Well, FWIW, here are a few thoughts that come to mind, for better or worse... First, rule out the obvious aspect that "accidents", by nature, can happen to the smartest, most prepared paddler. So, we're really dealing with people who fall into one of several categories, such as "smart but unaware", "dumb and unaware", "smart and aware but uncaring", "aware but dumb and inept", etc etc. How do you incent such a diversity of people? I guess you try to find the common denominator, which might be the almighty dollar (or Euro, or whatever). Hit them in the pocketbook and the unaware may take the time and expend the effort to become aware, the uncaring may become caring..... Maybe it's a pipe dream, but read on. The trick is using money to incent the paddler without getting the government involved, and not running up the price of kayaking with a bunch of add-on costs. But, what if paddlers were only charged more for ignoring safety (or at least the awareness of safety issues)? For instance, suppose the retailers and manufacturers offered an industry sanctioned, organized, and administered safety course. The course is free. When you pass, you get a certificate or something. The retailers increase the price of EVERYTHING in the store by 1%. When you buy from them and show them your wallet size certificate (or put your certificate number on file in your outfitters customer account file) you are given a 1% "safety discount". Those who never took the course are not given the discount, would pay 1% more than the rest of us, and thereby fund the program - no cost to the manufacturers, retailers or to you and I who are safety aware. So, would the unaware, care? Well, if I'm buying a $2800 boat, the 1% is significant. If I'm buying a $5 whistle, it isn't.... until I buy a whistle, pump, flares, dye, signal mirror, etc etc. Pennies begin to add up to big bucks. Once a paddler realizes that taking the safety course can save them some significant dollars, and the course itself is free, maybe they'll take the course. Specifics would have to be worked out, like rebating the 1% on the price of a boat if a new paddler takes the course within 3 months of the purchase date, etc. It's more work for the retailers but it's self funded and a safe industry is a growth industry. How many sales have been lost at the last minute when a kayaking death hits the local news or papers and the buyer decides to pursue something else? Beats me, but surely it's kept some folks from entering the sport and spending their money on it. I dunno.... maybe it's a stupid idea or just unimplementable. But, it keeps the government out of it, it's self contained within the industry and the sport, demonstrates good-will and an emphasis on safety by the retailers and the entire industry, it rewards people for safety awareness, is self funding, and money is the universal "attention getter". The course itself wouldn't do much for people like P'Wisers (except when we were new P'Wises). But, for other paddlers who we often read about in the papers, the "discount" may be incentive enough for them to sit through a lecture on safety issues which may create the awareness and end up saving their lives. Just thoughts. Feel free to blow holes in it. Rick - Poquoson, VA *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Rick.Sylvia_at_ferguson.com wrote: >Well, FWIW, here are a few thoughts that come to mind, for better or worse... > >The trick is using money to innocent the paddler without getting the government involved, and not running up the price of kayaking with a bunch of add-on costs. But, what if paddlers were only charged more for ignoring safety (or at least the awareness of safety issues)? > >For instance, suppose the retailers and manufacturers offered an industry sanctioned, organized, and administered safety course. The course is free. When you pass, you get a certificate or something. > >The retailers increase the price of EVERYTHING in the store by 1%. When you buy from them and show them your wallet size certificate (or put your certificate number on file in your outfitters customer account file) you are given a 1% "safety discount". Those who never took the course are not given the discount, would pay 1% more than the rest of us, and thereby fund the program - no cost to the manufacturers, retailers or to you and I who are safety aware. > >So, would the unaware, care? Well, if I'm buying a $2800 boat, the 1% is significant. If I'm buying a $5 whistle, it isn't.... until I buy a whistle, pump, flares, dye, signal mirror, etc etc. Pennies begin to add up to big bucks. Once a paddler realizes that taking the safety course can save them some significant dollars, and the course itself is free, maybe they'll take the course. > > Hi Rick. This might work, but the 1 percent would be a bit low. Since most of the people we truly need to reach are in the recreational market they aren't going for the $2800 boat. If I am buying a $500 dollar boat with say $100 in accessories ($75 for a "good" paddle and $25 for a cheap PFD because the Coast Guard says I HAVE to have one) the "penalty" is only $6. Would I feel that $6 is worth the time and effort of attending a safety course? Probably not. (Personally, I took the Power Squadron safety course as soon as I started boating, but that is me.) If you increase the rate to 5 or 10 percent then you are making an impact. For a $30 savings I would be more interested. The next problem would be getting all of the mass merchandisers on line with the program. The dedicated shops for the most part are already preaching safety to any who will listen. The only way I can see the *Marts of the world getting in on this is if the manufacturers offer an "instant rebate" on all purchases by a person who has passed the course. Mass merchandisers really don't want the extra bother. If we could get the manufacturers (who already have their own group, so they could be talked to as one group rather than individually) to add the "fee" on before the retailer gets the product and then donate all non rebated proceeds to the safety organization we are talking about creating here (minus a fee for the manufacturers trouble in keeping track) it might work. The final problem would be in setting up the teaching organization in the first place. This might well be handled by the ACA, BCU, or The Canadian equivalent (sorry, I forgot the name!) in their home countries. After all, these organizations already teach safety to all who want to attend. This way the attendance fees would be paid by "the system" rather than the individual. This would also result in these organizations having more money to pursue safety education. The idea isn't full of holes, but it wouldn't be an easy task. Mike Noyes Chester, NH http://gsinet.net/~mnoyes/ -- Paddling along through fog so thick that only one's thoughts are visible, your reverie is abruptly shattered by the ancient cry of a great blue heron as she lifts uncertainly from the brilliant blue of a mussel-shell beach witnessed only by the brooding, wet spruce....your passage home seems as much back through time as it does through space. Mark H Hunt *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
----- Original Message ----- From: <Rick.Sylvia_at_ferguson.com> > The retailers increase the price of EVERYTHING in the store by 1%. When you buy from them and show them your wallet size certificate (or put your certificate number on file in your outfitters customer account file) you are given a 1% "safety discount". Those who never took the course are not given the discount, would pay 1% more than the rest of us, and thereby fund the program - no cost to the manufacturers, retailers or to you and I who are safety aware. I'm back to Swiss alpine club thinking; pay a yearly fee to the club of around USD60 and you get not 1 but, 10% off equipment in the specialised stores. Add to that the FREE courses run by the Swiss alpine club for beginners and the idea becomes interesting. Even if people join just to get ten per cent off the kayak they buy, their curiosity may push them to take the courses (hell it's free, why not?). Kevin. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Sections of snips from Scott, with my comments; > Nature can be sad and cruel. Personally, I see incidents like the > uninitiated getting in over their heads (literally) in a > kayak as natures way > of culling the weak and stupid among us. Some accidents happen to people who are "weak and stupid". Other accidents happen to "strong and smart", but who haven't properly been exposed, or exposed themesleves, to the realities of paddling. That doesn't make them stupid, it makes them newbies. Didn't we all start out as newbies? As a general rule, I see it as good, honest, well meaning people who lack an awareness of safety issues pertaining to kayaking. Which, is not to say that some people don't just go out and do stupid stuff. That certainly happens. Clearly, some things that people do are flat out stupid, but I'm mostly referring to legitimate "accidents" not the darwin contestants. Sure, try to educate > the ones that > are willing to listen. Yep, that's the target audience. But there will always be those, in > every sport and > activity, that will resist being educated, and may end up > paying the price > for it. Yep, a sad fact of life. The bigger problem, as I see it, is how do we hold > onto our own > freedoms while the do gooders of society are trying to > protect us from > ourselves? That's why I like a voluntary system with incentive. You've got the freedom to accept or decline the istruction. But, even though I suggested a possible scenairo in a previous post, I'll tell you that it has flaws, and it would take a helluva lot of politicing and work to pull it off, so I don't see it or any of the recent alternatives taking place. In the end, it's up to individual paddlers to "do the right thing", and I'd like to think that the entire padlding community would help the individual paddlers understand what the "right things" are, by example, by word of mouth, by written and visual resources, and by lots of training and learning opportunities. That's one of the great benefits of Paddlewise. I can't begin to quantify the volume of knowledge I've learned from this site (can anyone help me with grammer now?). Rick *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Snipped all but 5 words from Mikes response to my post. > The final problem would be Mike, your issues are valid, but lets not be too hasty to say "final problem" :-) Here's another problem that came to mind after I hit the "send" button. Would the visible and financial attention to safety send the public a message that this sport is "too" dangerous. Sure, it's dangerous, as is crossing the street and so forth. But would the people we help be larger than the people we turn off by the over-emphasis on safety? I suppose it sounds strange to be discussing "over emphasizing" safety, but I think it's a fact that you could over do it and give the people the impression that it's a risk not worth taking. Where's that fine line!?!?!?!?!? Rick *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
DHMO, for some it is dangerous, but I drink it straight up and undiluted. I like the uncut pure white powder form of it too (but not up my nose). Often things will take care of themselves if you don't inject a lot of rules and regulations into the mix that mess up the natural ecosystems balance. Accidents happen and sometimes people die for whatever the reasons. The news media does its job and reports the tragedy because, more than anything else, people want to be informed about what is causing other people to die. The public is therefore warned of the dangers, in our case that "kayaking (or DHMO) can kill you". The members of the public who hear the sad news will consider that fact. Some will stay well away from significant quantities of DHMO altogether, some will never ever get into any boat. Some will endeavor to learn about the hazards and try to operate their watercraft a safe and prudent manner. Some will flirt with danger because that is when they really feel fully alive. Some will forget or ignore all the warnings they got. Some from each category (but not in equal proportions) will die and serve as another warning of the dangers involved in kayaking for those still living. What better education could there be? I don't see the need for any regulations here at all. Very few kayakers are a danger to anyone other than themselves so let them alone. Sure, a business that rents kayaks might want to limit its liability by offering courses and then requiring graduating from it (or a comparable course) before renting kayaks to that potential customer. However, in reality that company may have just increased its liability because their course may be seen (by the jury) to have been deficient in not covering the very event that resulted in the tragedy. That business may have saved dozens of lives by offering that course but if it gave the victim a false confidence, and had certified the victim as competent, then they may have opened themselves up to some of the liability even if the certified paddler did something really stupid. I can see no justification here for getting fitted with a one-size-fits-all government straight-jacket of rules and regulations. I'm actually quite appalled by all the complicated bureaucratic solutions that have been proposed by this group. Is it so bad if someone saves their life by not ever going kayaking. It might hurt the pocketbook of those in the paddling business some, but I say, "that is one less person camped next door to me screaming bloody murder or hunting raccoons all night". Another business might want to offer classes to help reassure the timid that kayaking can be safe if practiced in a sane manner. They will probably also increase their kayak sales that way. This will all come about quite naturally, just as it has so far. I personally think there are some demographic populations that should probably stay away from sea kayaking. The relatively high price of entry has kept one of these groups pretty much at bay so far. I'm talking about those under age 30. Since this is precisely the group that is most likely to lack the judgment to not kill themselves on the water (or in a car, bike, ski slope, etc) it seems that maybe the high up front cost of sea kayaking has already been protecting them from themselves. The cheaper cost of Rec. kayaking combined with the promotion that sea kayaking is getting in TV advertising these days (possibly also combined with the lack of expertise in the big box sporting goods stores often selling Rec. kayaks) may well seduce some more folks into using their new rec kayak inappropriately (and become further examples helping to warn those people who should never become sea kayakers that they have made the right choice in avoiding this dangerous sport). I think of this whenever I hear of some new program started by some do-gooder zealous promoter of sea kayaking to teach the sport to inner city youth. "Yes kids, kayaking can be addictive. No, you can't afford it. Here, your first taste is on me at no charge". Alv Elvestad Pakboats wrote: >>>>>>>>I think all recreational boats sold should be required to have enough built-in flotation to keep boat and occupants afloat and placed to keep the boat upright and stable after a capsize. I know that my suggestion would add a level of regulation that we do not like very much, but such rules are in place and seem to work well for other craft. Why should paddle craft be exempt? <<<<<<<< The Coast Guard's level flotation requirements (that canoes and kayaks are currently exempt from) specify enough fixed solid flotation material (like foam----inflatable bladders and even bulkheads won't pass muster) to allow a swamped boat to remain level and to float the number of people listed as the boats required capacity label. I hate to tell you this Alv, but you would have real trouble referring to them as "Pakboats" any longer under the level flotation rules you want to saddle us all with. Sea kayakers would have liked to use the space taken up by this solid fixed flotation to store gear in order to go camping. It will take way more foam than you might think to float you and your now 80 pound kayak. Of course, you need the kayak to also float level side to side, when fully swamped and with a paddler aboard (as the requirement we are seeking to comply with specifies). In that case the foam would have to be placed around the perimeter and a single kayak and would probably have to be 30" or more wide to also float level with the paddler aboard. At least that way you might get much of the storage room in the middle of the kayak back to use for gear. A salesman at REI once informed me that the Walden kayak I was looking at didn't need any extra flotation bags because it already had flotation built into the bow and stern. Sure enough, on closer inspection a little block of foam was fixed in each end of it, so the kayak was unlikely to completely sink. A little flotation like that in a kayak may well prove to be worse than no flotation at all if it leads to assumptions like the salesman made and then passed on to me that more flotation wasn't needed. Sp*ns*n man, .....maybe we could fill your air bladders with two part urethane foam and then affix them permanently to the side of our hulls to convert our now out of compliance kayaks to the new U.S. Coast Guard level flotation regulations proposed here. Or we could go whole hog...............Announcing "The War on Kayaking". Yes its another war folks, maybe we can nip this kayaking thing in the bud before there gets to be too many of them kayakers out there endangering themselves (and our younguns with their bad example) and making us have to risk ourselves to go looking for their bodies. "Kayaking is a privilege not a right", and "When kayaks are outlawed only outlaws will kayak" bumper stickers will appear. Hell why not, we've already so easily given up our right to eat whatever we want (with the drug laws) and the new "War on Terror" should help us shed a whole slew of irresponsible old former "rights". I don't wanna die sir. Just do anything you gotta to do to keep me safe massa. Matt Broze http://www.marinerkayaks.com/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Matt, I have never heard this said better. Thank you (while hoisting a glass of DHMO in a toast). Steve Holtzman *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
NOW you're teetering on that slippery slope.... > .........I like the uncut pure white powder form of it too (but not up my nose). *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
"DHMO, for some it is dangerous, but I drink it straight up and undiluted. I like the uncut pure white powder form of it too (but not up my nose)." <snip> I'm not sure how responsible it is to propagate advice like this over the internet. Unsupervised and unlicensed use of DHMO has led to many unfortunate incidents and will continue to do so, especially if young people learn to associate it with "cool" activities. TFJ ------------------------------------------ The information contained in this e-mail message may be privileged, confidential, and protected from disclosure. If you are not the intended recipient, any further disclosure or use, dissemination, distribution, or copying of this message or any attachment is strictly prohibited. If you think that you have received this e-mail message in error, please delete it and notify the sender. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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