This query has to do with switching back and forth between various paddle types and how frustrating or easy people have found it to be. Right now I paddle with one of several Swift 2-piece paddles, fiberglass models with graphite shafts. I like them a good deal, as the provide an excellent combination of light weight and durability. Now if they hadn't gotten a little silly with their current boat line (my opinion), and pulled some bone-head moves last year in remedying a customer service issue, I might just spring for a Wind Swift as a reserve paddle (since its narrow blade fits nicely on the rear deck of my boat) or a Sea Swift as a big, power-blade for when I feel like a good workout. But, given the present state of affairs, I'll likely look elsewhere. Right now I'm looking at two (not mutually exclusive) things: First, being real close to pulling the trigger on a Feathercraft Khatsolano purchase, I'm very intrigued by Greenland-style paddles such as their "Klatwa" model. I'm also looking at either a bent-shaft paddle, preferably a lightweight carbon-fiber (or nylon / carbon-fiber combo) job, or maybe just a nice lightweight carbon-fiber straight-shaft paddle (e.g., an Epic or maybe the Nimbus "Feather" model or ...). But my real question is this: For those with a paddle collection that includes fundamentally diverse styles such as the above, do they 1) find themselves using just one type and letting the rest gather dust, or 2) switching back and forth between them as mood and situation dictate. If the answer is "2", just how difficult do you find the transition to be? I would imagine, not having tried it, that it would be quite a challenge. But not having tried it myself, I don't really know. -.- jwd *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Sunday, September 15, 2002, at 12:45:36 PM PST, James Durkin wrote: > For those with a paddle collection that includes fundamentally > diverse styles such as the above, do they > 1) find themselves using just one type and letting the rest gather > dust, Since I got my Greenland Paddles, I've only used my trusty old Werner San Juan for dedicated shore break surfing. I still like the Werner, and feel comfortable with it, but I much prefer using the GPs for general paddling. > or 2) switching back and forth between them as mood and situation > dictate. At this point, as I mentioned, I only use my Werner when I'm playing all day in big surf. The wider blades do offer more immediate power for fast corrective strokes without having to move my hand position. On a "normal" paddling day though, which can still include some surf landings and launchings, I'll only use my Greenland paddles. > If the answer is "2", just how difficult do you find the transition > to be? I would imagine, not having tried it, that it would be quite > a challenge. But not having tried it myself, I don't really know. Going from years of using an 80 degree feathered "Euro" paddle to non-feathered Greenland Paddles that require some definite differences in technique was an interesting and sometimes clumsy experience. After a couple of weeks though, I became very comfortable with the Greenland paddles. Now, switching back and forth between them isn't a problem. A few seconds to get used to the different feel, and all is well. -- Melissa *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
----- Original Message ----- From: "Melissa Reese" <melissa_at_bonnyweeboaty.net > > Since I got my Greenland Paddles, I've only used my trusty old Werner > San Juan for dedicated shore break surfing. I still like the Werner, > and feel comfortable with it, but I much prefer using the GPs for > general paddling. Just out of curiosity, I have a question that rises out of Melissa's answer. I know that generally in a cruising situation one with a Greenland paddle can keep up with or even be faster than paddlers with Europaddles (all else being equal); and the Greenland paddle is easier to learn to roll with and roll with. However, I was wondering whether a Greenland paddle has the sheer power to get you out of a jam, say if you suddenly find yourself being swept into a dangerous close pier by gale winds. Something like that happened the other day where it seemed I needed lots of immediate power to break free of the dicey situation. There is a reason why wide blades are used in whitewater and also generally in surfing. ralph diaz *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Even in surf I never use my old Euro paddles these days. Today, for instance, there was a small craft advisory on Lake Michigan and the surf was rough but my GPs were just dandy. I'm not sure launching and landing under these conditions qualifies as "play," but it was fun and the big offshore waves made for real kayaking. TFJ > Since I got my Greenland Paddles, I've only used my trusty old Werner > San Juan for dedicated shore break surfing. I still like the Werner, > and feel comfortable with it, but I much prefer using the GPs for > general paddling. > *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Sun, Sep 15, 2002 at 06:25:54PM -0700, Steve Holtzman wrote: > My wife (who also paddles), claims I have a "collection of paddles". I have > an Aquabound Expedition in glass that I used to use and now just keep it for > people to paddle. I also have 2 Swift(glass blades and carbon shafts), one > is a Mid Swift and the other is a Sea Swift, and the paddle I use most is a > Toksook designed by Derek Hutchinson. My wife claims weird things about my paddling obsession too. Most notably of late my growing library of books and tapes (and a desire to build a CLC stitch-and-glue Pax 20 or a strip-built Redfish King). But hey, when you get to spend 8-12 hours a day in a passive motion machine for much of a month, you've got to do something to occupy your mind (and I couldn't figure out how to rig it up under my corner computer desk). Besides, she's got here own boat, paddles, and accessories too, so it's the pot calling the kettle black. > I used to use the Mid Swift as my "normal" paddle before getting the > Toksook. I had originally tried the Toksook a year ago and thought it was > too heavy and I didn't like the 90 deg feather ( my Swifts were ordered with > a 60 degree feather). After taking a class from Derek and having Wayne > Horodowich loan me his Toksook, I purchased one that day. This is a very > heavy paddle (about twice the weight of the Swifts) with a carbon shaft and > blades, although the blades have a metal tip embedded in them. The blades > are very similar to a GP. They are symmetrical, narrow, and long. The amount > of support is absolutely phenomenal. I almost always use that paddle unless > I am doing some real long distance stuff and then I go back to the Swift. I was quite interested in the Toksook once I learned about it. It seemed a modern paddle built on the best components of the original Greenland design. Plus you get Derek H's decidedly personal take on "rightness". It's write up in the New York Kayak Co.'s catalog (plus the shots of Randy or his SO using it) gave some credence to its usefulness. It also gets excellent comments from the University of Sea Kayaking site. But once I went looking for one, it was a different story. The company or people that import it have a web site that is, for all intents and purposes DEAD/DEAD/DEAD! When I queried Randy at NY Kayak Co., he was now far from enthusiastic about it, calling it "weird" (in the same way that those who don't like Derek H., but are polite about it, refer to him). So, short of buying it sight unseen from USK, I wouldn't get to try it. I thought the metal tip on the blades was a neat idea. No worry about putting too much pressure on it when getting in or out of the boat (I'm one of those chaps cursed with legs way too long to simply pop them up and over the coming as I come in to the beach for a "straddle the boat like a horse landing and dismount".) It looks like it would also work well for chipping away a Zebra Mussel clusters when otherwise bored. > No problem switching even though the feather angles are so > different. After a few minutes, bracing is automatic---but for rough > conditions, the Toksook sure makes me feel a lot more secure on the > water. The 90 degree feather angle kind of scares the bejesus out of me. I learned to paddle w/o feathered blades. I still generally paddle non-feathered, but when I switch, I like something much less radical. Thanks for the info Steve. Do you have any other suggested sources on the Toksook? Especially where one might get to try one in the Northeast or Mid-Atlantic states? *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I build and use my own Greenland style paddles and honestly have no desire to use any thing else now, and I have used a few different styles of paddle. I have 2 breakdown gp and 3 long sticks. I did have 5 long sticks but some bad glue in one delaminated and I cracked my main use paddle in a howling off shore wind towing my son to safety, a quick fix with a screw has held it together for another 2 years of more sedate paddling and the paddle was already 4 years old when I broke it. You cannot beat a wooden shaft for comfort and I have no desire to use a feathered blade ever again. Ralf Diaz wrote > roll with. However, I was wondering whether a Greenland paddle has the > sheer power to get you out of a jam, say if you suddenly find yourself being Not something that I have had a problem with, as above, you just drive more of the blade into the water, well thats my experiences any way. cheers Wilky from a cold wet wintery spring Tasmania *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Snip >However, I was wondering whether a Greenland paddle has the > sheer power to get you out of a jam, say if you suddenly find yourself being > swept into a dangerous close pier by gale winds. > ralph diaz Try the sliding stroke. More blade in the water and less in the air. Although I haven't used the GP in dangerous situations, I was using in a strong tidal rip and 25 knot winds a few days ago. The sliding stroke helped me power up against the conditions just fine. I don't think I would have got much more power from my wide Euro blade. Snip >Going from years of using an 80 degree feathered "Euro" paddle to >non-feathered Greenland Paddles that require some definite differences >in technique was an interesting and sometimes clumsy experience. After >a couple of weeks though, I became very comfortable with the Greenland >paddles >Melissa I found my hand turning the GP on each stroke when I first started using it. To train myself out of it I used a neoprene wrist band (like used for sports injuries or RSI ). Worked a treat. Now can go from a feathered Euro to unfeathered GP without thinking about it. Also found my Euro technique improved since the GP forces you to use a lot of torso rotation. Cheers Grant *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I have always liked the "romance" of using a home carved traditional Greenland style paddle, but have always used a large Werner San Juan instead. After seeing what appeared to be some sort of resurgence of the GP's I decided that I really needed to give them a fair try before settling on a personal opinion of their capabilities. So I carved a paddle and resigned myself to use it exclusively for at least a year. The transition, at first, was very hard. The GP handled much differently then my trusty San Juan. The switch was made even more difficult in that my favorite boat of fifteen years was stolen during this period forcing me to add one more variable to the test. But as I forced myself to stick with it, and eventually became more proficient with using the GP, I actually began to really like it! Then, for a while, I became so fond of it that I began to much prefer it to my San Juan! About this time I started refining the fit of my new North Bay, and was getting comfortable enough in it to start really putting it through ropes. As I began pushing the boat into more extreme conditions (the type of paddling I really enjoy) I started finding the GP to be somewhat lacking. The GP seems very efficient at propelling the boat, it's very quiet when stalking things on the water, and it's really a lot of fun for rolling. But, at least in my experience, it seems much weaker for really being able to put the boat on edge and brace with. I ended up using the GP for about a year and a half before switching back to the San Juan. At this point I just don't feel that I can really depend on the GP for what I want, when I when I want it. I fully acknowledge that it may be my lack of experience or ability with the paddle rather then any limitations of the paddle itself. I will try to go back to the GP at a point in the future when I am much more comfortable in the North Bay and can concentrate on the paddle without thought to the boat. I still feel the GP is sexier then the other types of paddles, and looking good in the boat is almost as important as performance, right? :-)) Just my two cents, Scott So.Cal. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
James Durkin: This query has to do with switching back and forth between various paddle types and how frustrating or easy people have found it to be. Me: During the summer I paddle four or five days a week. My usual pattern is to run slalom gates one day with my slalom, European style, paddle. The next day, to use completely different muscles and for balance skills, I paddle my slalom kayak with a canoe paddle that is cut down in length. The third day in the cycle is an aerobic workout with my slalom boat and my Superior brand Inuit paddle, which uses different muscles than either of the other two paddle styles. I always use the slalom boat for daily paddles because it is so light and easy to carry [nine kilograms]. On camping trips I use both Inuit and European paddles, sometimes using both in the same session with my Romany. This past week I camped on the Mississippi River in Illinois. With my Inuit paddle I surfed a barge pusher's wake for about ten minutes. I found my acceleration feeling just as good as with my European style paddle, a Mitchell Sea Blade if that matters. I had no trouble catching back up to the boat with the Inuit paddle when I fell off the wake. Anyway, because I switch so often, I have no trouble at all making the transition from one blade type to the other to the third. In fact, on camping trips my spare is often the canoe paddle. Rolling is easier for me with the Inuit paddle but I haven't used it enough in violent water to be comfortable with emergency braces yet. And my Inuit boat is a skin on frame kayak that is 17.5 inches wide and 18 feet long, so wavy water really does require a lot of braces! So far I haven't been tipped over in the narrow boat, but the day is coming, I know. Jim Tibensky _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 9/15/2002 5:11:50 PM Pacific Daylight Time, rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com writes: > However, I was wondering whether a Greenland paddle has the > sheer power to get you out of a jam, say if you suddenly find yourself > being > swept into a dangerous close pier by gale winds. I find them, Greenland Paddles, to be as effective as other paddles in extreme conditions if one uses the appropriate technique for the condition. The sliding stroke with a more vertical entry will provide the initial outburst necessary to compete against prevailing conditions. Once up to speed a standard stroke is as fast as one from the other paddles. In bad winds, a GP, in my opinion, is much less susceptable to wind. It stays lower along the deck for one thing and the edges are much finer and offer much less surface to be grabbed by the wind. When one goes vertical the blade is typically deeper and is still much less of a target for wind. For sea kayaking I've not gone back to the other side. I find no reason as GP's are again, in my opinion, emeinently more useful. Rob G *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 11:38 AM -0400 9/16/02, Rcgibbert_at_aol.com wrote: >In a message dated 9/15/2002 5:11:50 PM Pacific Daylight Time, >rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com writes: > > >> However, I was wondering whether a Greenland paddle has the >> sheer power to get you out of a jam, say if you suddenly find yourself >> being >> swept into a dangerous close pier by gale winds. > >I find them, Greenland Paddles, to be as effective as other paddles in >extreme conditions if one uses the appropriate technique for the condition. >The sliding stroke with a more vertical entry will provide the initial >outburst necessary to compete against prevailing conditions. Once up to speed >a standard stroke is as fast as one from the other paddles. If a GP is as effective as a "euro" only if you use proper technique, why can't you use those same techniques on a euro to make it even more effective? Why doesn't a sliding stroke with a euro increase its power in the same way the stroke increases the power of a GP? > >In bad winds, a GP, in my opinion, is much less susceptable to wind. It stays >lower along the deck for one thing and the edges are much finer and offer >much less surface to be grabbed by the wind. When one goes vertical the blade >is typically deeper and is still much less of a target for wind. For sea >kayaking I've not gone back to the other side. I find no reason as GP's are >again, in my opinion, emeinently more useful. I am confused about why a euro does not stay close to the deck like a GP. What is it about the euro that makes it so this technique is not possible? And again, why can't you use a sliding stroke to reduce the exposed area of the blade? If the advantage of a GP is a low stroke posture and the ability to do a sliding stroke, I don't know why these advantages are not available to the euro. -- Nick Schade Guillemot Kayaks 824 Thompson St Glastonbury, CT 06033 (860) 659-8847 *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Monday, September 16, 2002, at 9:46:34 AM PST, Nick Schade wrote: > If the advantage of a GP is a low stroke posture and the ability to > do a sliding stroke, I don't know why these advantages are not > available to the euro. I've always slid my hands along my euro paddle shafts for various reasons, and even held the very ends of the blades for special occasions, but it's still not the same as being able to slide your hands *all along the length of the blades*, as you can with a GP. Since a GP blade at its very widest (at the very end) is narrow enough for the paddler to comfortably grasp across the width (usually about 3.5 inches wide), it presents more possible hand positions for both sliding and extended stroke techniques. While there are some similarities in the advantage of sliding hands along the shaft of a euro paddle and a sliding or extended stroke with a GP, there are distinct differences as well. Where these differences are concerned, I find more variety of advantage to these techniques when used with a GP. Also...with the Greenland storm paddle, a sliding stroke must be used, and this not only reduces the amount of blade flapping in the wind, it nearly eliminates it...without really losing power. I generally find this more effective at reducing blade windage than a feathered euro paddle. -- Melissa *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Another illustration of this is the type of roll you can do with a GP using an asymmetrical grip (like the sliding stroke mentioned below), driving the paddle face deeper into the water with a slight angle to the sweeping paddle face. (I think this is called a vertical storm roll.) These rolls are very powerful, just right for really bad conditions. TFJ > However, I was wondering whether a Greenland paddle has the > sheer power to get you out of a jam, say if you suddenly find yourself > being > swept into a dangerous close pier by gale winds. I find them, Greenland Paddles, to be as effective as other paddles in extreme conditions if one uses the appropriate technique for the condition. ------------------------------------------ The information contained in this e-mail message may be privileged, confidential, and protected from disclosure. If you are not the intended recipient, any further disclosure or use, dissemination, distribution, or copying of this message or any attachment is strictly prohibited. If you think that you have received this e-mail message in error, please delete it and notify the sender. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Sun, 15 Sep 2002 14:45:36 -0500, "James Durkin" <jwd_at_phonogram.net> said: > This query has to do with switching back and forth between various > > paddle types and how frustrating or easy people have found it to be. > For those with a paddle collection that includes fundamentally diverse > styles such as the above, do they 1) find themselves using just one > type and letting the rest gather dust, or 2) switching back and forth > between them as mood and situation dictate. If the answer is "2", > just how difficult do you find the transition to be? I regularly use 5 different kayak paddles (and 2 canoe paddles): A 45 degree feather euro paddle in my whitewater/surf kayak A greenland style or 60 degree feather lightning paddle in my sea kayak A 70 degree offset wing paddle on my surf ski A bow paddle (hands are vertical, with palms facing each other) in the offseason with my sea kayak. It takes me about 5 strokes to get accustomed to the paddle du jour. Go for it, why limit your paddle collection to just one offset ;-) Kirk -- http://fastmail.fm - The way an email service should be *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 9/16/2002 9:47:59 AM Pacific Daylight Time, schade_at_guillemot-kayaks.com writes: > If a GP is as effective as a "euro" only if you use proper technique, > why can't you use those same techniques on a euro to make it even > more effective? Why doesn't a sliding stroke with a euro increase its > power in the same way the stroke increases the power of a GP? > Why not? Can you take a "euro" paddle and maintain the same depth and maintain an adequate indexing with a round or oval shaft as opposed to say, a GP that has longer blades that aid in indexing? Possibly, but the GP itself would be far more natural at it than a "euro." Fast cadences with a sliding stroke on a GP are relatively simple, particularly in the inquired of conditions Ralph asked of, moreso say, than a "euro". Again, the blade length/width assists in the hand position. > > > >In bad winds, a GP, in my opinion, is much less susceptable to wind. It > stays > >lower along the deck for one thing and the edges are much finer and offer > >much less surface to be grabbed by the wind. When one goes vertical the > blade > >is typically deeper and is still much less of a target for wind. For sea > >kayaking I've not gone back to the other side. I find no reason as GP's > are > >again, in my opinion, emeinently more useful. > > I am confused about why a euro does not stay close to the deck like a > GP. What is it about the euro that makes it so this technique is not > possible? And again, why can't you use a sliding stroke to reduce the > exposed area of the blade? Next time you take to sea Nick, try a sliding stroke with a "euro" where your hand goes up to the throat of the blade and the other blade is buried deep. Then try it with the Greenland. Incidentally, in all the paddle technique primers I've read and been instructed from one of the more common issues is not to bury the (euro) blade too deeply. Additionally, If you slide the stroke on a "euro" and a foot or two of shaft are submerged it seems to me the blade would also be much harder to retrieve than a GP. It seems then to follow, that the "Euro" on a sliding stroke would then be less effective as it would take longer for the next stroke exposing one to harsher conditions and negating the need for such a practice in the conditions discussed in the string. 2 cents, Rob G > > If the advantage of a GP is a low stroke posture and the ability to > do a sliding stroke, I don't know why these advantages are not > available to the euro. > They are. But low stroke posture isn't the only "advantage", just one attribute of that particular paddle (GP). Again, try a sliding stroke with a "euro" in high winds and rough seas and do it with a GP, assuming you are competent with it and tell me what is more naturally conducive to that maneuver. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Monday, September 16, 2002, at 10:29:31 AM PST, Rcgibbert_at_aol.com wrote: > Additionally, If you slide the stroke on a "euro" and a foot or two > of shaft are submerged it seems to me the blade would also be much > harder to retrieve than a GP. It seems then to follow, that the > "Euro" on a sliding stroke would then be less effective as it would > take longer for the next stroke exposing one to harsher conditions > and negating the need for such a practice in the conditions > discussed in the string. A "sliding stroke" with a GP is really pretty different than sliding hands along a euro paddle shaft to achieve some extension/leverage. When we slide a GP, we can bury the full blade either close to or further away from the boat, but when we're sliding hands along a euro paddle shaft, we're effectively only extending the position - away from the boat - where we can effectively place our blade in the water (without burying a couple extra feet of shaft and putting the blade deep under the surface - which could really decrease one's ultimate control). When a GP blade is buried deep in the water - sliding stroke or not - the water side hand is either just on the blade or still fairly close to it, and the other hand is comfortably gripping across the width of other blade - which gives a great deal of control. If you extend your position on a euro paddle shaft, your water side hand is much further away from the extended blade, with lots of shaft exposed, and your other hand cannot grip the other blade for the same degree of control (perhaps just at the very throat, but it's really not the same type of comfortable control you can achieve by holding a GP blade in your hand). While I do find it very useful and effective to move my hands along a euro paddle shaft in a variety of ways, and have developed a powerful and graceful technique with a euro paddle (if I do say so myself - which I did!), I find sliding and extended strokes even more effective and graceful when used with a GP. To each our own, but I'll second Shawn's recommendation to anyone curious about GPs...give them a try for a couple of months! I don't know why exactly, but it took me several years of using only a feathered euro paddle before I decided to try a GP, and now I'm hopelessly hooked on my GPs! I'll still happily use a euro paddle when that's what's available, but my preference is clearly for GPs now. As is obvious, I can go on and on about what I feel are the *practical* pros and cons of the different paddles and techniques used with them, but just as with boats, our ultimate considerations include the aesthetic as well as the practical. It just so happens that in my case, my aesthetic sense mirrors my practical side quite closely. I prefer W. Greenland style boats for both performance and looks, and I also prefer Greenland Paddles in both regards. I prefer a straight shaft euro paddle over a bent shaft euro paddle - again for both performance and aesthetic reasons (I think a bent shaft paddle is limited in it's performance possibilities, and I also think they're really ugly! :-)). Again...to each our own. The ultimate goal for any of us paddlers is to enjoy our lives on the water. Whatever works for each of is the "best there is". -- Melissa *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 11:52 AM -0700 9/16/02, Melissa Reese wrote: >On Monday, September 16, 2002, at 10:29:31 AM PST, Rcgibbert_at_aol.com >wrote: > >> Additionally, If you slide the stroke on a "euro" and a foot or two >> of shaft are submerged it seems to me the blade would also be much >> harder to retrieve than a GP. It seems then to follow, that the >> "Euro" on a sliding stroke would then be less effective as it would >> take longer for the next stroke exposing one to harsher conditions >> and negating the need for such a practice in the conditions >> discussed in the string. > >A "sliding stroke" with a GP is really pretty different than sliding >hands along a euro paddle shaft to achieve some extension/leverage. > >When we slide a GP, we can bury the full blade either close to or >further away from the boat, but when we're sliding hands along a euro >paddle shaft, we're effectively only extending the position - away >from the boat - where we can effectively place our blade in the water >(without burying a couple extra feet of shaft and putting the blade >deep under the surface - which could really decrease one's ultimate >control). Frankly I don't see any difference between pushing a GP blade deep in the water and putting a euro deep in the water. In both cases you are moving the center of effort of the blade farther out from your hands. The physical result is the same. How does a sliding stroke create an advantage if it doesn't move the center of effort away from the boat? >When a GP blade is buried deep in the water - sliding stroke or not - >the water side hand is either just on the blade or still fairly close >to it, and the other hand is comfortably gripping across the width of >other blade - which gives a great deal of control. If you extend your >position on a euro paddle shaft, your water side hand is much further >away from the extended blade, with lots of shaft exposed, and your >other hand cannot grip the other blade for the same degree of control >(perhaps just at the very throat, but it's really not the same type of >comfortable control you can achieve by holding a GP blade in your >hand). How does the fact that your hand is touching the blade increase your control? What is it about the GP that makes gripping its blade more effective at control than gripping the base of a euro blade? How does shaft "exposure" decrease control? I could understand if euro paddles had a tendency to rotate in your hands, but they don't. Good euro paddles have egg shaped shaft sections, but even round shafts don't have a tendency to spin in your hands. How does fact that there is a section of shaft "exposed" between your hand and the blade effect paddle control? -- Nick Schade Guillemot Kayaks 824 Thompson St Glastonbury, CT 06033 (860) 659-8847 *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Monday, September 16, 2002, at 4:40:23 PM PST, Nick Schade wrote: > Frankly I don't see any difference between pushing a GP blade deep > in the water and putting a euro deep in the water. In both cases you > are moving the center of effort of the blade farther out from your > hands. The physical result is the same. How does a sliding stroke > create an advantage if it doesn't move the center of effort away > from the boat? Hi Nick, You're right about moving the center of effort away from the boat...it's the same with both types of paddle. I was trying - and not very well - to describe the different relationship of how much of the entire length of paddle is in the water during a stroke, as well as some aspect of different types of control possible as a result of that, and the different way in which holding a GP blade assists in its own way of "indexing" (as opposed to holding the throat of a feathered euro paddle blade). Since a GP's blade takes up more of the paddle's overall length than a Euro blade (and consequently the shaft is much shorter), there *is* a distinct difference in how a "sliding stroke" feels and responds when used with a GP as opposed to sliding hands along a euro paddle. I didn't explain myself very well (still haven't, I fear), and when I have more time to try and think this out, I may try again. In non-technical mode, I will say this though... After years of using a euro paddle, and developing a very comfortable and efficient technique with it, it wasn't long after I switched to a GP that I came to really prefer it. Perhaps I'll never be able to explain the reasons in all their finer technical details (just because of my lack of true "techno-geekness" when it comes to hydrodynamics), but for me, on-the-water experience with both paddle types has shown me clearly what I'm more comfortable with, and what I now prefer. -- Melissa *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 1:29 PM -0400 9/16/02, Rcgibbert_at_aol.com wrote: >In a message dated 9/16/2002 9:47:59 AM Pacific Daylight Time, >schade_at_guillemot-kayaks.com writes: > > >Why not? Can you take a "euro" paddle and maintain the same depth >and maintain an adequate indexing with a round or oval shaft as >opposed to say, a GP that has longer blades that aid in indexing? >Possibly, but the GP itself would be far more natural at it than a >"euro." Fast cadences with a sliding stroke on a GP are relatively >simple, particularly in the inquired of conditions Ralph asked of, >moreso say, than a "euro". Again, the blade length/width assists in >the hand position. Yes, I can. Could you explain what you mean by "natural". Sliding strokes with a euro are very easy, you just slide your hands. You don't even need to open your hand. > >> > >>>In bad winds, a GP, in my opinion, is much less susceptable to >>>wind. It stays >>>lower along the deck for one thing and the edges are much finer and offer >>>much less surface to be grabbed by the wind. When one goes >>>vertical the blade >>>is typically deeper and is still much less of a target for wind. For sea >>>kayaking I've not gone back to the other side. I find no reason as GP's are >>>again, in my opinion, emeinently more useful. >> >>I am confused about why a euro does not stay close to the deck like a >>GP. What is it about the euro that makes it so this technique is not >>possible? And again, why can't you use a sliding stroke to reduce the >>exposed area of the blade? >> > > >Next time you take to sea Nick, try a sliding stroke with a "euro" >where your hand goes up to the throat of the blade and the other >blade is buried deep. Then try it with the Greenland. Incidentally, >in all the paddle technique primers I've read and been instructed >from one of the more common issues is not to bury the (euro) blade >too deeply. Additionally, If you slide the stroke on a "euro" and a >foot or two of shaft are submerged it seems to me the blade would >also be much harder to retrieve than a GP. It seems then to follow, >that the "Euro" on a sliding stroke would then be less effective as >it would take longer for the next stroke exposing one to harsher >conditions and negating the need for such a practice in the >conditions discussed in the string. Can you explain how the burying a blade deep is good for one kind of blade and not for another. Why do you feel an extended paddle grip would force the euro paddle to go any deeper than a GP. A low stroke will not deeply submerge any blade. Why would a GP be easier to get out of the water if it just as deep as the euro? What is it about the geometry of the GP that makes the geometry of its stroke any different from a euro? Since it is hard to grip the blade wouldn't you expect that the euro would actually not go as deep as a GP? > >> >>If the advantage of a GP is a low stroke posture and the ability to >>do a sliding stroke, I don't know why these advantages are not >>available to the euro. >> > > >They are. But low stroke posture isn't the only "advantage", just >one attribute of that particular paddle (GP). Again, try a sliding >stroke with a "euro" in high winds and rough seas and do it with a >GP, assuming you are competent with it and tell me what is more >naturally conducive to that maneuver. This is the old "if you don't agree with me, you must be doing it wrong" argument. If you can't explain the difference how do you know it exists. -- Nick Schade Guillemot Kayaks 824 Thompson St Glastonbury, CT 06033 (860) 659-8847 *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 9/16/2002 12:02:14 PM Pacific Daylight Time, melissa_at_bonnyweeboaty.net writes: > On Monday, September 16, 2002, at 10:29:31 AM PST, Rcgibbert_at_aol.com > wrote: > > > A "sliding stroke" with a GP is really pretty different than sliding > hands along a euro paddle shaft to achieve some extension/leverage. So true. > > but when we're sliding hands along a euro > paddle shaft, we're effectively only extending the position - away > from the boat - where we can effectively place our blade in the water > (without burying a couple extra feet of shaft and putting the blade > deep under the surface - which could really decrease one's ultimate > control). I would liken that to having a 50 pound halibut on the end of a gaff. > > When a GP blade is buried deep in the water - sliding stroke or not - > the water side hand is either just on the blade or still fairly close > to it, and the other hand is comfortably gripping across the width of > other blade - which gives a great deal of control. If you extend your > position on a euro paddle shaft, your water side hand is much further > away from the extended blade, with lots of shaft exposed, and your > other hand cannot grip the other blade for the same degree of control > (perhaps just at the very throat, but it's really not the same type of > comfortable control you can achieve by holding a GP blade in your > hand). > I think Nick was asking why one might not use the "Euro" in the manner of a GP relative to these strokes. I value many of Nick's opinions as well as the attitude that gives others the opportunity to justify their beliefs when discussing such matters. That being said, I don't feel a "Euro" can do many of the things a GP can relative to the discussion. Sure, one might bury the blade more deeply, drop the angle of attack lower to help shed wind, etc., however, in these spoken of conditions the "euro" seems to pose far more challenges and in my hands is not as good. > While I do find it very useful and effective to move my hands along a > euro paddle shaft in a variety of ways, and have developed a powerful > and graceful technique with a euro paddle (if I do say so myself - > which I did!), I find sliding and extended strokes even more effective > and graceful when used with a GP. There you are! So many subtle things can be done by blending the strokes with either paddle. I find the simplicity in design of the GP that has not a feather, nor control hand, or dihedryl a very attractive paddling tool. I have never been in rough water, upside down or generally fussin' about my situation and said: Gee, I wish I had my "euro" paddle. Quite the opposite. I have been in those situations and wished the trusty ol' GP was there. But then again, I'd feel awfully silly with a GP on the river. > > Begging your pardon as I know I've thrown alot more than 2 cents at this, Rob G *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 9/16/2002 4:27:19 PM Pacific Daylight Time, schade_at_guillemot-kayaks.com writes: > > > > > >Why not? Can you take a "euro" paddle and maintain the same depth > >and maintain an adequate indexing with a round or oval shaft as > >opposed to say, a GP that has longer blades that aid in indexing? > >Possibly, but the GP itself would be far more natural at it than a > >"euro." Fast cadences with a sliding stroke on a GP are relatively > >simple, particularly in the inquired of conditions Ralph asked of, > >moreso say, than a "euro". Again, the blade length/width assists in > >the hand position. > > Yes, I can. Could you explain what you mean by "natural". Sliding > strokes with a euro are very easy, you just slide your hands. You > don't even need to open your hand. In my opinion, the shift of hands across the blades of a GP, with its long outward tapering blades, larger diameter loom (shaft) and blade roots allow a precise entry and exit. I suppose the term "natural" comes from not having to cock a wrist back on the control side as one slides up a feathered "euro". With a GP there is no feather, control hand or thin edgy blades, just a symetrical paddle that can be slid from side to side very simply or dare I say..."naturally". > > > > >> > > >>>In bad winds, a GP, in my opinion, is much less susceptable to > >>>wind. It stays > >>>lower along the deck for one thing and the edges are much finer and > offer > >>>much less surface to be grabbed by the wind. When one goes > >>>vertical the blade > >>>is typically deeper and is still much less of a target for wind. For sea > >>>kayaking I've not gone back to the other side. I find no reason as GP's > are > >>>again, in my opinion, emeinently more useful. > >> > >>I am confused about why a euro does not stay close to the deck like a > >>GP. What is it about the euro that makes it so this technique is not > >>possible? And again, why can't you use a sliding stroke to reduce the > >>exposed area of the blade? > >> > > > > > >Next time you take to sea Nick, try a sliding stroke with a "euro" > >where your hand goes up to the throat of the blade and the other > >blade is buried deep. Then try it with the Greenland. Incidentally, > >in all the paddle technique primers I've read and been instructed > >from one of the more common issues is not to bury the (euro) blade > >too deeply. Additionally, If you slide the stroke on a "euro" and a > >foot or two of shaft are submerged it seems to me the blade would > >also be much harder to retrieve than a GP. It seems then to follow, > >that the "Euro" on a sliding stroke would then be less effective as > >it would take longer for the next stroke exposing one to harsher > >conditions and negating the need for such a practice in the > >conditions discussed in the string. > > Can you explain how the burying a blade deep is good for one kind of > blade and not for another. > > The technique for a sliding stroke, often used for quick propulsion or wind > resistance, (such as the original inquiry of this thread), slides the > outboard hand along the outboard blade, the inboard hand slides up around > the center of the loom and sinks all of the inboard blade plus some loom > into the water. Most blades are in the + 30 inch length category and > commonly 35 inches plus. The lift generated is excellent. A "euro" could do > it, sure, but then as discussed in the answer to your previous question I > don't find it as simple to achieve the same effect owing to feathering, > degree of, control hand, dihedryl of blade, etc. I don't believe using a > sliding stroke on the "euro" is as easy when it typically goes in past the > knee and one must push/pull a wider blade through the water, taking it out > at the hip. > Why do you feel an extended paddle grip > would force the euro paddle to go any deeper than a GP. You are correct, it wouldn't. A low stroke > will not deeply submerge any blade. Why would a GP be easier to > get > out of the water if it just as deep as the euro? As the GP comes out of the water past the hip and the "euro" at about the hip the slice upwards of the GP seems quicker. As it is past your hip the angle upward is less severe. It certainly feels easier pushing a GP from about the knee past the hip. It is most likely subjective, whether one prefers either type, but a shorter stroke with a "euro" limits its efficiency as subjected to the original inquiry of the thread that asked of technique for quick propulsion and wind shedding values in dicey areas. > > What is it about the geometry of the GP that makes the geometry of > its stroke any different from a euro? I wouldn't even fathom explaining the geometrical difference of GP versus a "euro". Just looking at them contrastingly speaks volumes. On the serious side, I think its stroke is much different than that of a "euro". One stroke being taught today, the canted blade stroke, has an entry at about the knee and the blade canted between 30-40 degrees. One crunches forward, pushing down to achieve torso leverage, not side to side as in rotation. The stroke slices upward once past the hip. Since it is hard to grip the > blade wouldn't you expect that the euro would > actually not go as deep as a GP? And thus not shed wind as effectively? > > > > >> > >>If the advantage of a GP is a low stroke posture and the ability to > >>do a sliding stroke, I don't know why these advantages are not > >>available to the euro. > >> > > > > > >They are. But low stroke posture isn't the only "advantage", just > >one attribute of that particular paddle (GP). Again, try a sliding > >stroke with a "euro" in high winds and rough seas and do it with a > >GP, assuming you are competent with it and tell me what is more > >naturally conducive to that maneuver. > > This is the old "if you don't agree with me, you must be doing it > wrong" argument. If you can't explain the difference how do you know > it exists. > C'mon Nick, I've not been taught that in debate school. It's a nice label otherwise! Good Paddling, Sir. Respectfully, Rob G *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 9:17 PM -0400 9/16/02, Rcgibbert_at_aol.com wrote: > >A low stroke > will not deeply submerge any blade. Why would a GP be easier to >> get >> out of the water if it just as deep as the euro? > >As the GP comes out of the water past the hip and the "euro" at about the hip >the slice upwards of the GP seems quicker. As it is past your hip the angle >upward is less severe. It certainly feels easier pushing a GP from about the >knee past the hip. It is most likely subjective, whether one prefers either >type, but a shorter stroke with a "euro" limits its efficiency as subjected >to the original inquiry of the thread that asked of technique for quick >propulsion and wind shedding values in dicey areas. Again, what is it about the GP that makes it come out of the water past the hip while the euro comes out near the hip? Looking at the paddles I can see no reason why two paddles of the same length would come out of the water in different places. It seems this is more a function of the person holding the paddle not the paddle itself. > > >> What is it about the geometry of the GP that makes the geometry of >> its stroke any different from a euro? > >I wouldn't even fathom explaining the geometrical difference of GP versus a >"euro". Just looking at them contrastingly speaks volumes. On the serious >side, I think its stroke is much different than that of a "euro". One stroke >being taught today, the canted blade stroke, has an entry at about the knee >and the blade canted between 30-40 degrees. One crunches forward, pushing >down to achieve torso leverage, not side to side as in rotation. The stroke >slices upward once past the hip. Why can't you "cant" a euro paddle? Seems to me that I do and when I look at other euro paddlers so do they. Is there something about the paddle that makes you feel you can not do a "crunch" with a euro. And if there is an advantage to these techniques for a GP, why wouldn't those same techniques provide similar advantages to the euro? BTW people who are really interested in Greenland technique should visit http://www.qajaqusa.org/ This site is the site of record for information on techniques from Greenland. Greg Stamer is currently editing and posting MPEG video clips showing a how the Greenlanders are actually paddling. Nick -- Nick Schade Guillemot Kayaks 824 Thompson St Glastonbury, CT 06033 (860) 659-8847 *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Kirk wrote: >>>>>>>>It takes me about 5 strokes to get accustomed to the paddle du jour. Go for it, why limit your paddle collection to just one offset ;-)<<<<<<<< How about, because I'd like to keep my reflexive brace. Problems I have with GP's: Wet hands Poor slap bracing, must get the GP underwater to get a solid brace (which takes too long) Higher flutter rate (of narrower blades) under high loads make it hard to predict where the paddle blade will be Slower acceleration when trying to catch a wave to surf (when acceleration is critical) Not as powerful for controlling the kayak when surfing Thanks for asking the right questions Nick Matt Broze http://www.marinerkayaks.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
From: "Matt Broze" <mkayaks_at_oz.net> > Problems I have with GP's: > Wet hands Definitely. It's ok at this time of year while the water's warm, but with cold weather a month away... > Poor slap bracing, must get the GP underwater to get a solid brace (which > takes too long) Haven't noticed this problem. > Higher flutter rate (of narrower blades) under high loads make it hard to > predict where the paddle blade will be The paddle doesn't flutter if you use a canted stroke. I haven't bothered with non-canted strokes since overcoming the flutter is a pain. Mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Ralph Diaz wrote > roll with. However, I was wondering whether a Greenland paddle has the > sheer power to get you out of a jam... I wondered, too. A couple of weeks ago I went surfing with my K-1 in some gentle (3') surf off Point Pelee, and before going out the first time I swapped my Klatwa for a spare Werner Little Dipper (old larger model) off a partner's boat, more for the strength than the paddle area. My impression was that I didn't really need to; using good Greenland technique (at least as good as I can manage) the Klatwa was just as effective in making the quick turns on the swells and making corrections on the way in. Not surprising, really. The wetted area of a Greenland paddle is not significantly different from a typical European style paddle, and using techniques like angling the leading edge forward and extending the paddle outward provide plenty of power. I do think I'd like a composite Greenland paddle for those times when some extra strength might be indicated, though. I have an old Werner Arctic Wind (and would love to find another!) but I'd like to find something with a more traditional shape. -- mike ----------------------------------- Michael Edelman medelman_at_ameritech.net http://www.foldingkayaks.org http://www.findascope.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Ralph; I was on that trip in my fat, slow folbot Aleut. Fittingly enough, I was also using an Aleutian (greenland variant) paddle. I had no trouble powering my way out. Like another post said, you just dig deep and vertical. Bruce Ralph Diaz wrote: <<< Just out of curiosity, I have a question that rises out of Melissa's answer. I know that generally in a cruising situation one with a Greenland paddle can keep up with or even be faster than paddlers with Europaddles (all else being equal); and the Greenland paddle is easier to learn to roll with and roll with. However, I was wondering whether a Greenland paddle has the sheer power to get you out of a jam, say if you suddenly find yourself being swept into a dangerous close pier by gale winds. Something like that happened the other day where it seemed I needed lots of immediate power to break free of the dicey situation. There is a reason why wide blades are used in whitewater and also generally in surfing. >>> *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> From: "Matt Broze" <mkayaks_at_oz.net> > Problems I have with GP's: > Wet hands Interestingly, I've noticed that I get less drip on the deck using my Klatwa than I did with various Werner paddles- all of which have drip rings. The Klatwa seems to pick up less water. This may be because I've waxed the heck out of it. Anyone else have similar experiences? > Poor slap bracing, must get the GP underwater to get a solid brace (which > takes too long) > Higher flutter rate (of narrower blades) under high loads make it hard to > predict where the paddle blade will be Technique can fix that. Tilt the paddle so the upper edge leads, and presto- no flutter. > Slower acceleration when trying to catch a wave to surf (when acceleration > is critical) > Not as powerful for controlling the kayak when surfing I'm tempted to say that the right technique can fix this, too, but I suspect it's hard to beat a fat WW paddle for this use. I'm increasingly more comfortable with the GP, so that's what I tend to use. -- mike ----------------------------------- Michael Edelman medelman_at_ameritech.net http://www.foldingkayaks.org http://www.findascope.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 09:33 AM 9/17/02 -0400, Michael Edelman wrote: >>From: "Matt Broze" <mkayaks_at_oz.net> > >>Problems I have with GP's: >>Wet hands > >Interestingly, I've noticed that I get less drip on the deck using my >Klatwa than I did with various Werner paddles- all of which have drip >rings. The Klatwa seems to pick up less water. This may be because I've >waxed the heck out of it. Anyone else have similar experiences? > >>Poor slap bracing, must get the GP underwater to get a solid brace (which >>takes too long) >>Higher flutter rate (of narrower blades) under high loads make it hard to >>predict where the paddle blade will be > >Technique can fix that. Tilt the paddle so the upper edge leads, and >presto- no flutter. > >>Slower acceleration when trying to catch a wave to surf (when acceleration >>is critical) >>Not as powerful for controlling the kayak when surfing > >I'm tempted to say that the right technique can fix this, too, but I >suspect it's hard to beat a fat WW paddle for this use. I'm increasingly >more comfortable with the GP, so that's what I tend to use. I've only been using a GP for about a year and find myself using it more frequently. Last weekend I went out paddling for a few hours. I started with my Euro paddle (a Lightning std touring with, I believe, 75 degree feather). After awhile I landed and stored my euro paddle and did the return trip with my GP. The more I use the GP the easier it gets to switch back and forth. What I've noticed in this discussion is that when deficiencies of a GP are pointed out relative to a euro paddle the answer has typically been "the right technique can fix this". Guess what. The wrong technique causes problems no matter what type of paddle one uses. If a paddler has wrist problems, has problems tracking, or an unreliable brace or roll, switching to a different paddle isn't going to magically solve all those problems. The "right technique" is something that applies to any kind of paddle. It appears to me, that like wooden boat builders, GP users tend to get a bit overzealous in their advocacy of their tools. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Daly" <michaeldaly_at_rogers.com> Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Switching paddle types > From: "Matt Broze" <mkayaks_at_oz.net> > > > Problems I have with GP's: > > Wet hands > > Definitely. It's ok at this time of year while the water's warm, but > with cold weather a month away... If any of the wetness is from water running down the shaft, have you tried tying a twisted cord around the shaft to act as a drip ring. Some people around here are doing this including Bruce who commented just now on how his GP was able to move his fat Folbot Aleut out of the piers area. ralph diaz *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
From: "ralph diaz" <rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com> > From: "Michael Daly" <michaeldaly_at_rogers.com> > > From: "Matt Broze" <mkayaks_at_oz.net> > > > > > Problems I have with GP's: > > > Wet hands > > > > Definitely. It's ok at this time of year while the water's warm, but > > with cold weather a month away... > > If any of the wetness is from water running down the shaft, have you tried > tying a twisted cord around the shaft to act as a drip ring. That's the standard recommendation and I've considered it. However, most of the wet for me is my habit of sinking the paddle into the water until my hand is almost covered. As the water gets colder, I'll have to do something and not dunking the hands is a big part. I'll definitely try the drip line (in a fancy bit of rope work) but I'll probably need gloves from November until the spring. Mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
"Matt Broze" <mkayaks_at_oz.net> wrote: >How about, because I'd like to keep my reflexive brace. I sure don't like switching back and forth. I can do it, but prefer not to. You can do a reactive brace (hit the water, and then react to the tactile clues in the paddle shaft and scull or rotate accordingly), but it's not a true reflexive brace if your hard wiring doesn't tell you where the blade is. You bring up good (and true) points. >Problems I have with GP's: >Wet hands I got used to it. I wear a hat, and wet hands don't get too cold. But yes, they're wet. >Poor slap bracing, must get the GP underwater to get a solid brace >(which takes too long) If you have to get the GP underwater farther, possibly it's because your inboard hand is too high. Get your hands wet, the paddle will be flatter, and you'll get your support at the surface. I don't think low slap bracing is any worse than with a Euro. The high brace does need to be sculled to be as effective. Takes a little longer, but is no less effective, maybe more effective, since you can slow it down as needed and complete a smooth, fluid recovery. With a high braced Euro, you 'slap-head dink-hipsnap' Bam!Bam!Bam!, and if your timing is off, you get to do it again. >Higher flutter rate (of narrower blades) under high loads make it hard >to predict where the paddle blade will be Canted stroke takes care of this. It's not as forgiving as a sloppy Euro stroke, for sure. >Slower acceleration when trying to catch a wave to surf (when acceleration is critical) Agreed. >Not as powerful for controlling the kayak when surfing I don't think rudders are any different than Euros....wet hands.... Shawn __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! News - Today's headlines http://news.yahoo.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Nick Schade <schade_at_guillemot-kayaks.com> wrote: >Why can't you "cant" a euro paddle? Seems to me that I do and when I >look at other euro paddlers so do they. I can't seem to find success canting a Euro as much as the Greenland Paddle. I seem to get more ventilation, possibly due to the rib on the back face of the blade when the paddle is canted to 45º. So...you can, but why would you? Again, you could build a euro with the same profile and action as a GP....but most manufacturers _don't_. Shawn __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! News - Today's headlines http://news.yahoo.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 8:35 AM -0700 9/17/02, Shawn Baker wrote: >Nick Schade <schade_at_guillemot-kayaks.com> wrote: >>Why can't you "cant" a euro paddle? Seems to me that I do and when I >>look at other euro paddlers so do they. > >I can't seem to find success canting a Euro as much as the Greenland >Paddle. I seem to get more ventilation, possibly due to the rib on the >back face of the blade when the paddle is canted to 45†. > >So...you can, but why would you? > >Again, you could build a euro with the same profile and action as a >GP....but most manufacturers _don't_. > The reason you would use a canted blade with a euro is the same reason you would with a GP. The improvement you see with GP when you switch from un-canted to canted also occurs with the euro. It decreases flutter and more importantly it forces the water to flow in on direction around the blade. This increases mass of water you are pushing against. As a result the blade works more efficiently. One interesting often sited result of the canted stroke is it makes the GP feel like it is placed in concrete. To me this sounds like it makes it harder to pull. If the goal of a paddle was to make it easier to pull (more comfortable), I would think people would want to avoid the canted stroke. But most people intuitively understand that the "in concrete" feel is a good thing. Next time you go out with a euro paddle take a look at the blade as you paddle. I bet you will see that the upper edge of blade is canted toward your bow. Maybe it is not as much as with your GP, but I doubt it is perpendicular to the water surface. A clean entry and release almost demand a canted stroke. I think most people end up doing it without even realizing. -- Nick Schade Guillemot Kayaks 824 Thompson St Glastonbury, CT 06033 (860) 659-8847 *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 9/17/2002 6:12:05 AM Pacific Daylight Time, schade_at_guillemot-kayaks.com writes: > Again, what is it about the GP that makes it come out of the water > past the hip while the euro comes out near the hip? Looking at the > paddles I can see no reason why two paddles of the same length would > come out of the water in different places. It seems this is more a > function of the person holding the paddle not the paddle itself. > > That was a technique description (attempted, anyway). And as is usually the > case, it is the function of the paddler and not the paddle. > > Why can't you "cant" a euro paddle? Seems to me that I do and when I > look at other euro paddlers so do they. Is there something about the > paddle that makes you feel you can not do a "crunch" with a euro. And > if there is an advantage to these techniques for a GP, why wouldn't > those same techniques provide similar advantages to the euro? I think the argument stands that you can do most if not all with a "euro" as opposed to a GP. Based on the discussion of GP capability getting one out of a jam it does it very well. (Windy conditions and rough seas driving one into a pier, were the posed conditions.) Much of my claim to the GP's (percieved?) superiority was rooted in the reduction of wind shear, the blades excellent tactile feedback or indexing for sliding strokes sometimes necessary to get out of the supposed jam. I believe you suggested that the "euro's"blades were not comfortable to grip and one wouldn't want to do that in extending that blade. Added wind susceptability? of course. Whether or not one might mimic a technique and translate it to another tool I would suggest it might possibly come at less efficiency. Assuming it is feathered, there would be a control hand involved and round, egg shaped or not it seems quite a stretch to say it would be as fluid as a sliding stroke with the already well described GP technique. Happy Paddling, Rob G *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 2:31 PM -0400 9/17/02, Rcgibbert_at_aol.com wrote: > >I think the argument stands that you can do most if not all with a "euro" as >opposed to a GP. Based on the discussion of GP capability getting one out of >a jam it does it very well. (Windy conditions and rough seas driving one into >a pier, were the posed conditions.) Much of my claim to the GP's (percieved?) >superiority was rooted in the reduction of wind shear, the blades excellent >tactile feedback or indexing for sliding strokes sometimes necessary to get >out of the supposed jam. I believe you suggested that the "euro's"blades were >not comfortable to grip and one wouldn't want to do that in extending that >blade. Added wind susceptability? of course. Whether or not one might mimic a >technique and translate it to another tool I would suggest it might possibly >come at less efficiency. Assuming it is feathered, there would be a control >hand involved and round, egg shaped or not it seems quite a stretch to say it >would be as fluid as a sliding stroke with the already well described GP >technique. The reason to do a sliding stroke is to get more power out of a single stroke. You state that this is sometimes required for the paddle to get out of a jam. However, the typical euro paddle has this power without the need for a sliding stroke. They are used in whitewater after all. If a sliding stroke is needed, it would be hoped that it does it well. But if it is not needed, it is still beneficial if it is possible. Why is it a stretch to think that a sliding stroke couldn't be as fluid as with a GP. With a GP your hand needs to open up, with a euro it doesn't. A barely perceptible cocking of the wrist takes care of the feathering, and you just let the shaft slide. I guess it depends on what you consider fluid, but you seem to suggest the euro sliding stroke is as graceful as a pig on rollerskates. As with the GP, with practice it is very fluid and effortless. Sure it takes practice, but it does with a GP as well. Nick -- Nick Schade Guillemot Kayaks 824 Thompson St Glastonbury, CT 06033 (860) 659-8847 *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
GPs are also fun to make. TFJ " . . . Much of my claim to the GP's (percieved?) superiority was rooted in the reduction of wind shear, the blades excellent tactile feedback or indexing for sliding strokes sometimes necessary to get out of the supposed jam. . . ." ------------------------------------------ The information contained in this e-mail message may be privileged, confidential, and protected from disclosure. If you are not the intended recipient, any further disclosure or use, dissemination, distribution, or copying of this message or any attachment is strictly prohibited. If you think that you have received this e-mail message in error, please delete it and notify the sender. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
From: "ralph diaz" <rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com> > If any of the wetness is from water running down the shaft, have you tried > tying a twisted cord around the shaft to act as a drip ring. Some people > around here are doing this including Bruce who commented just now on how his > GP was able to move his fat Folbot Aleut out of the piers area. Good idea. Interesting you should mention the Aleut; I usually use Euro paddles with the fat boats and a GP with my skinny boats, but something the other day made me reconsider that. I was paddling with a friend who had borrowed my Aleut, and she asked if she could try my (pseudo-GP) Werner Arctic Wind instead of the fatter wooden paddle I'd selected for her. She raved about how much more responsive and easy to use the Arctic Wind was. -- mike ----------------------------------- Michael Edelman medelman_at_ameritech.net http://www.foldingkayaks.org http://www.findascope.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Shawn Baker wrote: but it's not a true reflexive brace if your hard wiring doesn't tell you where the blade is. I knew somebody might call me on this technicality, but for lack of coming up with a better term I used "reflexive" anyway. Technically, a brace is learned behavior and not a hard wired "reflex" you were born with. By "reflexive" I was trying to say "reflex like" because the brace has become such a well polished habit and requires little in the way on conscious thought to apply it (much like a reflex). This makes it much quicker than having to analyze the situation (including which feather angle that you earlier chose to use today) and making a conscious decision as what is best to do each time. My experience (as a high speed mogul skier, a mountain biker (who likes to go fast on single track) and a WW kayaker among other things) has been that the more you can operate at a subconscious level where your body is freed (from your thinking mind) to do what it has learned to do the better it works. When things are happening too fast to process you must do something now then think about what happened later when things have calmed down and you have a little more time for analysis. I can switch from feathered to unfeathered fairly easily. I believe this is because my hands weren't rotating on the paddle shaft-as perhaps the upper hand should be, but I hadn't discovered that yet, and was lifting my elbows and throwing hooks to compensate for the rotation caused by lifting the paddle on one side to take the next stroke on the other-but I digress-anyway by having my hands fixed on the paddle shaft the blade was already in the brace position on both sides. The real problem for me comes when trying to switch back to a feathered blade angle. I'd get a lot of unwelcome edge strokes at first, before readapting to feathered. Sure you can do it, but I doubt anyone can switch back and forth and not lose some of their quickness when suddenly caught off guard by the need to brace right now. I want a brace to be like a pole plant when skiing fast, quickly do its job of putting you back in balance and then just as quickly retract to be ready to do brace again. I get the feeling many folk see a brace as a deliberate move that is planned for and can be executed to meet some anticipated situation (like that breaker you can see coming from the side). I want it for those times I didn't see the need coming in advance. GP downsides-can't wear pogies and move your hand around on the blade. How does one do a sliding stroke if you've wrapped a line around the blade to act as a drip ring? Tonight I was trying Eskimo style strokes with a wide bladed "Euro" paddle. The sliding stroke was a little awkward at first but I got better at it with a little practice. I can't see when I might want to use it though. It might have some advantage in high winds but I've gotten along with out it these last 25 years some of which were in high winds where I'd rather not be sliding my hand around on the paddle. During high winds, or in real rough water, is when I keep a tight grip on the paddle. I think we have come upon another one of those "religious" debates in paddling. Matt Broze http://www.marinerkayaks.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
----- Original Message ----- From: "Nick Schade" <schade_at_guillemot-kayaks.com> > The reason to do a sliding stroke is to get more power out of a > single stroke. You state that this is sometimes required for the > paddle to get out of a jam. However, the typical euro paddle has this > power without the need for a sliding stroke. They are used in > whitewater after all. If a sliding stroke is needed, it would be > hoped that it does it well. But if it is not needed, it is still > beneficial if it is possible. > > Why is it a stretch to think that a sliding stroke couldn't be as > fluid as with a GP. With a GP your hand needs to open up, with a euro > it doesn't. A barely perceptible cocking of the wrist takes care of > the feathering, and you just let the shaft slide. I guess it depends > on what you consider fluid, but you seem to suggest the euro sliding > stroke is as graceful as a pig on rollerskates. As with the GP, with > practice it is very fluid and effortless. Sure it takes practice, but > it does with a GP as well. > Nick > -- > Nick Schade I tend to side with Nick with no disrespect to the GP school of thought. Another powerful way of using what is already a powerful paddle, i.e. the Europaddle, is to switch modes between touring mode and power mode...and it does not involve sliding. The normal touring mode with an EP is one in which (without getting into elaborate details of the stroke) you are doing body rotation etc. with the paddle being basically rotated around a pivot point about a comfortable bent arm distance in front of you (again a simplification...I know a lot more is going on). That touring mode stroke can be maintained forever with little strength and stamina needed. The power mode is one in which the arms are kept fairly stiff and only slightly bent if at all. The paddle is then driven into and through the water. It is a powerful stroke that resembles what racers do. It is hard to maintain for long unless you are in top conditions (they are) but it will power you out any jam. ralph diaz *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Nick Schade <schade_at_guillemot-kayaks.com> wrote: >Why is it a stretch to think that a sliding stroke couldn't be as fluid as with a GP. With a GP your hand needs to open up, with a euro it doesn't. A barely perceptible cocking of the wrist takes care of the feathering, and you just let the shaft slide. Barely perceptible, but it's still there. Just like arguing that the Euro doesn't need the sliding stroke for a powerful bite (like they're used in whitewater). The sliding stroke with a GP is barely perceptible, but still used for a big, powerful stroke. Barely perceptible to one is conspicuous and annoying to another. Feathering messes with the sliding stroke. Plain and simple. You slide the shaft, and lose your indexing. I'd agree 100% that a sliding stroke with an unfeathered Euro is as fluid as with a GP. But that's really more of a chapter for the feathered vs. unfeathered debate. :) Shawn __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! News - Today's headlines http://news.yahoo.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 8:03 AM -0700 9/18/02, Shawn Baker wrote: >Nick Schade <schade_at_guillemot-kayaks.com> wrote: >>Why is it a stretch to think that a sliding stroke couldn't be as >fluid as with a GP. With a GP your hand needs to open up, with a euro >it doesn't. A barely perceptible cocking of the wrist takes care of >the feathering, and you just let the shaft slide. > >Barely perceptible, but it's still there. > >Just like arguing that the Euro doesn't need the sliding stroke for a >powerful bite (like they're used in whitewater). The sliding stroke >with a GP is barely perceptible, but still used for a big, powerful >stroke. Barely perceptible to one is conspicuous and annoying to >another. > >Feathering messes with the sliding stroke. Plain and simple. You >slide the shaft, and lose your indexing. I'd agree 100% that a sliding >stroke with an unfeathered Euro is as fluid as with a GP. > >But that's really more of a chapter for the feathered vs. unfeathered >debate. :) I find it funny how up tight people get about feathering. Uh, horrors, you need to cock your wrist! Yes, it is there, no doubt. Yet, with a sliding stroke on a greenland paddle, you must open your hand substantially to accomplish the sliding stroke. You start with the hand where the shaft is roughly 1" in diameter, some times with the depth greater than the width, and you end up with the hand on a 4" wide section of the blade. This involves a large change in how you hold your hand (and no small amount of cocking of the wrist). I am well aware that this change seems "natural" to people who have practiced. But it is natural because they practiced, it is not natural by virtue of some "gift-from-god". Yes, with a feathered paddle, you need to cock your wrist. With practice it is "natural", it comes easily, you can do it without thought, your hands know where they need to be. I don't see how this is any harder than changing your grip from one inch wide to 4 inches wide. It is something you learn to do and with experience is so easy there is no reason to make an issue about it. -- Nick Schade Guillemot Kayaks 824 Thompson St Glastonbury, CT 06033 (860) 659-8847 *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Shawn Baker wrote: >>it's not a true reflexive brace if your hard wiring doesn't tell >>you where the blade is. "Matt Broze" <mkayaks_at_oz.net> wrote: >I knew somebody might call me on this technicality, but for lack of coming up with a better term I used "reflexive" anyway. It's pretty much common in the kayaking lexicon. Maybe it doesn't quite jive with the actual biological description, but I think we can safely assume it's part of our industry jargon. > "reflex like" because the brace has become such a well polished habit and requires little in the way on conscious thought to apply it (much like a reflex). This makes it much quicker than having to analyze the situation (including which feather angle that you earlier chose to use today) and making a conscious decision as what is best to do each time. You've said it better than I. >I think we have come upon another one of those "religious" debates in paddling. Ain't it grand?! :) Shawn __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! News - Today's headlines http://news.yahoo.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Let me see if I can address some of the issues brought forth by the esteemed gentlemen Nick, Ralph, Matt and Jim. Nick Writes: "The reason to do a sliding stroke is to get more power out of a single stroke. You state that this is sometimes required for the paddle to get out of a jam. However, the typical euro paddle has this power without the need for a sliding stroke. They are used in whitewater after all. If a sliding stroke is needed, it would be hoped that it does it well. But if it is not needed, it is still beneficial if it is possible." I completely agree that a GP needs a sliding stroke to become as propulsive as a decent "euro" blade. One of the reasons to do a sliding stroke is to develop hull speed, but there are other benefits such as lowering the winds effects to the blade. It's a technique that is available to do if one needs to, as Ralph asked, have the power available to get out of a jam. I think the perception is that they cannot. They can very easily and due to the nature of a sliding stroke and the blade's overall lower profile are in my sincere and humbly offered opinion, less susceptible to wind. Sliding strokes are used all the time, however. They are used for subtle course correction, resistance to weathercocking, extending a brace, sculling, etc. Sliding is probably the simplest technique to learn in the Greenland repetoire. Heck, I didn't even learn to rub my tummy counterclockwise and the top of my head clockwise until I was at least 30! Matt writes: "GP downsides-can't wear pogies and move your hand around on the blade. How does one do a sliding stroke if you've wrapped a line around the blade to act as a drip ring?" No sir, one may not wear pogies. I wear 2 mil neoprene gloves when the water goes below 50 degrees and have no problems other than taking longer to open a ziplock bag with my snacks in it. The drip ring some use is often parachute cord (1/8th to 1/4 inch) and is barely a bump along the way up and down the blade. Ralph writes: "Another powerful way of using what is already a powerful paddle, i.e. the Europaddle, is to switch modes between touring mode and power mode...and it does not involve sliding. The normal touring mode with an EP is one in which (without getting into elaborate details of the stroke) you are doing body rotation etc. with the paddle being basically rotated around a pivot point about a comfortable bent arm distance in front of you (again a simplification...I know a lot more is going on). That touring mode stroke can be maintained forever with little strength and stamina needed. The power mode is one in which the arms are kept fairly stiff and only slightly bent if at all. The paddle is then driven into and through the water. It is a powerful stroke that resembles what racers do. It is hard to maintain for long unless you are in top conditions (they are) but it will power you out any jam." It's the same thing with a GP, standard and sliding stroke. One paddle, multiple techniques to overcome the challenges of the immediate environment. Ironically, it has the same downside: It's hard to maintain the propulsive sliding stroke for a long time as it requires some effort. A deeply planted paddle with the length of blade of a GP requires good effort to maintain. Nick writes: "Why is it a stretch to think that a sliding stroke couldn't be as fluid as with a GP. With a GP your hand needs to open up, with a euro it doesn't. A barely perceptible cocking of the wrist takes care of the feathering, and you just let the shaft slide. I guess it depends on what you consider fluid, but you seem to suggest the euro sliding stroke is as graceful as a pig on rollerskates. As with the GP, with practice it is very fluid and effortless. Sure it takes practice, but it does with a GP as well." I would suggest, be they round, oval or popcicle shafted a paddlers hands need only open up to the degree necessary to allow the paddle to pass to its intended place. I don't believe a GP users hands open up at risk beyond a round or oval shaft as they are still only passing along the edge, a substantial edge that offers excellent indexing and control. I will work on a "euro" sliding stroke, sometime in the next few days to see if I progress from my rollerskates to the realm of fluidity! Jim writes: "...and what I think my stroke does might not be proved by scientific analysis." Unfortunately, I doubt we'll ever peel open National Geographic, Discover or Popular Science and see "Euro Paddles Have It All Over GP's, See Page 3." I think our choice in tools reflects alot of things about our personal taste and learning environment and our adaptation to the conditions we paddle in. Perhaps Matt's choice of words is apropos, "I think we have come upon another one of those "religious" debates in paddling." Until the definitive studies by a blue ribbon panel of experts conclude, we're all we have for evidence, one paddle for another! Paddle well, Rob G *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Shawn wrote: >>But that's really more of a chapter for the feathered vs. unfeathered >>debate. :) Nick wrote: >I find it funny how up tight people get about feathering. Uh, >horrors, you need to cock your wrist! Yes, it is there, no doubt. You cock your wrist with an extended paddle stroke? Doing an extended paddle stroke with a feathered paddle feels funny, because you lose your indexing reference when you're putting the opposite blade in the desired position in the water. My point is that feathered paddles really don't lend themselves well to extended paddle strokes. Unless you're using a 90* or 0* offset...in which the inboard blade pretty much tells you exactly what the outboard blade is doing. Personally, I have no problem with feathered paddles. My Euros are feathered, and they never give me any grief. I do tend to cock my forearm rather than my wrist, as cocking my wrist repeatedly makes it sore. I just don't tend to extend them, as it's not worth the hassle involved. If I understood your previous point correctly, you stated that the benefits of an extended paddle stroke aren't the sole provence of Greenland paddles. I agree. You can extend a Euro paddle. I agree. With a feathered Euro paddle, extended strokes just get a little too sloppy. You have to start watching what the paddle blade is doing, rather then being able to rely on reflex and the tacticle feedback of your inboard blade. I think the benefits are hard pressed to overcome the drawbacks. Shawn __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! http://sbc.yahoo.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
--- Shawn Baker <shawnkayak_at_yahoo.com> wrote: > Shawn wrote: > Unless you're using a 90* or 0* > offset...in which the inboard > blade pretty much tells you exactly what the > outboard blade is doing. Not so sure about this one. I think many paddlers let the paddle slip in their non control hand, orienting it only with the indexing of their control hand. That would seem to indicate that the angle of their blades are pretty hardwired into their brain, whether that angle is 30, 45, 60 or whatever. Every stroke they place is based on that angle. Why would that be limited to 0 and 90 degrees? > With a feathered Euro paddle, extended strokes just > get a little too > sloppy. You have to start watching what the paddle > blade is doing, > rather then being able to rely on reflex and the > tacticle feedback of > your inboard blade. I have used extended strokes a good bit in squirt boating. I won't clain ANY of my strokes are fluid or precise, but I have watched some of the "founding fathers" of squirtboating use VERY precise extended paddle strokes with a 40 or 45 degree feather paddle. Their skills were levels of magnitude above mine, but they were certainly precise and fluid. To be fair I must say the they were using one stroke on one side for a particular move rather than using it for power in a forward stroke. To my untrained eye it looked like when they needed more power forward they usually just bumped up the stroke rate. Pete __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! http://sbc.yahoo.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 8:33 AM -0700 9/19/02, Shawn Baker wrote: >Shawn wrote: >>>But that's really more of a chapter for the feathered vs. unfeathered >>>debate. :) > >Nick wrote: >>I find it funny how up tight people get about feathering. Uh, >>horrors, you need to cock your wrist! Yes, it is there, no doubt. > >You cock your wrist with an extended paddle stroke? > Yes. I do a sliding stroke with a EP exactly like a non-sliding (fixed) stroke, I just add the slide. This makes it so I don't loose any of the indexing I get from the shape of the shaft. Therefore if the indexing is sufficient for a fixed stroke it should still be sufficient if you slide it. This of course doesn't work if you have one of those cheap EPs with the little index taped on just in the grip area. And if you want, you can also slide up to where you feel the blade where you can use the blade as an index. -- Nick Schade Guillemot Kayaks 824 Thompson St Glastonbury, CT 06033 (860) 659-8847 *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
--- Peter Staehling <staehpj1_at_yahoo.com> wrote: > --- Shawn Baker <shawnkayak_at_yahoo.com> wrote: > > Shawn wrote: > > Unless you're using a 90* or 0* > > offset...in which the inboard > > blade pretty much tells you exactly what the > > outboard blade is doing. > > Not so sure about this one. I think many paddlers let > the paddle slip in their non control hand, orienting > it only with the indexing of their control hand. That > would seem to indicate that the angle of their blades > are pretty hardwired into their brain, whether that > angle is 30, 45, 60 or whatever. Every stroke they > place is based on that angle. Why would that be > limited to 0 and 90 degrees? I'm limiting my comments to extended strokes (and have in this thread)...not to be confused with an altogether anti-feathered argument. I still have and love my feathered paddles. Because...if you're really doing an extended stroke, even your "control" hand moves on the paddle shaft, and you lose the indexing your control hand is used to. With a true extended stroke (with a feathered paddle), your control hand ends up where your other hand was, and indexing is lost. > I have used extended strokes a good bit in squirt > boating. Didn't know you were a squirt boater--wow! I'll have to ask you about it more sometime. > I won't clain ANY of my strokes are fluid or > precise, but I have watched some of the "founding > fathers" of squirtboating use VERY precise extended > paddle strokes with a 40 or 45 degree feather paddle. But to be fair, we're talking about some very advanced and dedicated people who probably spend more waking hours in their tiny boats than out of them. I think most of us average mortals get confused extending feathered paddles--especially since holding a feathered blade on the right side is different from the left. Like you said, too, when more speed is needed with an EP, stroke rate is increased. It's cumbersome to use an extended paddle for more speed with a feathred EP...so most people don't do it. I'm not saying EP's are bad. I'm not saying feathered is bad. I'm not saying you can't extend an EP. I'm not saying GP is the only way to go. Just saying that extending a feathered EP is too quirky to be of much regular use. Shawn __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! http://sbc.yahoo.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
This archive was generated by hypermail 2.4.0 : Thu Aug 21 2025 - 16:33:31 PDT