<<The real issue here is the sequence of decisions and judgements these individuals made to get on the water in obviously (to regular paddlers) challenging conditions. Would their situation have changed in more sea worthy craft? It seems unlikely. The real issue in this situation is NOT flotation but judgement and skill. Michael Pardy>> We may be talking about somewhat different issues. The accident we have been discussing already happened, and the person who died will stay dead. I am more interested in finding a practical way to give the next potential victim a better chance to survive his inexperience and become a kayaker. Unfortunately, many new owners of recreational kayaks will not be educated about kayak safety and many of them will not be wearing their PFDs when they capsize. The one thing we can be sure will be there when they capsize is the boat. If the boat has enough flotation built in to keep the person afloat it could buy him time enough to be rescued. The boats that are sold now will not sink, but they also will not keep anybody afloat. I know I am proposing to save somebody from his own stupidity, but is that really such a bad idea? Alv Elvestad *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Steve Holtzman wrote: > > Since it would be very difficult for "law enforcement" to know whether a > boat was a "rec" boat or a serious kayak why don't we also legislate and > require the use of: > 1. Hand held flares > 3. Parachute flares > 4. VHF for all trips longer than 1 mile > 6. Signal mirror > 7. Compass, chart of the area > 8. Spare paddle > 10. Bilge pump > 11. Tow rope (must be minimum 45' long made of floating line with a breaking > 13. PFD (worn not carried) > 14. Skirt > 16. Whistle (stripped the list just a little) Now add: A hard-shell boat of at least 4 meters long, 50 cm wide, Toggles, floatation, flashlight, lumo sticks, spare paddle, red flag, wetsuit, permit for each trip of 24 hours at most, and groups of at least 3 kayaks. That's the list that Kevin sent me, on a back-channel request for the requirements on the French sea, where I plan to paddle this spring. Oh man! How do I stuff two other kayakkers complete with kayaks in my front hatch? Luckily these regulations are for the ocean. The mediterranian, where I plan to paddle, is hopefully less strict. Otherwise, I'll just take the floatation out of my boat and act as a submarine whenever the coastguard passes by. I always thought the Americans were security-obsessed, but it seems that at least one French politian has a serious phobia of water. "Excuse me, is it safe to use the bathroom without a PFD?" Sorry, had to get this off my chest. Niels. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
About the use of PFD's and helmets: Personally, I wear my kayak helmet in the house and in the street, to be safe from falling objects or low clearings in doors. As soon as I hit the open water in my kayak, I take the helmet off: Open water is the least likely place to hit something with your head. Same with a PFD: I always wear it in the car, for the risk of loosing control and ending up in the water. A car will sink, so the PFD will keep me on the surface. When I enter my kayak, I take the PFD off: The kayak will float anyway, so I can always cling to my boat. After the story of the flares in a bathtub (I have never seen it, but that's no reason not to refer to it) I refuse to take flares: Too dangerous. Floatation in your boat is extremely dangerous when entering sea caves (you might be crushed against the roof) so I always paddle with my hatches wide open. VHF radios, or any other electric equipment, might produce sparks while paddling through oil or gasoline, so leave them at home folks. Stay safe! My point? 1) Safety is something that is very hard to cover in rules: It takes intelligence and knowledge to apply the right equipment at the right time. 2) (a very liberal dutch point of view) I think every person should have the right to take risks and die in any way he wants. He may have a responsibility to his wife and children, maybe even to his paddling companions, but not to society. 3) Safety equipment is expensive and a bother. I think everyone should have the right to define his own balance between joy and safety. Every form of pleasure, every form of life, has its own risk. Let people decide for themselves how much risk they are willing to take for their pleasure. Educate them (if they want to be educated, even ignorance is a human right), so they can make a rational choice, but leave the choice to themselves. Niels (who is spending a fortune on safety equipment these days) *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
This thread is starting to go off in a totally different direction. The original thread started with requiring manufacturers and retailers to be the ones responsible for insuring the safety of the paddler rather than requiring the paddler to be responsible for his/her own actions. The original list of things to legislate that I posted was tongue in cheek. All of the safety gear on that list is carried and used by both me and the people I usually paddle with. However, because of how quick to sue people in the US (especially CA) are, when we invite others on our paddles, there is always a disclaimer that we are not leading a trip, everyone is responsible for their own equipment and safety, each paddler is responsible for determining if their skill levels are suitable for the planned trip, etc. I firmly believe in safety gear (and am considered a gear head by some), but I don't believe I should be legislated into it's use. If I were to capsize in my boat, it is not because Current Designs made tippy boats, it's because my skills at the moment of capsize were not up to the conditions. Maybe I wasn't paying attention, maybe I shouldn't have been out that day---but the responsibility for my safety is mine!!! If my paddling companions can help great, but that doesn't imply that anyone else is responsible for my safety or well being. Do I wear a PFD every time I paddle---ABSOLUTELY. But I CHOOSE to wear it. Does that mean I can tell someone else they HAVE to--no. But I will certainly tell them that I would feel better if they were and that I would not want to jeopardize my own safety to help them if they don't want take some simple precautions to help themselves. I'd hate to see the French rules for sea kayaking implemented here. Don't spoil the sport for the rest of us, to protect a few from their own stupidity. Let's all put our efforts into helping to educate the ones who are willing to learn rather than trying to legislate them into safety. The law in CA says that a jet skier has to wear a PFD and must be 16 years old or older. Has that made them more considerate of others?---I don't think so. Steve Holtzman ----- Original Message ----- From: "ralph diaz" <rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com> To: <KiAyker_at_aol.com>; <PaddleWise_at_paddlewise.net> Sent: April 19, 2002 7:21 AM Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Safety in Recreational Kayaks > ----- Original Message ----- > From: <KiAyker_at_aol.com> > > > > > 13. PFD (worn not carried) > > > ---------------------------------------- > > > Yes, why not? > > *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 07:54 19/04/2002 -0700, Steve Holtzman wrote: >I firmly believe in safety gear .... >but >I don't believe I should be legislated into it's use. If I were to capsize >in my boat, it is not because Current Designs made tippy boats, it's >because my skills at the moment of capsize were not up to the conditions. >....but the responsibility for my safety is mine!!! I > ><snip> > >I'd hate to see the French rules for sea kayaking implemented here. Don't >spoil the sport for the rest of us, to protect a few from their own >stupidity. Let's all put our efforts into helping to educate the ones who >are willing to learn rather than trying to legislate them into safety. ><snip> yes, yes, yes, yes. Newsflash: paddlewiser Steve Holtzman hits nail right on head. The greatest protection we all need is against the "nanny state". The desire to protect the vulnerable is laudable and fine; the obsession with protecting us all against living our lives is sinister. Kayaking, after all, is about balance. Nick *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
----- Original Message ----- From: "Niels Blaauw" <niels.blaauw_at_wanadoo.nl> > I think you should be clear on your reasons, because you will be asked > for them. If I force someone to wear a PFD (and I do!) he will ask > "Why?". My answer is: "You will ruin my day if you drown, so if you want > to drown, do it somewhere else." Many years ago, I wrote a white paper on the subject of wearing PFDs for a local club in which a board of directors battle was going over mandating wearing a PFD on club trips. The white paper was pro the requirement. I interviewed a number of people outside NYC on this including Charlie Walbridge, the Whitewater Safety guy who was speaking, I believe, on behalf of the Philadelphia Canoe Club. He said something like "I make 'em wear them in case the x*&% -ards have lied about their skills; at least I know their sorry asses will float!" ralph *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
----- Original Message ----- From: "Niels Blaauw" <niels.blaauw_at_wanadoo.nl> > > Reminds me of a situation at our club, some years ago. Some new members > asked if they could paddle a club-trip naked. Our chairman never missed > a beat and replied: "Sure, as long as you wear your PFD and sprayskirt". > The issue never came up again. There is a local paddling club (based in New Jersey) called the Paddling Bares. Quite active. They generally have a club booth at Jeresy Paddler Paddlesport shows rquipped with poster board photo displays. You can't miss their booth...just follow the crowd. I think they mostly do canoeing on NJ back waters such as the Pine Barrens. Canoeists, as you know, tend not to wear PFDs as much as do kayakers. ralph diaz *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Niels Blaauw wrote: > > Personally, I wear my kayak helmet in the house and in the street, to be > safe from falling objects or low clearings in doors. As soon as I hit > the open water in my kayak, I take the helmet off: Open water is the > least likely place to hit something with your head. Tell that to the knot on my head I got yesterday from whacking my skull with a paddle during Ray Killen's Greenland roll class. -- Steve *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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