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From: <Rick.Sylvia_at_ferguson.com>
subject: [Paddlewise] Free Standing?
Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 15:03:28 -0500
I'm getting some great front and back channel help with my mad dash to get a tent. THANKS!  

In the comparisons and descriptive literature, I'm seeing "free standing" and "not free standing".  In a word... huh?

Would someone mind educating me on what that means and what are the benefits/disadvantages of each?

Thanks again.

Rick 


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From: Steven A. Holtzman <sh_at_actglobal.net>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Free Standing?
Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 12:30:44 -0800
Rick,

Free standing or not free standing indicates whether or not the tent MUST be
staked. However, my experience has been that if it is a free standing tent,
you had better put something heavy in it to keep it from blowing away. They
can usually be staked down too and I'll do that if I am going to spend more
than 1 nite at that location.

Hope this helps.

Steve

Rick said

In the comparisons and descriptive literature, I'm seeing "free standing"
and "not free standing".  In a word... huh?

Would someone mind educating me on what that means and what are the
benefits/disadvantages of each?

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From: <Gypsykayak_at_aol.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Free Standing?
Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2002 18:01:25 EST
IMO, you definitely want free standing.  A dome is invariably free standing..you can pick it up and move it somewhere else, turn it upside down to shake out the leaves, and you don't have to worry about whether you're perched on a rock or coral rock as in the Keys.

You've got to have free-standing if you intend to use one of the chickees in the Everglades - they are above-water wooden platforms.

Hooped tents are frequently not FS, they're usually lighter but they're a PIA.  You have to make sure they're properly staked out so the tent is taut.

Rick, buying tents is sooooooo much fun....don't rush too much.  You've got time.  

Two-pole domes are easier to set up, but a three-pole dome will offer better wind resistance.

I just checked sierratradingpost but they only have the higher priced tents on their site right now.

sandy kramer
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From: Peter Rathmann <prathman_at_attbi.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Free Standing?
Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2002 15:04:18 -0800
Sandy gave the pros of "free standing," so I'll give the other
viewpoint.

I have two tents, one is free-standing and the other is not. The
free-standing tent also weighs more and is always left at home if only
one tent is needed on a trip. As for the specific supposed negatives of
the non-freestanding tents:

1) Yes they're a little harder to move after you set them up, but I've
found it to be just as easy to check for rocks and stumps before
pitching the tent as to do so afterwards.  I always stake down the
free-standing tent anyway for protection from winds so it's no easier to
move later than my other tent.

2) Cleaning my non-free-standing tent is done by turning it inside out
and shaking once - very quick and easy when taking down camp.

3) I've set up my non-free-standing tent in several places where I
couldn't drive stakes (incl. on wood platforms) without any difficulty. 
Just tie a couple pieces of rope to something suitable.  For both tents,
the main problem in these situations has not been how to have the tent
keep its shape but rather how to keep it from blowing over in a strong
wind with no stakes to anchor it.

I suggest you check out lots of tents and see which features you find
the most appealing.  Also check the size and weight of the packed tents
- some can be hard to stow.
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From: David Walker <dwalker_at_newwave.net>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Free Standing?
Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2002 20:42:14 -0800
On the subject of tents I've noticed in some of the current issues of
Seakayaker a floor less tipi style tent being advertised by Kifaru  (
http://www.kifaru.net/TIPI.HTM ) .

It is of the free standing type design.

I sent them an email asking if folks were really using this type of tent
for 
kayaking and was told that they had placed the advert in SK at the
urging of
kayaker people who did in fact use them and had recommended that they
advertise in SK.

Anyone used one of these tents? If yes. Any comments on its use?

Thanks,

David
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From: <Rcgibbert_at_aol.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Free Standing?
Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 18:30:36 EST
Free standing tents require no pegs in the ground to hold the structure apart 
for erecting purposes. A non freestanding tent requires firm staking with the 
ground to spread the structure apart, keeping the tent geometry erect. 

If you are on a florida chickee a free standing is required as no nails or 
modification to the platform can be made to the chickee. This is a bit of a 
misnomer as the non free standing tents can be (painstakingly) tied down on 
the chickee in case the tent isn't free standing.

It is said that freestanding tents are better. I don't believe that to be 
true. The lightest tents, other than teepee styles, are usually non 
freestanding. If weight and packability are a priority (inevitably they will 
become one) non freestanding are the way to go. 

Freestanding tents are great because you can lift them up and empty them out 
to clean them of the dirt and stuff that gets tracked in. Beaches and 
chickees for the average person usually make a freestanding tent a better 
choice, because sand is hard to keep a tent tight and not flapping in the 
wind or drooping inward. 4 handkerchiefs each tied to an 18" length of 
parachute cord make great sand anchors for either tent style. It has been 
observed by many that those on the windy beach with freestanding tents run 
more than those with non freestanding. Reason: either they don't tie them 
down and the wind takes them; or, they use their water bags to weight the 
corners down to which every island critter in the neighborhood wants a drink 
out of. Randall Washburne once wrote, "Cuteness is the sole virtue of the 
ubiquitous racoon." How true.

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From: <Rcgibbert_at_aol.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Free Standing?
Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 19:31:03 EST
None of the park literature says not to. The platforms are peeeerrrrrrffffect 
for a hennessey. The platforms are 12x 12, though some are larger. Check out 
www.wildernesswaterway.com for some everglades chickee shots. The guy did a 
great job on the web site.

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From: Patrick Maun <patrick_at_patrickmaun.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Free Standing?
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 09:45:53 +0100
Just thought I'd throw my hat into the fray. It's not freestanding 
- but almost. A great and very strange tent is the Marmot Area 51.
This baby is *huge* and has one, count 'em, one pole to support 
that 51 sq(4.7m). feet of space. This is also a single wall tent 
that is really light for its size. something like 5lbs (2.26kilos).
It also goes up in about four seconds. You do have to tie or stake 
it to something but it is semi-free standing.

I picked mine up on REI Outlet for $89US. They have them on REI right 
now for $159, but you may be able to find them somewhere cheaper.


It's a Marmot, so great detailing and a quality tent. Though a single 
wall, I haven't had any probs with condensation yet. We'll see. 

http://www.marmot.com/products/tents/tent_prod_3sea_a51.html

Remember, you can never have too many [tents, boats, sleeping bags,
boots, hemlets...]

-Patrick






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From: <Gypsykayak_at_aol.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Free Standing?
Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 11:37:21 EST
The Tipi looks like fun, but I recently used a German floorless tent and did not like it one bit...apart from the Floridian creepy crawlies that might like to join us.

check out the Penta Tarp, look similar to the small Tipi...can be held up with a paddle.
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From: David Walker <dwalker_at_newwave.net>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Free Standing? Tipi style
Date: Sat, 09 Feb 2002 01:09:25 -0800
Gypsykayak_at_aol.com wrote:

> The Tipi looks like fun, but I recently used a German floorless tent and did not like it one bit...apart from the Floridian creepy crawlies that might like to join us.
>
> check out the Penta Tarp, look similar to the small Tipi...can be held up with a paddle.

Thanks for the tip on the Snowpeak Penta Tarp. I see it is a new product, listed as available Jan 2002. It is an interesting looking tarp.( snowpeak also has some other
interesting looking cooking gear and tent accessories)  But it falls short of my definition of a tent. I would think of the Penta tarp as more in line to be compared to or
used for the same functions as the Kelty Noah's tarp or the Dana Designs HATtarp or the Kifaru Paratarp or any of the Moss or Walrus wings. All useful sounding products.
One of which I will get some day.

I think the Dana Designs Nuk Tuk or the Moss Superfly IV would be more comparable to the Kifaru 4 man tipi. Less the ability to have an inside stove. I am not sure if the
Nuk Tuk or the Superfly have built in floors ( I think the superfly has an optional buckle in floor) which would keep out the "creepy crawlies". Which is of some concern
with a  floor less design if used in the wrong environment. Many of the use reports on the Kifaru page seem to be in either cold areas or desert, which I suppose has it
own types of critters which move about on more than four legs or tiny wings or slithers across the ground when not sleeping away the colder weather months.

Anyway thus far it seems that  no one on the list has direct experience with the Kifaru tipi. However the guy at Kifaru claims to have sold several to the kayaker types ,
several in Europe and more of the ultralite model than the standard. The ultralite packs slightly smaller than the standard model.

Regards,

David

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From: <Gypsykayak_at_aol.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Free Standing?
Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 11:41:02 EST
<<Remember, you can never have too many [tents, boats, sleeping bags,
boots, hemlets...]

-Patrick>>>

MY KIND OF MAN...R U AVAILABLE??  :)

actually, you're in Holland now, aren't you?  how's that going?

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From: <Gypsykayak_at_aol.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Free Standing?
Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 11:46:46 EST
<<<You do have to tie or stake it to something but it is semi-free standing.>>

huh?? that sounds like being "a little bit pregnant."

<< http://www.marmot.com/products/tents/tent_prod_3sea_a51.html

very interesting, but i couldn't find other photos, just written specs....it does have a floor, doesn't it?  

Is it an inner tent with a separate fly or some sort of hybrid?  it looks as if there is a wall and floor inner tent.

sandy


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From: David Walker <dwalker_at_newwave.net>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Free Standing? Area 51
Date: Sat, 09 Feb 2002 02:05:29 -0800
Gypsykayak_at_aol.com wrote:

> <<<You do have to tie or stake it to something but it is semi-free standing.>>
>
> huh?? that sounds like being "a little bit pregnant."
>
> << http://www.marmot.com/products/tents/tent_prod_3sea_a51.html
>
> very interesting, but i couldn't find other photos, just written specs....it does have a floor, doesn't it?
>
> Is it an inner tent with a separate fly or some sort of hybrid?  it looks as if there is a wall and floor inner tent.

More complete description of the Marmot Area 51 tent can be seen at these two  web sites:

http://www.backcountrygear.com/catalog/tentdetail.cfm?PRODUCTS__productID=MA8052

It says it has a "bath tub floor"

or here

http://www.gorp.com/gorp/gear/features/buy_tent3.htm



BTW- it certainly pays to shop around. Doing a google search on the Area 51 I found the sale price from $600 to $160.
With the majority in the $180-200 range.

David


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