As I said in a previous post on the topic of paddles, I may or may not have been pulling your leg on the direction of lift. If you looked as the diagram of the Greenland-style paddle in a canted stroke as seen on Sea Kayaker's web site, is isn't easy to determine the direction of lift, especially during the first part of the stroke where the paddle is shown going down. I created a couple of crude diagrams to show what's happening (more or less - these diagrams aren't super accurate) http://members.rogers.com/michaeldaly2/GPFlow.htm If the paddle is assumed to just drop down (or with a trivial amount of aft motion from the paddler), the lift generated will be aftward and upward. The aft component of the lift appears to be working against you. However, this isn't how the paddle is used. The paddler will actively pull the paddle aft - resulting in the same paddle orientation but with the flow changed. Now the lift is down and forward (diagram 2) - giving the paddler something to work against and move the kayak forward. Mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 6:57 PM -0400 7/30/02, Michael Daly wrote: >As I said in a previous post on the topic of paddles, I may or may not >have been pulling your leg on the direction of lift. If you looked >as the diagram of the Greenland-style paddle in a canted stroke as >seen on Sea Kayaker's web site, is isn't easy to determine the direction >of lift, especially during the first part of the stroke where the paddle >is shown going down. > >I created a couple of crude diagrams to show what's happening (more or >less - these diagrams aren't super accurate) > >http://members.rogers.com/michaeldaly2/GPFlow.htm > >If the paddle is assumed to just drop down (or with a trivial amount >of aft motion from the paddler), the lift generated will be aftward >and upward. The aft component of the lift appears to be working against >you. > >However, this isn't how the paddle is used. The paddler will actively >pull the paddle aft - resulting in the same paddle orientation but with >the flow changed. Now the lift is down and forward (diagram 2) - giving >the paddler something to work against and move the kayak forward. > When I have tried the canted stroke with a GP the blade slices into the water quickly producing little resistance or force. I think that if you have canted the blade enough to produce the flow shown in your diagram you will have over canted it. Nick -- Nick Schade Guillemot Kayaks 824 Thompson St Glastonbury, CT 06033 (860) 659-8847 *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
From: "Nick Schade" <schade_at_guillemot-kayaks.com> > When I have tried the canted stroke with a GP the blade slices into > the water quickly producing little resistance or force. I think that > if you have canted the blade enough to produce the flow shown in your > diagram you will have over canted it. In "Rolling with Maligiaq", he shows aapproximately a forty degree angle on the blade. That's roughly the angle I've been using all year and have no problem. You have to apply the pull to the paddle pretty much straight aft and let the paddle find its way. I find this technique allows me to control the angle of the paddle as well, from a low stroke to a high (nearly vertical) stroke. It seems to be the most comfortable way to paddle for me. Mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 7/31/2002 11:25:13 AM Eastern Standard Time, michaeldaly_at_rogers.com writes: > In "Rolling with Maligiaq", he shows approximately a forty degree angle on > the blade. That's roughly the angle I've been using all year and have no > problem. You have to apply the pull to the paddle pretty much straight aft > and let the paddle find its way. I find this technique allows me to > control the angle of the paddle as well, from a low stroke to a high > (nearly vertical) stroke. It seems to be the most comfortable way to > paddle for me. It is possible, with the blade canted forward as described, to let the blade slice into the water, building aft-ward force on the shaft until this force it reaches a brief maximum when the blade is fully immersed, and then to slice the blade back out (at approximately the same cant angle!) with decreasing aft-ward and have a positive angle of attack during all three (unequal!) phases of this (half-) stroke despite the switch in leading edge. I'll leave the discovery of details of the movements of the various parts of the paddler's body to achieve this blade path to the individual (a description would end up as a long narrative, boring for those not interested in the subject, while a little trial and error will quickly show a workable technique to those who are interested). Is this a useful stroke? Works for me as part of my general repertoire. I'd love to hear from others experimenting along these lines. Is the angle of attack as small as I think I observe? Only tank testing with John Winters will tell ... sometime out there in the dim distant future, perhaps. Best regards, Ralph Ralph_at_PouchBoats.com www.PouchBoats.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
From: <FoldingBoats_at_aol.com> > In a message dated 7/31/2002 11:25:13 AM Eastern Standard Time, > michaeldaly_at_rogers.com writes: > > > In "Rolling with Maligiaq", he shows approximately a forty degree angle on > > the blade. That's roughly the angle I've been using all year and have no > > problem. You have to apply the pull to the paddle pretty much straight aft > > and let the paddle find its way. I find this technique allows me to > > control the angle of the paddle as well, from a low stroke to a high > > (nearly vertical) stroke. It seems to be the most comfortable way to > > paddle for me. > > It is possible, with the blade canted forward as described, to let the blade > slice into the water, building aft-ward force on the shaft until this force > it reaches a brief maximum when the blade is fully immersed, and then to > slice the blade back out (at approximately the same cant angle!) with > decreasing aft-ward and have a positive angle of attack during all three > (unequal!) phases of this (half-) stroke despite the switch in leading edge. This was well described in a post on the Qajaq USA forum. However, I still haven't noticed much force on the last phase of the stroke. Maybe for racing, but I don't bother with that most of the time. > Is the angle of attack as small as I think I observe? I'm only guessing as to the angle of attack on the diagrams. It might be higher. As far as observing from the kayak - since water is transparent, I don't rely on anything I think I see. As far as tank testing goes, I've been thinking of a way to do this. When I did my engineering degree, we were required to do a research and/or development project in the final year (one or two terms depending on the student). If there's a university prof with a budget and a couple of undergrads needing a fluid mechanics project, this might be one way to get it done. I was going to approach a couple of local universities, but recent changes in my life make that look impossible for the coming year. We'll see. Mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> From: FoldingBoats_at_aol.com ... > michaeldaly_at_rogers.com writes: > >> In "Rolling with Maligiaq", he shows approximately a forty degree angle on >> the blade. That's roughly the angle I've been using all year and have no >> problem... > > It is possible, with the blade canted forward as described, to let the blade > slice into the water, building aft-ward force on the shaft until this force > it reaches a brief maximum when the blade is fully immersed, and then to > slice the blade back out (at approximately the same cant angle!) with > decreasing aft-ward and have a positive angle of attack during all three > (unequal!) phases of this (half-) stroke despite the switch in leading edge. I've noticed, in experimenting with this stroke, that if you simply relax at the end of the stroke, the paddle blade just planes to the surface of it own accord. By incorporating a brief rest between strokes you can find a very easy and efficient stroke. -- mike ----------------------------------- Michael Edelman medelman_at_ameritech.net http://www.foldingkayaks.org http://www.findascope.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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