PeterQ wrote, when responding to Matt: "........Use an electric pump, or sometimes both electric and hand pumps.........." The only electric pump I have found is a self-contained, battery powered pump mfg. by Atwood which is rated at 200gallons /hour. Given the number of gallons of water that a capsized and then righted kayak can hold, that doesn't strike me as being very satisfactory. Peter, and everyone else........I'd sure like to hear about other, greater capacity, pumps that are available, and how they are powered. Ol' Dave bishopd_at_jps.net *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Dave, There is a discussion of electric pumps in the archives. It's a couple of years old, but there hasn't been much discussion of electric pumps since. Go to the link below for the discussion. http://www.paddlewise.net/topics/boatequip/elecpumps.html ---Has anyone got anything new? Bob V *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Dave wrote: - >Peter, and everyone else........I'd sure like to hear about >other, greater capacity, pumps that are available, and how >they are powered. G'Day Dave, The Rule 1100 and Rule 500 bilge pumps, which are mentioned in the Paddlewise thread Bob supplied, are available at yachting hardware shops in Oz and guess the same would be true in the USA. I've got a Rule 500 installed in a small cockpit boat and an Atwood tied down with velcro in a Klepper. Both are OK but the Klepper is so stable when flooded that if the Atwood is slower it doesn't seem to matter in a warm climate, don't know about cold water though. With the Klepper large flotation bags help greatly to reduce the amount of water that needs to be pumped. As Dana mentions in the old thread, finding a water proof switch for the Rule pumps can be a hassle. The yachting shops here advertise their switches as waterproof but they don't meet any formal waterproofing standards. Switches meeting such standards are available from "Radiospares" or "Farnell" who do mail order. I waterproofed a non standard switch using silicon rubber as Dana described, as well as painting vulnerable areas with several layers of liquid insulating tape. So far its fine and the boats spend a fair bit of time swamped with water. My Atwood is powered with alkaline cells and the Rule uses a lead acid gel battery. All the best, PeterO (Who has no connection with any of the companies mentioned) *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Electric pumps in a kayak are always a compromise between pump output and power consumption. I think the Rule 500 and similar models from other manufaturers are a good option, since they run on small bateries for quite a while. Larger ones, like the 1100 gal/h draw exponential more power from the batteries. My cockpit with me in it (water displacement) and as full with water as you can get in is pumped out in ~4 minutes with a 500 gal/h pump. And after reentering there is in most times less water in the boat than after filling it up with water to the underside of the coaming. I use Rule 500 pumps powered by Alcaline AA cells in line in my boats. The little AA hold up for ~40 min - 60 min of pumping. A single set lasts me for the seasons rescue practices, a second fresh set goes in for "real" trips. However, I carry a manual pump as backup. Batteries and switch are in a 500ml Nalgene wide mouth bottle. The switch is mounted trough the lid, the outside covered with a rubber membrane (i.e. piece of a rubber glove) glued down to the lid with aquaseal. Aquaseal also selas the little holes in the bottle were the 2 cables go through. However, after each trip I take my bottle out and open the lid to dry it out. Otherwise it doesn't take long and the bit of moisture collected by condensation corrodes the cheap contacts of my battery holder away. I tried to come up with a electronic switch, triggered by water closing the contact between 2 electrodes. It works, but I haven't built it in yet. (the circuit is a darlington 2 transistor circuit switching a relay for the pump power circuit). Reason for trying this system is that I find it no problem to start the pump before reentering the boat, but once the water is out the pump keeps running and you have to open the skirt and fiddle around to switch it off. Ulli _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
"Ulli Hoeger" <uhoeger_at_hotmail.com> wrote: > Larger ones, like the 1100 gal/h draw exponential more power from the > batteries. My cockpit with me in it (water displacement) and as full with > water as you can get in is pumped out in ~4 minutes with a 500 gal/h pump. > And after reentering there is in most times less water in the boat than > after filling it up with water to the underside of the coaming. I use the Rule 1100, but with an lead-acid cell (3,4 amper-hours) in my folding boats. A folding double holds a lot of water if swamped, even with a lot of gear and flotation inside. > I tried to come up with a electronic switch, triggered by water closing the > contact between 2 electrodes. It works, but I haven't built it in yet. (the I have built a watertight reed-switch, which is operated by a magnet through the deck (canvas or something else). It works also on fiberglass boats. No need to open the sprayskirt. I cant explain this very well, my English (especially technic terms) is not the best. I could send some pictures (not to the list of course). Rainer -- Rainer Schroeter, Marburg (Lahn), Germany *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Cole Hersey makes a switch that was marketed to the PWC users. It is a single pole single throw switch. The switch has a rocker switch enclosed in a rubber membrane with a toggle outside the membrane. I have had one on my boat for 2 seasons without failure. West Marine no longer stocks these switches. The Cole-Hersey part numbers are c1005-507 and c1006-502. I believe the part numbers are for different styles of external toggle According to the local West Marine store, Cole Hersey's phone number is: 973-887-9400. Another option to protect the switch is to put it in a small plastic food container and sealing the wire holes with 3m 5200 or Aquaseal. I now use a 2.2 AH lead acid gel cell battery and a 500 gph Rule pump in my primary boat. The pump draws less than 2 amps. I presume as a first approximation that the pump will operate for about an hour before the battery is drained. As a practical matter I have yet to drain a battery, whether on a trip or while practicing various boat swamping activities in a pool. The battery/pump combination is a trade off. The choice I saw was how fast do I need to have my boat pumped out. The 1100 clears the boat in about half the time that the 500 requires. The 1100 draws about twice the amps, too. A 2.2 AH battery has enough capacity for either pump. Again as a practical matter since it takes 2-5 minutes to pump out a boat with an electric pump a 60 minute battery will not be drained unless you are having an exceptionally bad day. Dana Dickson > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net > > Date: Fri, 08 Mar 2002 22:24:32 -0500 > From: Bob Volin <bobvolin_at_optonline.net> > Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Electric Pumps ?? > > Dave, > There is a discussion of electric pumps in the archives. > It's a couple of > years old, but there hasn't been much discussion of electric > pumps since. > Go to the link below for the discussion. > > http://www.paddlewise.net/topics/boatequip/elecpumps.html > > ---Has anyone got anything new? > > Bob V *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Hi ! If you have a cheap shaft-seal, water penetrates along the shaft, corrodes the motor and thats it. As this happens at a part of the pump which in most cases is difficult to maintain and check, this is a big risk for failure (I had this once). Doubling amps can mean that your battery pack cannot provide enough current. Normal PANASONIC NiCD 2,2Ah cells failed when currents of 4,5 A were needed in my tests. You need those high Amp cells usually sold for RC-cars of airplanes, i.e. "High-Amp" or "Red-Amp" from PANASONIC or similiar stuff, which are able to provide shortcut currents between 8 to 30A. When those are used and your pump requires 12V here is the next problem. If you charge/recharge those cells, each cell has a slightly different capacity which may result in HALF of the given Ahs after several load/reload cycles. On the pro side? My pump emptied the cockpit in 2min20 when full with fresh water, tested at my boathouse. But be warned: moving salt water in your cockpit is a complete different game, as when the pump is not fully submerged and runs partly dry it takes some time to recover to full output. This is the case when the boat is moved by waves during the pumping process. This can more than double the pumping time and so sucks down your battery power. Gerald Waterproof switches can be built with a rubber membrane (bycicle tube) covering a "foot"-push-switch usually mounted in electric guitar equipment, those are heavy duty. -- Gerald Maroske gum_at_exmail.de Wörthstr. 36 24116 Kiel Tel/Fax: 0431 /1 66 34 http://gum.exhome.de *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Now that the electric pumps thread is winding down I thought I'd start a discussion about foot pumps. I'm currently building a cedar strip boat (Jay Babina's Outer Island) and have thought about putting in a foot pump. Any suggestions on brands/models? *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 3/13/2002 9:02:04 AM Eastern Standard Time, jaf30_at_cornell.edu writes: > ... Any suggestions on brands/models? I'm very happy with the Boswell Guzzler. Boswell are located in Providence RI. If you can't find them in the book, let me know, I have their coordinates somewhere around here. Best regards, Ralph Ralph_at_PouchBoats.com www.PouchBoats.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
From: "Gerald Maroske" <gum_at_exmail.de> > Doubling amps can mean that your battery pack cannot provide enough > current. Normal PANASONIC NiCD 2,2Ah cells failed when currents of 4,5 A > were needed in my tests. [...] > > When those are used and your pump requires 12V here is the next problem. > If you charge/recharge those cells, each cell has a slightly different > capacity which may result in HALF of the given Ahs after several > load/reload cycles. When investigating sealed lead acid and AGM cells for use in a pump, I stumbled on this web page (it's a pdf document): http://www.stagewireless.com/PDFs/Battery_Selection_and_Maintenance_Guidebook.pdf It is intended for the theatre and music business, but the battery info seems good in general. It explains what Gerald has experienced - that batteries have a discharge rate limit (no more than twice the amp-hour rating) and rules on charging, discharging etc. Since I'm not an expert, I can't vouch for the accuracy, but it seems reasonable and is easy to understand. It made me realize I needed a bigger battery than I initially thought. Mike (Now if I could only find a local source for such batteries...) *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I looked at the referenced guidebook. I don't think there is an inconsistency between the experience of the many PW readers who use gel cell batteries and the guidebook. The guidebook is concerned about continuous discharge for a one hour period, pumping out a kayak is a 2.3 to 6 minute discharge with hopefully a long rest period until the next use. The exception to the long rest period I have experienced is when I am practicing rolling, bracing and rescues. To date I have not had a battery fail due to excessive rate of discharge. I don't doubt that my 2.2 AH battery will fail eventually and that it will fail sooner that it would if the discharge were at a lower rate. Again there is a trade off here. Larger batteries are heavier, bulkier and initially more expensive. FWIW, and although I don't recommend it, I also tried a 1.2 AH battery with a 3 amp draw. The trial was during a practice session so the battery got a workout. The battery did not fail. If it had failed I would have used my backup manual pump. Dana Dickson > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net > > Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2002 12:39:05 -0500 > From: "Michael Daly" <michaeldaly_at_rogers.com> > Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Electric Pumps ?? > > From: "Gerald Maroske" <gum_at_exmail.de> > > > Doubling amps can mean that your battery pack cannot > provide enough > > current. Normal PANASONIC NiCD 2,2Ah cells failed when > currents of 4,5 A > > were needed in my tests. [...] > > > > When those are used and your pump requires 12V here is the > next problem. > > If you charge/recharge those cells, each cell has a > slightly different > > capacity which may result in HALF of the given Ahs after several > > load/reload cycles. > > When investigating sealed lead acid and AGM cells for use in > a pump, I > stumbled on this web page (it's a pdf document): > > http://www.stagewireless.com/PDFs/Battery_Selection_and_Maint > enance_Guidebook.pdf > > It is intended for the theatre and music business, but the > battery info seems > good in general. It explains what Gerald has experienced - > that batteries > have a discharge rate limit (no more than twice the amp-hour > rating) and > rules on charging, discharging etc. Since I'm not an > expert, I can't vouch > for the accuracy, but it seems reasonable and is easy to > understand. It > made me realize I needed a bigger battery than I initially thought. > > Mike > (Now if I could only find a local source for such batteries...) > *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
From: "Dickson, Dana A." <dana.dickson_at_unisys.com> > FWIW, and although I don't recommend it, I also tried a 1.2 AH battery with > a 3 amp draw. The trial was during a practice session so the battery got a > workout. The battery did not fail. If it had failed I would have used my > backup manual pump. If I understand the situation correctly, the failure of the battery would be in terms of reducing the number of cycles available in its life. When a battery is ideally cycled (discharged & recharged) it should last for hundreds or even over a thousand cycles. Serious repeated discharges at too high a rate can reduce that to a couple of hundred cycles. This failure results in it only producing (IIRC) about 60% or less of the original capacity. Given the cost and pollution potential of these batteries, extending their life is a good idea. I've been studying lots about rechargable batteries lately and found that there are sites (search on Yuasa or Panasonic or just gel cell etc) that have even better documents than the one I posted a reference to. Today I picked up a 5 Ahr, 12V Yuasa battery (used) for $5 at a surplus store. I'll be experimenting with it. At 2 kg (4.4 lb) it's a brick, but I hope to find out if it is useful as a general purpose power source on trips and not just for the pump. For example, I can use it to recharge other batteries (i.e. AA types, or the battery in a VHF) or allow me decadent evenings with a cd player on a long trip. As long as I reserve enough for the pump, I should be ok. I've also done some homework on pumps. I found that the Attwood 625 submersible draws significantly less power than any Rule pump. The Rule 500 draws 1.9A and the Attwood only 1A, yet it clears the water over 40% faster. It remains to be seen whether the claims of the manufacturer are realistic. Anyone have anything bad or more realistic to say about the Attwood before I spend? Mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Mike, I use an Atwood submersible and find it clears the water at the same rate or slightly slower than how I clear a cockpit with a handpump. It's easier, though. Mine uses 3 each D Cells and they last a long time. The Atwood is light and can be used in conjunction with the handpump if you think you really need to, but I don't. The on/off switch is located on the pump and is not as accessible as I'd like it to be. I have to reach behind me in the cockpit to switch it on or off. However, I do that before I reenter and don't worry about switching off until I'm good and ready. The only issue with electric or foot pumps that needs a bit of discussing is that every minute or so, the suction created by the neoprene skirt and the pump has to be alleviated by reintroducing air into the cockpit. If not, the rate of outflow slows considerably. No biggie, just carefully lift the side of the skirt for a second. Certain sea states might preclude that however, and one may have to deal with reduced outflow until positive stability is found. Just a thought-Rob Gibbert *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
From: <Rcgibbert_at_aol.com> > Mike, I use an Atwood submersible and find it clears the water at the same > rate or slightly slower than how I clear a cockpit with a handpump. Not surprising, but I don't expect it to be fast - just easier and hands free. > The on/off switch is located on the pump and is not as accessible as I'd like > it to be. I have to reach behind me in the cockpit to switch it on or off. I'd probably leave it on and add a second switch between the battery and the pump. BTW, for those that are interested, I found this reference to a set of tests of various pumps, some in the size range for kayaks: http://www.powerboat-reports.com/sample/bilge.html They found the Attwood to be as good or better than the manufacturer's claims and the Attwood 500 (good size for a kayak, though I'd get the 625 [untested]) came in second overall. They slammed Attwood for not using tinned wire and didn't recommend them. I personally would discount their claim that tinning is critical. Mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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