Al -- This sounds like a great "tent test". Which models of Walrus and Northface were able to survive the waterspout? Of these, which did the best and what kind of shape was it in? Or were the reasons they survived more concerned with where they were placed and how well staked they were, etc -- as opposed to tent quality. The tents in your pictures all seemed to be pretty well flattened. Evan Dallas Woodinville, Washington >>>Date: Mon, 04 Mar 2002 12:03:56 -0500 From: Al Vazquez <alvazquez_at_kayakguide.com> Subject: [Paddlewise] Hit by a Waterspout in the Everglades!!! <snip> Out of over a dozen tents, only 3 remained useable; a Walrus, a North Face, and another small tent tied to a picnic table that was still dragged several feet. <snip> I found what was left of my tent in a heap nearby anchored by a large bag of food and utensils and the marine gas grill I'd left inside it. The fiberglass support rods had torn out of the sleeves and many sections had broken into splinters. Based on the damage to trees that fell, winds were estimated at over 120 mph.<<< *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
All the tents on our site were hit, so I do believe it was a fair side-by-side comparison test. My tent was a large Sears Hillary 4 person dome, and as you can see from the photo, it was trashed like many others. Based on how the fiberglass support rods ripped through their sleeves and shattered, it think the self supporting fabric dome must have been distorted until it tore and the rods broke. The survivor tents were the Walrus model Warp/2+2 Expedition, a very low, 2 person tent. I don't know the North Face model. Staking might also have helped because the one tent that was staked to the heavy picnic table was not a high-wind design and it survived. All three of the surviving tents, however, reported that the tent ceiling came down and squeezed them for several seconds, then popped back up intact. And my Pontiac Transport did quite well :-) If it hadn't been for my tentless comrades coming to knock on my door to alert me to what happened, I might have nodded off again in my cozy van ;-) -- Al Vazquez KayakGuide.com tm the Place to Share Kayaking & Canoeing tm *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> Al -- This sounds like a great "tent test". Which models of Walrus and > Northface were able to survive... C'mon guys...think a little here. ANY tent is going to be thrashed by wind if it is not properly staked out. You can have the most expensive, bombproof tent made for Everest, and if you don't know how to stake it out properly, it will flail in the wind with any other cheaply made tent. Albeit it will most likely not have as much damage in the seams, pole loops, etc.. I cannot leave out the point of quality here either. "You always get what you pay for". Let's face it, the only thing protecting you from the environment, when out adventuring, is your tent (at least where I live, 99% of the time a car is not handy to go sleep the storm off in). That being said, the better quality, storm/wind tested tents are spendy, so most opt for the coleman/sears '4-room with a kitchen and living room' tent, and then want to see it survive the elements. Sorta like taking a knife to a gun fight. The better quality tents are tested both in a lab setting and real-world setting. Sierra Designs, for instance, tests their tents up on top of Mt. Washington, with highest recorded wind speed on earth of 231 MPH. Most of these tents also have internal guy points, for extra support. The list goes on and on. My point in all this is simple; doesn't surprise me at all to see what the water spout did to these tents...don't look to a specific model of tent that survived. It may have survived simply because its' owner knew how to properly stake out a tent. Any of the higher quality tents (Sierra Designs, TNF, Mtn Hrdwr, Bibler, etc.) will all have like-quality design. I apologize in advance if I sound like I am stepping on any toes, as that is not my intention. Great pic's, BTW! Scott Simpson Anchorage Alaska "There is always one more thing you can do to influence any situation" Lt. Gen Harold Moore, USA (Ret) *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
--- sc <sc_at_gci.net> wrote: > I cannot leave out the point of quality here either. "You always get what > you pay for". Let's face it, the only thing protecting you from the > environment, when out adventuring, is your tent (at least where I live, I don't want to offend anyone either, and this is not supposed to address Scott Simpson personally. I've seen a lot of people go for expensive products, because there is a lot of blind faith in brand literature (marketing), and often the expense is driven (justified) by a desire to show off and compete with peers. I think there are a lot of excellent, cheap alternatives one should always consider. No one mentioned REI, Coleman, Kelty, or Eureka! (who makes tents for the military.) Maybe no one wanted to appear cheap in front of peers. For kayaking, I have never seen true objective and comprehensive kayak reviews online, outside of Sea Kayaker magazine. Sea Kayaker magazine has stability information, resistance information, true measured weight and dimensions. People say "This kayak is really fast" or "tracks really well" or "it's really tippy" in their reviews (on say paddling.net) but how does that help you make an informed decision? People who also review their own boat tend to say "This boat is 9.5 out of 10" even though they've only tried one or two boats! A lot of what influences kayak companies is often the demand of consumers, who I believe have mistaken perceptions (or no idea) about design. Sea Kayaker magazine only chooses to (or can?) review one or two boats an issue, when there are tens of new designs every year. You really need to collect all the issues of the magazine to make use of this information. There is no year-end buying guide. I don't know how anybody really chooses a boat, except by paddling it for a few minutes at a kayak convention, or borrowing one from a friend. There is a dearth of (useful) information. I hope I'm not stating the obvious. Maybe someone has an idea of how to react to kayak marketing and keeping the "consumer" informed. Try FREE Yahoo! Mail - the world's greatest free email! http://mail.yahoo.com/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Elias, Let's face it, buying a kayak is purely subjective. It may be a top rated boat by everyone else, but if you don't like the way it fits on you, then all the ratings combined won't convince you. You are right, it is difficult choosing the right kayak. And even when you go to a symposium and try out 10 or 15 different boats, your favorite there will feel much different after having spent a day or two paddling around in it. No offense taken on the email...but just FYI, I speak from having owned a Sears Hillary tent for about 9 years - I got much life out of it, but as I progressed in tenting areas, discovered that I was way beyond it's design capabilities. Sure, there are those that buy the latest greatest and have absolutely no idea what it's designed for; but the hard truth is good tents are not cheap. REI made tents are solid middle-ground tents, but are not made to withstand the rigors of a mountaineering tent, and lack the 'extras' of the mountaineering tents. (ie-triple stitched seams, do not have same waterproof treatment, etc.) If anyone is interested, the new teepee tents are fantastic. Several makes of those; they are very wind resistant, and boast lots of interior room. They are a single-wall, but have good ventilation for warm weather. "Things that make you go hmmmmmm....." Scott Simpson Anchorage Alaska "There is always one more thing you can do to influence any situation" Lt. Gen Harold Moore, USA (Ret) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Elias Ross" <op_elias_ross_at_yahoo.com> To: "sc" <sc_at_gci.net>; <paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net>; "Evan Dallas" <Evan_Dallas_at_notes.ntrs.com> Cc: <alvazquez_at_kayakguide.com> Sent: Thursday, March 07, 2002 3:10 PM Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Hit by a Waterspout in the Everglades!!! - Tent test > > --- sc <sc_at_gci.net> wrote: > > I cannot leave out the point of quality here either. "You always get what > > you pay for". Let's face it, the only thing protecting you from the > > environment, when out adventuring, is your tent (at least where I live, > > I don't want to offend anyone either, and this is not supposed to address > Scott Simpson personally. I've seen a lot of people go for expensive > products, because there is a lot of blind faith in brand literature > (marketing), and often the expense is driven (justified) by a desire to > show off and compete with peers. > > I think there are a lot of excellent, cheap alternatives one should always > consider. No one mentioned REI, Coleman, Kelty, or Eureka! (who makes > tents for the military.) Maybe no one wanted to appear cheap in front of > peers. > > For kayaking, I have never seen true objective and comprehensive kayak > reviews online, outside of Sea Kayaker magazine. Sea Kayaker magazine has > stability information, resistance information, true measured weight and > dimensions. People say "This kayak is really fast" or "tracks really well" > or "it's really tippy" in their reviews (on say paddling.net) but how does > that help you make an informed decision? People who also review their own > boat tend to say "This boat is 9.5 out of 10" even though they've only > tried one or two boats! A lot of what influences kayak companies is often > the demand of consumers, who I believe have mistaken perceptions (or no > idea) about design. > > Sea Kayaker magazine only chooses to (or can?) review one or two boats an > issue, when there are tens of new designs every year. You really need to > collect all the issues of the magazine to make use of this information. > There is no year-end buying guide. > > I don't know how anybody really chooses a boat, except by paddling it for a > few minutes at a kayak convention, or borrowing one from a friend. There > is a dearth of (useful) information. > > I hope I'm not stating the obvious. Maybe someone has an idea of how to > react to kayak marketing and keeping the "consumer" informed. > > > Try FREE Yahoo! Mail - the world's greatest free email! > http://mail.yahoo.com/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
From: "Elias Ross" <op_elias_ross_at_yahoo.com> > I think there are a lot of excellent, cheap alternatives one should always > consider. No one mentioned REI, Coleman, Kelty, or Eureka! (who makes > tents for the military.) Maybe no one wanted to appear cheap in front of > peers. I wouldn't call them cheap, but rather mid-priced. You are correct that some of the products from those companies are good. I didn't refer to any of them because the are not known for mountaineering-type tents, but rather for a broad range of tents. I'd have to mention specific models from those brands to make the same point. Cheap tents are those sold in department, hardware and sports stores (by sports stores, I mean the type that specialize in equipment for football, baseball, golf etc as opposed to the REI, EMS and outdoor specialty shops). Cheap tents make me cringe, with incomplete flies, poor waterproofing and details that are notable for their abscense. Some really good buys are from the REI, EMS and MEC type stores. I only know MEC well and they have tents made in conjunction with Moss as well as internally developed tents that rival the top companies. The prices are often as good or better than the high end competition. Like anything else, it pays to find out what you need, learn what's out there and shop around. Mike PS - Our stable includes TNF Exp 25, Eureka Timberline, Eureka Alpine Meadows, MEC Quail and once a $10 garage-sale Moss that Amie gave away (?!?!?). *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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