Peter Treby wrote: > snip >during a gale off Trial Island when I broke my paddle in half doing a > self-rescue< end snip > Could this have been a paddlefloat fixed outrigger rescue? > PT, Melbourne, OZ. "Twas a messy affair involving a previously weakened wooden paddle, an attempted re-entry and roll, and a paddle-float style non-fixed self-rescue substituting a large 3 foot by 3 foot Sea Seat in place of the normal paddlefloat. The paddle broke during the re-enrty and roll. My point was that relying on a boat-to-paddle tether (leash) isn't ultimately foolproof. Seas were so rough I lost contact with the kayak instantly if I remember correctly, and the personal tether saved my butt -- or at least my boat. But I have broken paddles performing fixed and non-fixed paddlefloat outrigger rescues in other instances. (That I've survived this long without a drysuit is a testament to a good practice regime I normally keep up). I've seen various comments on this list with respect to the usefulness of the paddlefloat rescue (in its various configurations). While I can attest to success in fairly rough seas with good balance and proper setup, another option folks might like to practice is the "face-up" paddlefloat rescue. My friend, Doug Aldeson teaches the basic manouver. Rather than swim up onto the rear deck with your face toward the deck, try lying on the back deck with your face looking to the sky. Slip your feet and legs into the cockpit, keeping low with some weight on the paddle shaft for support, then simply slide in. It is very easy to do depending on your weight and flexibility, and avoids the difficult juncture with the normal maneuver where you need to rotate around precariously trying not to loose your balance, break your paddle, and maybe die. When it comes to self-rescues, most of us are such losers. I say that with love :-) We really need to get out and practice, experiment, think outside the box a bit, keep it as simple as possible, develop a no-fail attitude, and not skip a beat with a few backups in place. Ultimately, good seamanship keeps us out of trouble in the first place, or at least trying to keep within our skill level. And that means having the ability to self rescue in the seas you might be contemplating "challenging". That is the credo I've tried to live by -- literally. Doug Lloyd *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
"The paddle broke during the re-entry and roll." In any rescue, I suppose, paddle preservation has to be part of the plan, if possible, although in extremis you're probably just concentrating on getting back into the boat quickly, dealing with the rough water, etc. The strength of the paddleshaft ought to be bombproof, ideally, but this conflicts with the need for a light paddle for what we do most, paddle forwards lifting the paddle thousands of times a day. I was guessing at a fixed paddlefloat outrigger rescue, as of the various rescues I've tried, this seems to put the most strain on the paddleshaft. The other thing that cracks a paddle shaft is putting it across the back deck while getting in and out of the boat. A paddle shaft can have hidden weaknesses after using it this way. "My point was that relying on a boat-to-paddle tether (leash) isn't ultimately foolproof. Seas were so rough I lost contact with the kayak instantly if I remember correctly, and the personal tether saved my butt -- or at least my boat." Now I think I'd better start experimenting with body to boat tethers among other skills to refine. If the paddleshaft breaks, there goes the paddle to boat connection, and maybe, there goes the boat. I know I've got your article in SeaKayaker somewhere, if the kids haven't chopped up that issue for school project illustrations, but Doug, can I ask what is your preferred person-to-boat tether? "another option folks might like to practice is the "face-up" paddlefloat rescue." Fill this in a little; how do you get your body onto the back deck with this rescue? Face up and do a dolphin-like backwards swallow dive? Which side of the paddle shaft are you when you launch backwards onto the back deck? "When it comes to self-rescues, most of us are such losers. I say that with love :-) We really need to get out and practice, experiment, think outside the box a bit, keep it as simple as possible, develop a no-fail attitude, and not skip a beat with a few backups in place. Ultimately, good seamanship keeps us out of trouble in the first place, or at least trying to keep within our skill level. And that means having the ability to self rescue in the seas you might be contemplating "challenging". That is the credo I've tried to live by -- literally." Well put. PT, Melbourne, OZ. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Peter Treby wrote: > In any rescue, I suppose, paddle preservation has to be part of the plan, if > possible, although in extremis you're probably just concentrating on getting > back into the boat quickly, dealing with the rough water, etc. <snip> I busted up all my new Lendal paddle shafts. I removed the new blades and glued them on the older shafts still in good shape where the older, inferior blades had snapped. Older and heavier is better (that view helps my spouse love me still :-) ) This applies to the paddle shafts, anyway. > I was guessing at a fixed paddlefloat outrigger rescue, as of the various > rescues I've tried, this seems to put the most strain on the paddleshaft. The > other thing that cracks a paddle shaft is putting it across the back deck > while getting in and out of the boat. A paddle shaft can have hidden > weaknesses after using it this way. That's what happened to me, only it was after teaching a paddlefloat rescue to a group, not the back-deck beach entry. It was still my fault to use faulty equipment. I also wonder if wood has a certain life expectancy that's shorter the glass. > Now I think I'd better start experimenting with body to boat tethers among > other skills to refine. If the paddleshaft breaks, there goes the paddle to > boat connection, and maybe, there goes the boat. I certainly don't use my boat-to-person tether as much as I used to. When I do use it, its kind of like my deep-draft rudder -- if I really feel I need it, then I really do, otherwise I don't. Know what I mean?. But its not all the time. I'd still rather have people learn to surface from a capsize holding their boat and paddle. But in breaking offshore seas with mixed opposing tidal currents and high wind gusts, it's a challenge mate. Having a competent partner(s) might be better than a tether, but while good partners are hard to find but not impossible, finding one(s) that want's to assume the same levels of risk as you do can be difficult. Most paddlers jam out on me just when it gets interesting. I say this only to legitimize my back-up gear dependent methods, nothing more. There are a thousand paddlers better than me, but they don't want to push past a certain point -- and they shouldn't have to. (I'm not talking whitewater kayakers here). > I know I've got your article in SeaKayaker somewhere, if the kids haven't > chopped up that issue for school project illustrations, but Doug, can I ask > what is your preferred person-to-boat tether? Chopped up? Maybe burnt would be better. Or just forgotten would be fine by me. My preferred tether is a length of webbing from bow to a quick-release belt for a non-clutered deck, and a coiled-in-a-pouch length of webbing from a quick-release belt to a caribiner (which can be hooked to whatever-you-like, for the cluttered deck boat). I have both. I have three kayaks. I DO NOT USE ROPE/CORDAGE. I DO NOT USE IN SURF. I DO NOT USE IN FRONT OF NOVICES. I DO SEE THEM AS AN OPTION, BUT ONLY AN OPTION. THEY CAN KILL YOU. I ONLY PROMOTE THEIR USE WITH QUALIFICATIONS -- can you tell? > "another option folks might like to practice is the "face-up" paddlefloat > rescue." > > Fill this in a little; how do you get your body onto the back deck with this > rescue? Face up and do a dolphin-like backwards swallow dive? You need a fixed-deck outrigger paddlefloat system (see Matt's website for details), then face forward to bow with your back up on the shaft that extends out at 90 degrees. > Which side of the paddle shaft are you when you launch backwards onto the back > deck? If you are doing a port side rescue, as your back goes up the paddleshaft, your right arm is behind the cockpit to the back of it with your right hand grasping the back of the cockpit rim on the opposite side of the cockpit to the side where your body is. Your left arm is draped over the shaft with your left hand holding the shaft firmly toward the distal end of the paddle near the blade/float.All but your kidneys, bum, and legs should be out of the water now. Then, keeping your head well back and low along the rear gunwale, maneuver your feet up out of the water and into the cockpit in front of you. At this point, your butt should be directly in line with the back of the cockpit and your body forming an semi contorted elbow in two separate planes. If your feet are hooked in properly, you should be able to lift your bum out of the water and swing it onto the cockpit rim. Keep looking heavenward, saying your prayers, with your head held back and low. Remember, one hand is still on the shaft, and the other grabbing the cockpit rim, so it is very easy to perform a sit-up maneuver which leaves you sliding into the cockpit while avoiding the tendency with the normal paddlefloat reentry which often results in the "yellow rainbow" flash and splash. YMMV depending on cockpit size and other factors. The more shock cord play in your rear deck fixed-rigging , the more spongy this rescue gets during the sit-up phase. You also don't need to time it as much with the waves as you do with the normal methodology. BTW, the amount you engage your back onto the rear deck depends on how tall you are, but most of us can usually go from the back-on-shaft to sitting position in a few smooth seconds -- mostly off to the side of the kayak. Canadians may want to try out the spring 2002 issue of Adventure Kayak Magazine for a quick summary by Doug A. In the end, you might need to modify some of the basic phases, but do give it a try. It is definitely a lot more forgiving of paddle breakage. > > > "When it comes to self-rescues, most of us are such losers. I say that with > love :-) We really need to get out and practice, experiment, think outside the > box a bit, keep it as simple as possible, develop a no-fail attitude, and not > skip a beat with a few backups in place. Ultimately, good seamanship keeps us > out of trouble in the first place, or at least trying to keep within our skill > level. And that means having the ability to self rescue in the seas you might > be contemplating "challenging". That is the credo I've tried to live by -- > literally." > > Well put. Thanks Peter. When I said "loosers", I didn't mean Paddlewisers. I was thinking of the masses. PW'ers are the cream - maybe that's why my cholesterol goes up when I spend to much time clacking on the keyboards on PW excersising. my opinions :-) Doug > > PT, Melbourne, OZ. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Doug wrote: <SNIP>>>>>>>>Remember, one hand is still on the shaft, and the other grabbing the cockpit rim, so it is very easy to perform a sit-up maneuver which leaves you sliding into the cockpit while avoiding the tendency with the normal paddlefloat reentry which often results in the "yellow rainbow" flash and splash. YMMV depending on cockpit size and other factors. The more shock cord play in your rear deck fixed-rigging , the more spongy this rescue gets during the sit-up phase. You also don't need to time it as much with the waves as you do with the normal methodology. BTW, the amount you engage your back onto the rear deck depends on how tall you are, but most of us can usually go from the back-on-shaft to sitting position in a few smooth seconds -- mostly off to the side of the kayak. Canadians may want to try out the spring 2002 issue of Adventure Kayak Magazine for a quick summary by Doug A. In the end, you might need to modify some of the basic phases, but do give it a try. It is definitely a lot more forgiving of paddle breakage.>>>>>> I don't remember ever experiencing the "yellow rainbow" so it is hard for me to conceive of anyone but a novice experiencing this either more than a few times. Doug, do you often experience this? After one or two times I always figured the novice would have learned the lesson to keep their weight to the paddlefloat side. do others often experience tipping to the non paddlefloat side. If so please let us know if there is a serious problem here I have been overlooking based on my own experience. Originally, I advocated using a paddlefloat (a water jug) that could be partially filled with water to prevent this possibility (and the first envelope style float that we made had a big dump valve on one of the chambers so it could also be partially filled with water). I soon realized that it was easy to shift ones weight to the paddlefloat side (at least with a fixed outrigger--as we recommend doing this rescue) and the risk of the "yellow rainbow" seemed pretty small then. I have never tried the face up rescue you are advocating with just a paddlefloat. I have used that method to get in between mine and a rescuers kayak I'll give it a try with a paddlefloat the next time I practice rescues. From what I gather from your description it looks like the face-up rescue puts a lot more weight on the paddle shaft than the face-down method we describe on our website and literature. Having never broken a paddle doing a paddlefloat rescue even with a 20 oz. paddle I can only conclude that some other methods of using the paddlefloat may result in broken paddles from what some are saying here. Would anyone who has broken a paddle doing a paddlefloat rescue please let us know just what you were doing at the point the paddle broke and where the paddle broke. I am concerned that some techniques have the paddler putting a lot of weight on the paddle shaft as they walk over it coming around from behind or throw a knee up on the middle of the shaft trying to climb up on the deck. I think everyone should learn to re-enter and roll but there are some downsides to it especially for new paddlers. Even with a paddlefloat it is not likely to be successful for a non roller. The paddlers head will most likely have to be immersed in cold water to perform the reentry before rolling. Novices are very reticent to put their head back under water even when directed to do so by a rescuer like during a reenter and Eskimo bow or side rescue. Also, the rescue isn't over until you have pumped the kayak out. The reenter and roll scoops up extra water during the roll and without the paddle fixed to the deck the pumping process (unless you have an electric pump) is much more difficult due to the need to balance or brace the tippy kayak (full of free water which destroys a hulls stability) while also trying to pump out the kayak. Too many things to do at once. I think its best to just shift your weight to the fixed paddlefloat side of the kayak and concentrate on pumping rather than bracing or holding your paddle in a stabilizing position while you pump. In most kayaks it is a lot easier to fasten the paddle to the deck from the water than later after you have rolled up. I think the extra few seconds it takes to fasten the paddle to the kayak are well worth it later on during the pumping out process. So if you don't have a way to fasten the paddle to the deck of the kayak that you happened to capsize (and you know how to Eskimo roll) by all means use the reenter and roll (that you hopefully have practiced). I suggest one learn all the rescues you can and then think about the vulnerabilities of each. Then pick the one from your quiver that is most appropriate for the situation you happen to find yourself in. I'd also be interested in hearing any stories of breaking a paddle in any way. Please tell us the brand, model, materials, and feather of any paddle you've broken, and just what you were doing when it broke. For instance: I broke a Lightning Ultralight 2 piece paddle (with the old smooth "Skypole" ultralight shaft) when trying to catch a large whitecapping wave in Baja in a Khatsalano that had 10 gallons of water and 2 weeks of gear aboard (and about 2" of freeboard on the back deck). I dug in hard to accelerate as quickly as possible just as the next wave crest came by and hit the paddle blade from behind. The shaft literally exploded between my hand and the blade with a loud bang and a puff of black "smoke" (just where the oval turns into a round shaft again--and probably creates a stress riser). With two weeks to go on the trip I was glad I had a good quality spare (which I was very careful not to overstress--while thinking about how I was going to connect the incompatible good halves of both paddles if I broke the 4 piece spare paddle too). Matt Broze http://www.marinerkayaks.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. 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I broke a Werner paddle blade in a pool session trying to "pole valt" off the bottom after missing a roll. The blade developed a hinge right in the middle below the center rib. My fault! The same session I also broke a friends greenland stick, she said that it had developed a crack prior to her lending it to me. I still felt guilty though. John Blackburn *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
John- I see lots of broken sticks at the pool sessions don't feel so bad. I think the polite thing to do is offer to replace the wood. Grade A ceder 2x8's near me go for around $8 or $10. Most people enjoy making them so a broken one can be a welcome thing. JFF >I also broke a friends greenland stick, she said that it had >developed a crack prior to her lending it to me. I still felt >guilty though. > >John Blackburn -- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> Doug wrote: > In the end, you might need to modify some of the basic phases, but > do give it a try. I don't think Doug A. tried it with a ocean cockpit, cause it ain't as easy as it looks. I modified my Ellesmere last year to add a knee tube. Then I discovered I can't do the regular paddlefloat entry, since my feet are too big to roll over with the knee tube there*. So I tried the face up version this weekend at a pool session. The first two times didn't work - once I got my feet into the cockpit, the kayak rolled onto the float side so much that the coaming was submerged! I reconsidered and discovered that I had to do a Fosbury Flop over the paddle shaft (like a high jumper) in order to keep my body in the water and get my legs inside. With the paddle shaft at my lower back, instead of the shoulder area as Doug A. demos in the Adventure Kayak article (latest issue not online yet), I could manage it ok. It's not as easy as the face down approach, but it's doable. I was wondering about the practicality of this entry in rough conditions, since the technique really reduces your freeboard on one side. I better keep my reenter and roll up to speed for my Ellesmere and save the face up paddlefloat reentry for my Solstice. YMMV Moral of the story: practice! Mike PS - I will try it some more to see if I can refine it and gain confidence in the technique for this kayak. *I tried the cross-feet entry like I do with my WW kayak (center foam pillar prevents rotation from face down to face up), but couldn't get that to work - less stability in the Ellesemere. I should practice that some more too. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Matt wrote:- SNIP>I think everyone should learn to re-enter and roll but there >are some downsides to it especially for new paddlers. Even >with a paddlefloat it is not likely to be successful for a >non roller. SNIP >I'd also be interested in hearing any stories of breaking a paddle in any >way. Please tell us the brand, model, materials, and feather of any paddle >you've broken, G'Day Matt, Thanks for the critique of the Paddlefloat reentry and roll - although I much prefer that technique the points about it requiring an ability to reenter and roll in the first place and the instability due to water in the kayak are well taken. I'm fortunate to have a small cockpit and electrical and mechanical pumps so don't suffer too badly from the instability issue but can see how this doesn't always apply. Will continue to practise both Paddlefloat methods! Three experiences with broken paddles - not all mine 1. I broke the blade of a home made narrow asymmetric spoon paddle with a feather of about 45 degrees while trying to lift up off the beach with the paddle, following a failed roll when learning to roll. 2. A friend snapped his blade when throwing the paddle onto the beach and it hit a pebble - model unknown 3. Another friend tried a very vigorous storm roll and broke the blade, feather angle about 80 I think, model unknown but from memory looked like a whitewater curved blade.(He then paddled home with one paddle faster than I could with two) My friends have become quite good at repairing paddles! All the best, PeterO *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Matt, The only time I saw a paddle break during a paddle float rescue was when I was demonstrating the use of a sling with the paddle float. This can put tremendous stress on the paddle shaft, so it needs to be used with care. I think it's possible that the way we normally teach new paddlers to use the paddle to stabilize their boat while launching may normally be more stressful on the paddle shaft than self rescues. Regards, Dave Carlson Matt Broze wrote: > <snip> > Having never broken a paddle doing a paddlefloat rescue even with a 20 oz. > paddle I can only conclude that some other methods of using the paddlefloat > may result in broken paddles from what some are saying here. Would anyone > who has broken a paddle doing a paddlefloat rescue please let us know just > what you were doing at the point the paddle broke and where the paddle > broke. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Matt said: I don't remember ever experiencing the "yellow rainbow" so it is hard for me to conceive of anyone but a novice experiencing this either more than a few times. Doug, do you often experience this? NOTE: REPLY IN CAPS TO DIFFERENTIATE FROM SENDER (NOT MEANT TO IMPLY VERBAL VOLUME) NO. MAYBE THE FIRST TIME I TRIED IT YEARS AGO, BUT THEN THE REAL FIRST TIME I TRIED AN OUTRIGGER PADDLEFLOAT RESCUE WAS THE EARLY 80's, AND I WAS USING THE MARINER SELF-RESCUE METHOD WHICH USES A WATER JUG (CARRIED IT FAITHFULLY ON MY NARROW NORDCAPP FOR YEARS, YOU KNOW, 'CAUSE MATT SAID SO). THE WEIGHT OF THE WATER PREVENTED NOVICE TYPE ERRORS. After one or two times I always figured the novice would have learned the lesson to keep their weight to the paddlefloat side. do others often experience tipping to the non paddlefloat side. I'VE SEEN NOVICES IN MY CLASS DO THIS. GUESS I'M A POOR TEACHER If so please let us know if there is a serious problem here I have been overlooking based on my own experience. Originally, I advocated using a paddlefloat (a water jug) that could be partially filled with water to prevent this possibility (and the first envelope style float that we made had a big dump valve on one of the chambers so it could also be partially filled with water). I soon realized that it was easy to shift ones weight to the paddlefloat side (at least with a fixed outrigger--as we recommend doing this rescue) and the risk of the "yellow rainbow" seemed pretty small then. (COVERED ABOVE - SHOULD HAVE READ FORWARD IN YOUR POST) I have never tried the face up rescue you are advocating with just a paddlefloat. I have used that method to get in between mine and a rescuers kayak I'll give it a try with a paddlefloat the next time I practice rescues. THE NEXT TIME YOU PRACTICE? COME ON MATT, YOU MEAN "_WHEN_ I PRACTICE NEXT TIME." (AS IN ONE SHOULD BE PRACTICING ALL THE TIME :-) rescue puts a lot more weight on the paddle shaft than the face-down method we describe on our website and literature. YES AND NO. YOU NEED TO GET A REALLY GOOD ARM STRETCH OVER TO THE OTHER SIDE OF YOUR COCKPIT COMING. IN A SENSE, THERE IS A FAIR BIT OF WEIGHT ON YOUR PADDLE, BUT THE POINT WAS THAT YOU AVOID THE "SUDDEN" WEIGHT OF THE INEVITABLE MOMENT WHEN YOU HAVE TO TURN AROUND DOING IT CONVENTIONALLY. YMMV, AS PER. Having never broken a paddle doing a paddlefloat rescue even with a 20 oz. paddle I can only conclude that some other methods of using the paddlefloat may result in broken paddles from what some are saying here. Would anyone who has broken a paddle doing a paddlefloat rescue please let us know just what you were doing at the point the paddle broke and where the paddle broke. THE MORE FLOTATION IN YOUR PADDLEFLOAT, THE MORE CHANCE OF BREAKING IT, AS THERE IS LESS CHANCE OF IT SUBMERGING (DURING POOR TECHNIQUE). THEN AGAIN, I'VE SUBMERGED SMALL FLOATS, UNTIL THERE IS SO MUCH LEVERAGE DUE TO BOUYANCY ON THE PADDLE ONCE DOWN AT DEPTH, THAT THE SHAFT JUST SNAPS. IT IS COMMON KNOWLEDGE THAT PADDLES BREAK DURING PADDLEFLOAT RESCUE PRACTICE AND DURING THE REAL THING. I AM VERY SURPRISED YOU TAKE EXCEPTION WITH THIS. NO NEGATIVITY TO YOU INTENDED; ITS JUST THAT 'EVERYONE KNOWS' THIS IS A DISTINCT POSSIBILITY AND REALITY. I am concerned that some techniques have the paddler putting a lot of weight on the paddle shaft as they walk over it coming around from behind or throw a knee up on the middle of the shaft trying to climb up on the deck. WHATEVER THE REASON, POOR TECHNIQUE IS WHAT ULTIMATELY IS RESPONSIBLE FOR PADDLE BREAKAGE. I think everyone should learn to re-enter and roll but there are some downsides to it especially for new paddlers. Even with a paddlefloat it is not likely to be successful for a non roller. The paddlers head will most likely have to be immersed in cold water to perform the reentry before rolling. NOT NECESSARILY. THERE ARE A NUMBER OF PADDLEFLOAT AND NON-PADDLEFLOAT R&R TECHNIQUES. SOME KEEP THE HEAD UP BUT FLOOD THE COCKPIT MORE, AND VISA VERSA. I TEACH THREE R&R METHODS, AND MY FRIEND DOUG ALDERSON, A NUMBER MORE. I'D LIKE TO DO AN ARTICLE FOR SK MAGAZINE SOMETIME ON THESE, WITH SOME THOUGHTS ON STABILIZATION. Novices are very reticent to put their head back under water even when directed to do so by a rescuer like during a reenter and Eskimo bow or side rescue. Also, the rescue isn't over until you have pumped the kayak out. The reenter and roll scoops up extra water during the roll and without the paddle fixed to the deck the pumping process (unless you have an electric pump) is much more difficult due to the need to balance or brace the tippy kayak (full of free water which destroys a hulls stability) while also trying to pump out the kayak. Too many things to do at once. I think its best to just shift your weight to the fixed paddlefloat side of the kayak and concentrate on pumping rather than bracing or holding your paddle in a stabilizing position while you pump. WELL YES, THERE ARE ADVANTAGES AND DISADVANTAGES TO EVERYTHING. WEARING CORRECT GEAR, COLD WATER WITH WARM AIR VS COLD WATER WITH COLD AIR -- ALL THESE THINGS DETERMINE WHAT IS GOING TO WORK BEST FOR A PARTICULAR PERSON AND EXPERIENCE LEVEL, ETC. In most kayaks it is a lot easier to fasten the paddle to the deck from the water than later after you have rolled up. I think the extra few seconds it takes to fasten the paddle to the kayak are well worth it later on during the pumping out process. So if you don't have a way to fasten the paddle to the deck of the kayak that you happened to capsize (and you know how to Eskimo roll) by all means use the reenter and roll (that you hopefully have practiced). I suggest one learn all the rescues you can and then think about the vulnerabilities of each. MOST DEFINITELY. MATT, I AGREE WITH YOU 100% ON THE FIXED OUTRIGGER, BUT JUST REMEMBER, THERE ARE SOME VERY WELL RESPECTED NAMES IN THE KAYAKING SAFETY FIELD THAT ADVOCATE A NON-FIXED PADDLEFLOAT RESCUE. AND I TOO WONDER HOW THEY GET THEIR SKIRTS BACK ON THE COAMING, BUT HEY, ITS A CHANGING WORLD OUT THERE AND US OLD FOGIES AREN'T THE ONLY ONES WITH ALL THE ANSWERS ANYMORE (NEVER WERE).. Then pick the one from your quiver that is most appropriate for the situation you happen to find yourself in. I'd also be interested in hearing any stories of breaking a paddle in any way. Please tell us the brand, model, materials, and feather of any paddle you've broken, and just what you were doing when it broke. DOES DRIVING OVER THEM WITH A CAR COUNT? IF I SAY IT PUBLICLY HERE, THE DEALER MIGHT READ THIS AND CALL ME ON MY LAST WARRANTY CLAIM :-) For instance: I broke a Lightning Ultralight 2 piece paddle (with the old smooth "Skypole" ultralight shaft) when trying to catch a large whitecapping wave in Baja in a Khatsalano that had 10 gallons of water and 2 weeks of gear aboard (and about 2" of freeboard on the back deck). I dug in hard to accelerate as quickly as possible just as the next wave crest came by and hit the paddle blade from behind. The shaft literally exploded between my hand and the blade with a loud bang and a puff of black "smoke" (just where the oval turns into a round shaft again--and probably creates a stress riser). With two weeks to go on the trip I was glad I had a good quality spare (which I was very careful not to overstress--while thinking about how I was going to connect the incompatible good halves of both paddles if I broke the 4 piece spare paddle too). I THINK DAN HARRISON CAN WORK WITH THIS ONE FOR A HOMER STYLE EPIC. JUST KIDDING MATT. DON'T LET MY FRIVOLITY DETRACT FROM GETTING SOME GOOD RESPONSES TO YOUR QUESTIONS. WELL, I HAVE BROKEN A FEW PADDLES BEFORE MATT, USUALLY IN SURF OR ROUGH WATER PADDLEFLOAT PRACTICE - AND AT THE POOL AND LAKE. ONE DAY, I'LL HAVE TO GET A STAINLESS STEEL PADDLE AND KAYAK; UNTIL THEN, FIBERGLASSDESTRUCTUSS. DOUG (WHO JUST SPENT $500.00 ON MORE GYM EQUIPMENT -- GUESS I COULD HAVE AFFORDED THAT GORETEX SUIT IF I REALLY WANTED TO) Matt Broze http://www.marinerkayaks.com ------------------------------ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. 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Per Mariner Kayak's recommendation, I carry as a spare an aluminum Carlisle paddle--cheap and tough enough for paddle-float re-entry practice. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Doug Lloyd" <dougl_at_islandnet.com> To: "Matt Broze" <mkayaks_at_oz.net>; <PaddleWise_at_paddlewise.net> Sent: Monday, March 04, 2002 10:44 PM Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Face Up Paddlefloat Rescue and more > . . . >ONE DAY, I'LL HAVE TO GET A STAINLESS STEEL PADDLE AND KAYAK > *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Doug' wrote >SOME KEEP THE HEAD UP BUT FLOOD THE COCKPIT MORE, AND >VISA VERSA. I TEACH THREE R&R METHODS, AND MY FRIEND DOUG >ALDERSON, A NUMBER MORE. I'D LIKE TO DO AN ARTICLE FOR SK >MAGAZINE SOMETIME ON THESE, WITH SOME THOUGHTS ON STABILIZATION. G'Day Doug' Look forward to reading your R&R articles - particularly methods for reducing water in the cockpit. Hadn't realised there would be so much variation in technique. Re beginners possible dislike of putting their head under water - I remember being told that you could push your self under the boat, put your head in the cockpit and take a breath before completing the reentry and roll. These days I can't think of any good reason for doing this, in fact I wonder if it might not be hazardous in rough water. But at the time it was so intriguing that any concerns were forgotten. Maybe it was just a teaching ploy! All the best, PeterO *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
From: "PeterO" <rebyl_kayak_at_iprimus.com.au> > Re beginners possible dislike of putting their head under water - I remember > being told that you could push your self under the boat, put your head in > the cockpit and take a breath before completing the reentry and roll. These > days I can't think of any good reason for doing this If you do a somersault reentry (vs a side floating reentry) this is the easiest way to set up. With your head inside the cockpit and a hand on either side of the coaming, you just flip and you're in. I no longer try holding the paddle while doing this, but rather stuff the paddle under the foredeck lines, grab it once I'm seated and roll. >, in fact I wonder if it might not be hazardous in rough water. Never tried it outside of a pool or very calm lake. I get the feeling it would be quite safe. I sometimes wrap my legs around the hull and hang on for a while to rest before somersaulting. I get the feeling it would be a secure way to hang on in a rough sea. I'd be interested in hearing from someone who's tried it in rough conditions. Mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Michael wrote >With your head inside the cockpit and a hand on either >side of the coaming, you just flip and you're in. Doug wrote >simply somersaulting back in upside-down, the holding the shaft >of the paddle with paddlefloat attached at a 45 degree angle. G'Day, Trouble is I'm in and scalped. Heres the problem - I'm short on hair and have to push down and away from the cockpit before flipping otherwise I graze a bald head against the coaming or the deck bag (not sure which though got rid of the deckbag a few weeks ago). Works fine in swell and chop, haven't tried it in breaking waves. Like the idea of Doug's 45 degree paddle technique - Guess the paddle shaft is kept 45 degrees below the water until the rescue is complete, which means the boat is moving while the paddle is fixed in the water? Will try it this weekend in a Klepper. All the best, PeterO *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Michael Daly said: I don't think Doug A. tried it with a ocean cockpit, cause it ain't as easy as it looks. ----------- Mike, Depends on the angle of the cockpit. Some peak more, so it is far easier to get your legs in, in those situations. I even know one fellow who can enter his Pintail instantly, but could not get into one of the other VCP kayaks with the exact same cockpit, and had to order the keyhole version. I agree the face up method for the paddlefloat isn't a good option for some people, but it is worth a try. By trying different methods, one or two will eventually work out well for your particular boat/body combination. I like spending an entire long afternoon at the lake in summer, experimenting with various self-rescue techniques, trying stuff not in the books or not promoted much. My favorite methods often emerge from things I tried by accident or modified a bit. 'Course, making them work in real sea conditions and cold water can be another thing entirely. One of my favorite paddlefloat self rescues involves simply somersaulting back in upside-down, the holding the shaft of the paddle with paddlefloat attached at a 45 degree angle. No sweep, no roll, no movement. Just hold it steady at 45. This is as close to a self-righting movement that you can get. The boat just follows through to the upright position, with you left braced on the float. Well, thanks Mike for trying out the Face-Up method and reporting back. I don't like it myself, but then I don't like the regular method much either. Doug *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
From: "Doug Lloyd" <dougl_at_islandnet.com> > One of my favorite paddlefloat self rescues involves > simply somersaulting back in upside-down, the holding the shaft of the > paddle with paddlefloat attached at a 45 degree angle. No sweep, no > roll, no movement. Just hold it steady at 45. This is as close to a > self-righting movement that you can get. The boat just follows through > to the upright position, with you left braced on the float. I'm having a hard time visualizing this, but it sounds interesting. I'll try it this weekend in the pool - or at least what I understand it to be. Actually, one thing that I've tried is to do a somersault reentry with a paddlefloat in my hand. Then I do a paddlefloat assisted hand roll. I do a layback and throw the other hand over in order to use the limited lift of the paddlefloat so close to the hull. The advantage is that the paddlefloat is not on the paddle and the paddle is not stuck under the bungies. You're ready to paddle when up and the float is ready for another go if you overturn again. I actually tried this for entirely another reason. The Great Lakes have lots of shipwrecks; many are just below the surface in shallow water. They are difficult to see due to surface glare. I've experimented with using a dive mask and snorkel to float on the surface and see submerged stuff at leisure. I don't exit the kayak, just flop to the side and float face down. I need the paddlefloat to provide enough bouyancy; the pfd isn't enough in this position. One hand is in the float where the paddle blade goes and the other is free to "swim" me and the kayak around. When I want to come back up, I use the float to roll up. The paddle is either under the foredeck bungies or floating on its tether. Mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Doug Lloyd wrote: > . One of my favorite paddlefloat self rescues involves > simply somersaulting back in upside-down, the holding the shaft of the > paddle with paddlefloat attached at a 45 degree angle. No sweep, no > roll, no movement. Just hold it steady at 45. This is as close to a > self-righting movement that you can get. The boat just follows through > to the upright position, with you left braced on the float. Is this 45 degrees to the water surface and 90 degrees to the longitudinal axis of the boat? Sounds like something I want to try as soon as it warms up here. John Blackburn *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Doug Lloyd wrote: One of my favorite paddlefloat self rescues involves simply somersaulting back in upside-down, the holding the shaft of the paddle with paddlefloat attached at a 45 degree angle. No sweep, no roll, no movement. Just hold it steady at 45. This is as close to a self-righting movement that you can get. The boat just follows through to the upright position, with you left braced on the float. John asks: Is this 45 degrees to the water surface and 90 degrees to the longitudinal axis of the boat? Sounds like something I want to try as soon as it warms up here. --------- John: The paddle with float is kept at 45 degrees as much as possible to the surface of the water, while being submerged deep below it. You, of course, change angle with your boat in relationship to the shaft as you slowly rotate up, letting the paddlefloat's buoyancy provide the leverage to self-right you. You do need to be strong enough to hold the paddleshaft firmly. Some folks find it difficult. I find it easy, but find other methods that other paddlers find easy to be difficult, so things can really vary in this game. I just like to play around experimenting. It is a real confidence builder. You find a few rescues you really like, then try them in controlled, cold, rough water. You can spend a lot on rescue gear (like me), but it is a good policy to rely on as few as possible, but be able to use them in different manners. Well, sorry if I didn't make the original post clear enough. My brain and body hurt a bit from being back at work perhaps a bit too early after my recent surgery. I'll double-read my posts in future for clarity. Doug Lloyd (who's employer owns his mind -- while my wife owns my body, my government owns my money (it seems), my God owns my spirit, but the sea owns my soul. I, of course, just owe -- so its off to work I go. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Doug wrote: - >The paddle with float is kept at 45 degrees as much >as possible to the surface of the water, while being >submerged deep below it. Steve wrote: - >to help get the paddlefloat off easily is to open the >air valves on it and partially submerge the paddle blade G'Day, Doug, yesterday I tried to roll a Klepper Aerius without a float and failed at first because knee bracing was difficult. Then tried the reentry and roll following your suggestion to just hold the paddle with float below the water surface. It worked just as you described, somewhat slow, almost effortless and didn't require well positioned knees. The angle below the water didn't seem to matter too much. Later on learn't how to lock my knees in and Pawlata roll the Klepper without a float. It rolls easily, but the fixed float method is a very neat rescue! Steve, I also tried the method you described for getting the air out of the float by submerging it and was impressed by its potential for keeping the boat stable while removing the float. All rescues were in calm water All the best, Peter *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Peter, I wish I could take credit for that technique, but I can't. Wayne Horodowich of www.useakayk.org was the person who taught me that trick---but it sure works well. I have purchased his video on rescue and capsize recovery and if you are looking for a treasure house of tips, I highly recommend it. As usual, I have no financial interests or ties to Wayne---he's just someone I have paddled with and learned from--in other words, a friend. Steve Holtzman ----- Original Message ----- From: PeterO To: 'Doug Lloyd' ; 'Steven A. Holtzman' ; 'Paddlewise' Sent: March 10, 2002 12:39 PM Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Face Up Paddlefloat Rescue and more Steve, I also tried the method you described for getting the air out of the float by submerging it and was impressed by its potential for keeping the boat stable while removing the float. All rescues were in calm water All the best, Peter *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Steve, thanks for the link to that website...I will be ordering some videos from it this week. BTW - an 'a' was missing from it, so here it is for those that missed. http://www.useakayak.org/ Scott Simpson Anchorage Alaska "There is always one more thing you can do to influence any situation" Lt. Gen Harold Moore, USA (Ret) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steven A. Holtzman" <sh_at_actglobal.net> > > I wish I could take credit for that technique, but I can't. Wayne Horodowich > of www.useakayk.org was the person who taught me that trick---but it sure > works well. I have purchased his video on rescue and capsize recovery and if > you are looking for a treasure house of tips, I highly recommend it. As usual, > I have no financial interests or ties to Wayne---he's just someone I have > paddled with and learned from--in other words, a friend. > > Steve Holtzman *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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