In a message dated 11/5/2002 11:09:17 PM Eastern Standard Time, mkayaks_at_oz.net writes: > ... I point this out in case anyone out there would like to work on > designing sponsons that might work better than any presently available but > is concerned about patent claims and might need some “prior art” to > invalidate even the legitimate claims of overzealous promoters who might > try to claim that kayak sponsons are “patented” by them when in fact the > specificity of the patent claims limits it considerably. ... In a message dated 11/6/2002 5:40:57 AM Eastern Standard Time, rebyl_kayak_at_iprimus.com.au writes: > ... Earliest documented use of sponsons might be for the film "Cockle Shell > Heroes" made in 1955. ... More potential "prior art": Page 139 of the 1998 second edition of "Alone at Sea", a translation of Dr. Hannes Lindemann's account of his two transatlantic drifts (the first in 1955 in a dugout, the second in 1956 in a stock Klepper folding double kayak), shows Captain Franz Romer's Klepper folder, purpose built for a 1928 Atlantic crossing. On the starboard side (the port side being out of view) one can see a fabric tube, about one-third of the length of the boat, strapped to the side of the gunwale. It looks as though it is either inflated or might contain kapok or similar floatation. Since the boat was not equipped with internal sponsons (a later Klepper addition), I reckon that the likelihood of this being an early example of external sponsons is pretty high. Page 41 of "Der Hadernkahn" (a pictorial history of folding boats beginning in the final years of the nineteenth century) shows the same boat afloat in the port of Lisbon April 17, 1928, just prior to departure. Again the shot is of the starboard side only, but since the boat appears to be heading out to sea, there is little chance that this canvass sausage was only in place as a dock fender ... Capt. Romer made it to St. Thomas (Haiti), but was lost in a hurricane during his onward journey to New York. I can't decide whether that speaks for or against the usefulness of sponsons. On the other hand, the same book depicts on page 64 a folding boat reconnaissance mission of the west coast of Spitsbergen in 1935. Three men in oil skins, southwesters and notably lacking PFDs, are shown during a break from their "work" on the rocky beach with their three individual singles, equipped with long shaft side-mounted "Sachs" (later Fichtel & Sachs) outboards. The boats have no sponsons, neither internal nor external. Another shot in "Der Hadernkahn", this one from 1958, shows two Greenland style folders connected side-by-side by means of what looks like Birch branches, and rigged with a simple square sail for a lake crossing. Fridtjof Nansen's (pre Cockle Shell) use of skin-on-frame kayaks in this way is claimed as the inspiration for this contraption. Again no sponsons, but plenty of stability for use of the bucket nonetheless. Best regards, Ralph Ralph C. Hoehn Ralph_at_Atlatl-Kayaks.com / Ralph_at_PouchBoats.com www.Atlatl-Kayaks.com / www.PouchBoats.com phone: +1-203-324-0901 *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Ralph Hoehn wrote: > More potential "prior art": [...] > Capt. Romer made it to St. Thomas (Haiti), but was lost in a > hurricane during his onward journey to New York. I can't decide whether that > speaks for or against the usefulness of sponsons. Well, his disappearance in the hurricane might rather be a factor of the outboarder he used - thus reducing the seaworthiness of his craft. But this is just another guess since neither him nor his boat were ever found again. For even more "prior sponson art" see the following page: http://home.t-online.de/home/derpoly/mehrrumpfboote.html#kenterschlaeuche The pictures are taken from a 1938 magazine, showing sailing folding boats, equipped with external sponsons. The text says that external sponsons were widely used in the 1930's but were not liked by the more "capable" paddlers. You can scroll up and down that page to get an impression of classic and modern catamarans and outriggers used with folding kayaks. During a folding kayak meeting, I saw an older (without internal sponsons) Klepper model having devices to add sponsons to the outside of the hull. These looked professional so I guess one could order a Klepper boat with sponson devices already on place. Cheers, Marian -- Marian Gunkel, Berlin, Germany http://www.mariangunkel.de *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Ralph Hoehn wrote: > Capt. Romer made it to St. Thomas (Haiti), but was lost in a > hurricane during his onward journey to New York. I can't decide >whether that speaks for or against the usefulness of sponsons. Marian Gunkel wrote >For even more "prior sponson art" see the following page: >http://home.t-online.de/home/derpoly/mehrrumpfboote.html#kenterschlaeuche, >The pictures are taken from a 1938 magazine, showing sailing folding >boats, equipped with external sponsons. G'Day Ralph, Marian and Paddlewise, Nice pictures and I have to concede, they look as convincing as those in the film Cockle Shell Hero's, so the actor Trevor Howard wasn't the first 'kayaker' to use sponsons! Now question is whether Noah was known to use them:~) All the best, PeterO *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
PeterO wrote: > Ralph Hoehn wrote: > >>Capt. Romer made it to St. Thomas (Haiti), but was lost in a >>hurricane during his onward journey to New York. I can't decide >>whether that speaks for or against the usefulness of sponsons. > > > Marian Gunkel wrote > >>For even more "prior sponson art" see the following page: >>http://home.t-online.de/home/derpoly/mehrrumpfboote.html#kenterschlaeuche, >>The pictures are taken from a 1938 magazine, showing sailing folding >>boats, equipped with external sponsons. This old link is dead. Does anyone know where I can find info about he 1938 spittoons? I am thinking about a little project, and the orignal references might come in handy. GaryJ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Before Cockle Shell Spittoons > > > >>Capt. Romer made it to St. Thomas (Haiti), but was lost in a > >>hurricane during his onward journey to New York. I can't decide > >>whether that speaks for or against the usefulness of sponsons. > > Sssssshhhh!!! If you haven't noticed, TI is infesting rec.boats again.... *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Joseph Pylka wrote: > Sssssshhhh!!! If you haven't noticed, TI is infesting rec.boats again.... I didn't know that. Maybe that makes this all the more important. http://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/pac/mpep/documents/1900_1920.htm#sect1920 *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
BCU coaches: Can someone explain to me the SMARTER teaching module / method? Mike Mike Hamilton, Biologist 1205 Leonardtown Service Bldg University of Maryland College Park, MD 20742 301-314-3486 *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 12:41 PM -0500 2/23/04, Gary J. MacDonald wrote: >>Marian Gunkel wrote >>>For even more "prior sp*ns*n art" see the following page: >>>http://home.t-online.de/home/derpoly/mehrrumpfboote.html#kenterschlaeuche, >>>The pictures are taken from a 1938 magazine, showing sailing folding >>>boats, equipped with external sp*ns*ns. > >This old link is dead. > >Does anyone know where I can find info about he 1938 spittoons? I checked the internet archive <http:www.archive.org>. It contains several versions of this page, although not all the images are present: <http://tinyurl.com/2d6lz> Brian *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Brian Curtiss wrote: > I checked the internet archive <http:www.archive.org>. It contains > several versions of this page, although not all the images are present: > > <http://tinyurl.com/2d6lz> Thanks! And a new service for me to hunt around in! GaryJ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Problem was: > >>>For even more "prior sp*ns*n art" see the following page: > >>>http://home.t-online.de/home/derpoly/mehrrumpfboote.html#kenterschlaeuche , > >>>The pictures are taken from a 1938 magazine, showing sailing folding > >>>boats, equipped with external sp*ns*ns. > > > >This old link is dead. I know the owner of the side and asked him what was going on. He had concenrate all his sides on another server, which was marked under "Akuelles", of course not in english.. side has moved to: http://privat.t-online.de/home/derpoly/mehrrumpfboote.html#kenterschlaeuche Hope it4ll work now. All the Best Jochen *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Here's an interesting message from Tony Ford of the Historical Canoe and Kayak Association under the above subject line, which he did not send publicly by omission: In a message dated 11/11/2002 4:58:15 PM Eastern Standard Time, tford_at_web.de writes: > I was contacted about 8 years ago by the British Ministry of Defence about > sponsons. Someone, who remains nameless to me, wanted to put one across > the British Forces, saying he had the patent for sponsons, and I was asked > my opinion. My reply was that sponsons, like outriggers were a product of > R&D over perhaps 10000 years, and that such devices were used not only by > the British Forces in folding boats, but in aluminium sectional boats of > World War II. ... for what it's worth ... :-)) Best regards, Ralph Ralph C. Hoehn Ralph_at_Atlatl-Kayaks.com / Ralph_at_PouchBoats.com www.Atlatl-Kayaks.com / www.PouchBoats.com phone: +1-203-324-0901 *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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