boat reaching around the bottom as much as they can. If blade angle is correct the outside blade should remain on the surface. Slapping the surface of the water with the outside blade confirms the third checkpoint position. Now do hip snap and roll up. When teaching a sweep roll one common failure when sweeping the paddle from parallel to perpendicular is the inability to keep the outside blade near the surface due to the angle of the blade. If rolling up on the right, make sure that right wrist is cocked forward while sweeping. paddle floats - Personally, I think they're useful if they're only used to demonstrate paddle positions. Bill wrote: For books, I suggest the Paul Dutky book "The Bombproof Roll and Beyond". *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Phil wrote: - >paddle floats - Personally, I think they're useful if they're only >used to demonstrate paddle positions. G'Day, Thanks for the nice summary. Regarding paddlefloats. I found it useful as a substitute for another boat or side of a pool when learning the hipflick, because my standby person was usually not in a boat. Being older and needing to practise lots it was hard to find people with the patience to standby in the water so I generally asked them to keep a lookout from shore. For this reason I would not have been able to learn to roll without the paddlefloat but agree in doubting its use to learn the whole roll. Also find it extremely useful for paddlefloat reentry and rolls for self rescue; though I'm not saying one shouldn't learn a proper reentry and roll. The argument goes "If you're out of the boat because you've blown a roll or a reentry and roll then you will probably blow it again and waste valuable energy unless you use a paddlefloat". All the best, PeterO *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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