I think there is a wealth of experience and knowledge in the PW group so hopefully you can all shed some light on this... In general, what is your opinion of the stitch-n-glue wood/fiberglass kayaks? I'm thinking of boats from kits like those from CLC or Pygmy. I believe these are the two largest producers of such kits, but there are others. In addition to the general "what is your overall opinion" question, here are a couple of specifics: 1) the kits seem to weigh in 10-15% lighter than a typical all fiberglass boat. Is this due to less overall strength or lighter materials (the lightweight wood core rather than solid layers of fiberglass)? 2) as a 250 lb paddler, I'm concerned about the strength of the boats - in particular the deck. I once tried on someones wooden boat - and when I (gently) planted my backside on the deck just behind the coaming in order to slide into the cockpit, there was a distinct creaking/crunching sound from the deck...the guy said it was nothing but I still wonder if that type of construction would handle my less than gentle paddle-float recoveries on the back deck. For someone who enjoys woodworking, these seem to be a great way to get a lightweight, custom boat for about 1/2 or 1/3 of the cost of a fiberglass boat (plus the labor...but I see this as a welcome winter diversion). As someone with smaller children, the idea of building a triple sounds like a way to share the sport with them - and increase the amount of time spent paddling. You also frequently hear the advice that a double or a triple on group trips is a great safety tool in terms of hauling an incapacitated or weak paddlers. Thanks in advance for your opinions, Keith *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
As a 230 pound paddler of a CLC 18' Chesapeake that I built two years ago:. > 1) the kits seem to weigh in 10-15% lighter than a typical all fiberglass > boat. Is this due to less overall strength or lighter materials (the > lightweight wood core rather than solid layers of fiberglass)? The wood core is lighter than fiberglass. However, unless you are experienced in using epoxy your first boat will probably weigh ~ 5 pounds more than the advertised weight due to inefficient use of epoxy. The wood may be more prone to puncture type of damage, but otherwise appears to stand up to anything a fiberglass boat would endure. > > 2) as a 250 lb paddler, I'm concerned about the strength of the boats - in > particular the deck. I once tried on someones wooden boat - and when I > (gently) planted my backside on the deck just behind the coaming in order > to slide into the cockpit, there was a distinct creaking/crunching sound > from the deck...the guy said it was nothing but I still wonder if that type > of construction would handle my less than gentle paddle-float recoveries on > the back deck. The back deck of my 18' boat is one piece of plywood bent in an arch. It is quite strong. There is a bulkhead right behind the seat that helps support that area. The area of the rear deck around where the hatch is cut out is not as strong, but has proven strong enough for general use. There is a thin rib on each side of the hatch that goes from gunwale to gunwale. Of course with a home built strength depends on the abilities of the builder. I made sure the bulkhead had generous fillets where it meets the deck and hull. I don't get creaks and groans from the kayak. One of the beauties of wood kayaks is that you can modify them to meet your needs. If you are really worried about the rear deck you can add a couple of stringers, or add fiberglass tape to the joints when you put in the rear bulkhead. > > For someone who enjoys woodworking, these seem to be a great way to get a > lightweight, custom boat for about 1/2 or 1/3 of the cost of a fiberglass > boat (plus the labor...but I see this as a welcome winter diversion). As > someone with smaller children, the idea of building a triple sounds like a One issue of building these in the winter is the epoxy fumes. The epoxy likes temperatures in the 50's or above. Especially with children in the house, building is usually relegated to the garage. You need a space ~ 22' long by 10' wide I had planned to build mine in the basement but got relegated to the garage due to the smell of the epoxy. I then had to wait until the garage warmed up to proceed. I thoroughly enjoyed building my boat and the comments that I get when I paddle. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> >One issue of building these in the winter is the epoxy fumes. I thought the new epoxies were more or less 'fumeless' - that the sanding dust is the problem? I know with the older fiberglass resins were a stinky lot to say the least. Keith *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Keith Wrage wrote: >> >> One issue of building these in the winter is the epoxy fumes. > > > I thought the new epoxies were more or less 'fumeless' - that the > sanding dust is the problem? I know with the older fiberglass resins > were a stinky lot to say the least. > > Keith Epoxies are pretty much nondescript in odors unlike the polyester resins extensively used in industry. sanding dust is a consideration especially in dealing with fiberglass- this breaks up into very fine, very sharp particulates. as someone mentioned before, temperature is critical in epoxy work, especially useful in accelerating or retarding set times if you have a very good control thermostats. It is reccommended practice to apply the initial waterproofing coat on wood as the temperature is decreasing to reduce orange peeling on the surface. Cooling will also aid in the absorbtion. It is tradition in wooden boatbuilding to apply it in late afternoon to take advantage of natural cooling. -- gabriel l romeu ± http://studiofurniture.com Ø http://journalphoto.org ± ± http://kayakoutfitting.org Ø http://furnituresociety.org ± *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 05:27 PM 2/28/2003 -0500, gabriel romeu wrote: >Keith Wrage wrote: > >>> >>> One issue of building these in the winter is the epoxy fumes. >> >> >> I thought the new epoxies were more or less 'fumeless' - that the >> sanding dust is the problem? I know with the older fiberglass resins >> were a stinky lot to say the least. >> >> Keith > >Epoxies are pretty much nondescript in odors unlike the polyester resins >extensively used in industry. sanding dust is a consideration >especially in dealing with fiberglass- this breaks up into very fine, >very sharp particulates. >as someone mentioned before, Many of the fillers like micro-baloons and cabosil are also very nasty. It is strongly recommended that respirator be worn while mixing the epoxy with fillers and of course that rubber gloves are worn during mixing and application of the epoxy resin. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> In general, what is your opinion of the stitch-n-glue wood/fiberglass > kayaks? I'm thinking of boats from kits like those from CLC or Pygmy. I > believe these are the two largest producers of such kits, but there are > others. I built a Chesapeake 17. I love it. It's fast, comfortable, and it holds a lot of stuff. It's also rather wide - 24" - and, from what I hear, harder to roll than a sleeker boat. I looked at Pygmies. I think they are also excellent boats. I opted for the Chesapeake for a couple of reasons. 1) Their kayaks come with bulkheads. Pygmies don't. The standard method is to use a sea sock. They sell bulkheads as extras, which cost extra money. Also Pygmies have pointed, angular decks. Chesapeakes have a nice arched deck. I don't know why, but the curved deck appeals to me more. > 1) the kits seem to weigh in 10-15% lighter than a typical all fiberglass > boat. Is this due to less overall strength or lighter materials (the > lightweight wood core rather than solid layers of fiberglass)? Check out Vaclav's page on wood core construction - http://www.oneoceankayaks.com/Woodcore.htm. He's talking about strip-built boats, but I think okoume plywood boats are even a little stronger. > > 2) as a 250 lb paddler, I'm concerned about the strength of the boats - in > particular the deck. I once tried on someones wooden boat - and when I > (gently) planted my backside on the deck just behind the coaming in order > to slide into the cockpit, there was a distinct creaking/crunching sound > from the deck...the guy said it was nothing but I still wonder if that type > of construction would handle my less than gentle paddle-float recoveries on > the back deck. I weigh around 205. I was concerned about this as well. As someone already mentioned, there's a strong bulkhead right behind the cockpit which will take a lot of weight. I agree with the other person, that you should use fiberglass tape on that bulkhead's seams; not just epoxy putty. It only adds a tiny bit of extra weight and it's about as easy as it gets. > For someone who enjoys woodworking, these seem to be a great way to get a > lightweight, custom boat for about 1/2 or 1/3 of the cost of a fiberglass > boat (plus the labor...but I see this as a welcome winter diversion). You said it! On the weight issue: 1) Most first time stitch and glue builders (myself included) don't end up with a boat as lightweight as advertised, but mine is only over by 5 pounds or so. 2) Weight isn't that much of an issue when you get it in the water. I typically load many pounds of junk when I go paddling. I don't find that it slows me down. Even when I carried several days worth of provisions, including fresh water, I didn't feel that the weight slowed me down. The time when weight seems to be undesirable is when you have to carry your boat, and especially when you have to lift it to the roof of your car (or van in my case.) As a large 205 man, I don't have any trouble with my Chesapeake 17, and I'll bet at 250 pounds you would be fine lifting a kayak that would be difficult for smaller person. One of the many benefits of building your own boat is that you can modify its design to suit your own needs. I think commercial boats have to be compromises. They can't possibly offer a line of boats with sizes, weights, configurations, etc. to accomodate the desires of all paddlers. When you build your own boat you can make it exactly what you need. If you are concerned about cracking the glass on the deck when you put your weight not-so-gently on it during a paddle float rescue, you can add extra strength to that area, and it's really easy! As for it being a welcome winter diversion, absolutely! But watch out! It tends to become a year-round obsession. Look at the web pages of some of the people whose names you see on the bulletin boards associated with wooden boats, (like the Guillemot Kayak Forum http://www.kayakforum.com/cgi-bin/Building/index.cgi, or the Chesapeake Light Craft bulletin board http://www.clcboats.com/). You'll find that many of them have built two or three or more boats. Right now I'm in the middle of a new project. I've joined the ranks of those who have built a stitch and glue, and now want to build a stripper. I'm building a Guillemot for my wife. When I finish this my daughter wants one. Then my son wants a Wee Lassie. I'm enjoying the project, but we've had many beautiful weekends here in central California during the past few months. Do you think I've been out on the water paddling? No. I've been in my garage working on the boat! >As > someone with smaller children, the idea of building a triple sounds like a > way to share the sport with them - and increase the amount of time spent > paddling. You also frequently hear the advice that a double or a triple on > group trips is a great safety tool in terms of hauling an incapacitated or > weak paddlers. A triple sounds like a great project. My kids aren't as gung-ho about paddling yet as I'd like. My soon-to-be-15-year-old daughter thinks I should build a triple, so my wife and I can paddle, and she can sit and relax in the middle like the princess she imagines herself to be! Best, Gordon Snapp http://webpages.charter.net/grsnapp/guillemotbuilding.htm *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. 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At 04:38 PM 2/28/2003 -0600, Gordon Snapp wrote: >> In general, what is your opinion of the stitch-n-glue wood/fiberglass >> kayaks? I'm thinking of boats from kits like those from CLC or Pygmy. I >> believe these are the two largest producers of such kits, but there are >> others. > >I built a Chesapeake 17. I love it. It's fast, comfortable, and it holds a >lot of stuff. It's also rather wide - 24" - and, from what I hear, harder >to roll than a sleeker boat. > >I looked at Pygmies. I think they are also excellent boats. I opted for >the Chesapeake for a couple of reasons. 1) Their kayaks come with >bulkheads. Pygmies don't. I'm not sure where you heard that. I have a friend that built a Coho and another that built an Arctic Tern and an Osprey. All three came with bulkheads, and in fact, the bulkheads are an important piece in how they are constructed. On the other hand, at least a couple of years ago a forward bulkhead was an extra option on a CLC Northbay (when I built one) . >The standard method is to use a sea sock. They >sell bulkheads as extras, which cost extra money. Also Pygmies have >pointed, angular decks. Chesapeakes have a nice arched deck. I don't know >why, but the curved deck appeals to me more. Certainly when considering a wood boat asthetics are very important. > >> 1) the kits seem to weigh in 10-15% lighter than a typical all fiberglass >> boat. Is this due to less overall strength or lighter materials (the >> lightweight wood core rather than solid layers of fiberglass)? > >Check out Vaclav's page on wood core construction - >http://www.oneoceankayaks.com/Woodcore.htm. He's talking about strip-built >boats, but I think okoume plywood boats are even a little stronger. Again, I'm not sure where you came up with that conclusion. Strip built boats are constructed with a fiberglass-wood core- fiberglass sandwhich whereas stitch-n-glue boats typically only have fiberglass cloth on the hull, or may have some areas where there is cloth on both sides. The sandwhich construction gives the shell a great amount of strength. >> >> 2) as a 250 lb paddler, I'm concerned about the strength of the boats - in >> particular the deck. I once tried on someones wooden boat - and when I >> (gently) planted my backside on the deck just behind the coaming in order >> to slide into the cockpit, there was a distinct creaking/crunching sound >> from the deck...the guy said it was nothing but I still wonder if that >type >> of construction would handle my less than gentle paddle-float recoveries >on >> the back deck. > >I weigh around 205. I was concerned about this as well. As someone already >mentioned, there's a strong bulkhead right behind the cockpit which will >take a lot of weight. I agree with the other person, that you should use >fiberglass tape on that bulkhead's seams; not just epoxy putty. It only >adds a tiny bit of extra weight and it's about as easy as it gets. A lot of people will add an extra layer of cloth around the cockpit area for extra strength and/or build in extra deck beams. I know that this is a concern but I've never ever actually heard of anyone that his caused a failure in the deck during a paddlefloat. From what I've heard most people building Pygmy or CLC kits tend to overbuild their boats. > >> For someone who enjoys woodworking, these seem to be a great way to get a >> lightweight, custom boat for about 1/2 or 1/3 of the cost of a fiberglass >> boat (plus the labor...but I see this as a welcome winter diversion). Make sure to factor in the cost of any tools you might need, sandpaper, varnish, etc. These items add up. >One of the many benefits of building your own boat is that you can modify >its design to suit your own needs. I think commercial boats have to be >compromises. They can't possibly offer a line of boats with sizes, weights, >configurations, etc. to accomodate the desires of all paddlers. When you >build your own boat you can make it exactly what you need. If you are >concerned about cracking the glass on the deck when you put your weight >not-so-gently on it during a paddle float rescue, you can add extra strength >to that area, and it's really easy! In my mind, that is the biggest advantage (along with the asthetic qualities of wood). It's also nice to know that once you've built a boat that you'll have the skills you need to maintain it. >Right now I'm in the middle of a new project. I've joined the ranks of >those who have built a stitch and glue, and now want to build a stripper. >I'm building a Guillemot for my wife. Good luck on the stripper. I also built a S&G boat first then built a cedar strip boat (Jay Babina's Outer Island) (see http://caddis.mannlib.cornell.edu/paddle/outerisland). As you may be finding out, one of the things that I liked about the cedar strip building process was that as you start adding strips the boat slowly takes shape, something I found more pleasing than how the S&G panels are wired together as if building a large model. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Keith Wrage <keith.wrage_at_charter.net> wrote: >One issue of building these in the winter is the epoxy fumes. >> I thought the new epoxies were more or less 'fumeless' - that the sanding dust is the problem? I know with the older fiberglass resins were a stinky lot to say the least. >> Newer epoxy resins certainly are less obnoxious to the human nose. Nonetheless, Melissa's extra care of wearing a "respirator" may be good advice, inasmuch as there is still some volatility and that __may__ lead to sensitization [as can sanding not-fully-cured epoxy without protection]. In addition, skin contact is a well-documented cause of sensitization. Sensitization is a highly individual thing, although the anecdotal evidence supports the idea that continued exposure enhances the risk of sensitization. In the distant past, I was sloppy with my technique, and many times got uncured resin on my hands. Not since 1998, though. I always glove up. And when I sand, I always use a serious particle filter mask -- even on "fully cured" resin. Once you are sensitized, your days of fabricating with epoxy are pretty much over. BTW, "respirator" has many different meanings. I assume Melissa refers to one of the canister-equipped face mask units that actually trap organic vapors, and that she keeps it in a sealed container between uses, and that she tosses the canister before it is used up. A simple dust mask is not enough. Melissa, care to elaborate on what you are using? Dana Dickson has some expertise here that may be worth hearing. Hope he speaks up. -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
The odor is not nearly as objectionable as the older products but harmful chemicals are still present in the air as the epoxy cures. MAS still recommends wearing a respirator, safety glasses, and gloves. Part of the key is how well ventilated is your workspace. A unventilated basement can result in rather high levels of fumes. You coat rather large areas with epoxy to seal the wood, wet out the fiberglass, and fill the fiberglass weave. I kept my overhead garage door open about 3 - 4 inches and didn't have much of a problem. I did not use a respirator and had no lung or throat irritation, YMMV. I did wear a nuisance dust mask during sanding operations and took great care to keep the epoxy off my skin. I still developed some sensitivity around my eyes, most likely from the sanding dust getting in through the vent holes in the goggles. ----- From: "Keith Wrage" <keith.wrage_at_charter.net> To: <paddleWise_at_paddlewise.net> Sent: Friday, February 28, 2003 1:07 PM Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] if not AL, how about wood? > > > >One issue of building these in the winter is the epoxy fumes. > > I thought the new epoxies were more or less 'fumeless' - that the sanding > dust is the problem? I know with the older fiberglass resins were a stinky > lot to say the least. > > Keith *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Gordon Snapp" <grsnapp_at_charter.net> wrote [comparing the CLC style deck to the Pygmy style deck]: >> I looked at Pygmies. I think they are also excellent boats. I opted for the Chesapeake for a couple of reasons. 1) Their kayaks come with bulkheads. Pygmies don't. The standard method is to use a sea sock. They sell bulkheads as extras, which cost extra money. Also Pygmies have pointed, angular decks. Chesapeakes have a nice arched deck. I don't know why, but the curved deck appeals to me more. >> I've paddled CLC boats a little and admired them a lot. Very sexy-looking. I've built a couple Pygmies, and paddled them extensively. The multi-paneled decks on Pygmies are stronger, I think, because of the chines. Both CLC and Pygmy avoid glass on the underside of their decks. I think that is a weak point. A guy who lives near me somehow crunched a hole through the rear deck of his CLC boat. Wish I knew what he had done, as even without glass on either surface, the plywood is pretty strong. All the Pygmies are glassed on top, and the ones I own seem pretty strong. I've done a lot of self-rescue over the rear deck of my single, and the deck is scratched, but shows no sign of failure. Certainly stronger and more rigid than my FG Eddyline boats over the rear deck. I agree the added cost of bulkheads for a Pygmy is annoying. On one boat, I put 'em in (a double), and am happy with how they turned out. On my small single (Osprey Std), I did not put in bulkheads, because I wanted a lighter boat. I never use a sea sock in it -- just flotation fore and aft. I own a sea sock, but did not like the confining effect. I don't think a sea sock is mandatory with Pygmy boats, although they advocate their use. If I surfed my Osprey Std, I would use it, though. -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
How much weight would a mini cell pillar add to a sea kayak? Something similar to what is in a WW kayak? Then again how much support would a pillar add? Why do men love to tweak things so much? Jim et al ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Fereira" <jaf30_at_cornell.edu> > >> 2) as a 250 lb paddler, I'm concerned about the strength of the boats - in > >> particular the deck. I once tried on someones wooden boat - and when I > >> (gently) planted my backside on the deck just behind the coaming in order > >> to slide into the cockpit, there was a distinct creaking/crunching sound > >> from the deck... > >I weigh around 205. I was concerned about this as well. As someone already > >mentioned, there's a strong bulkhead right behind the cockpit which will > >take a lot of weight. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
From: "John Fereira" <jaf30_at_cornell.edu> > I'm not sure where you heard that. I have a friend that built a Coho and > another that built an Arctic Tern and an Osprey. All three came with > bulkheads, and in fact, the bulkheads are an important piece in how they > are constructed. On the other hand, at least a couple of years ago a > forward bulkhead was an extra option on a CLC Northbay (when I built one) . I just checked the Pygmy web site. They sell a bulkhead and hatch kit for $59. It fits the Ospreys, Coho, Arctic Terns, and Goldeneyes. I'm assuming they wouldn't have to sell this kit if the items came with the boat kits. I also checked out CLC's Northbay page. It says it comes with bulkheads. Perhaps your friends who built those boats opted for the bulkhead kits. When I was considering which boat to build, I know the Pygmies I was looking at didn't come with bulkheads in the standard kit, and the CLC boats I considered did. In any event, I'm not stating these things as an "I'm right/you're wrong," kind of thing. Who cares? I only checked in case someone out there is facing the same choice I had to make - Pygmy or Chesapeake? (And by the way, I'm not saying that Chesapeakes are better. I actually think that Pygmies might be more "serious" kayaks. However, I think both are great deals when compared to a store-bought boat, and the added benefits of knowing you built it yourself, the beauty of the wood, and the feeling of having something a little different than most people are all plusses. And even though I said that the Pygmies may be a bit more "serious", I've paddled my fully-loaded Chesapeake on a couple of open-water crossings to the Channel Islands and back in some fairly rough weather, and it performed admirably.) >Check out Vaclav's page on wood core construction - >http://www.oneoceankayaks.com/Woodcore.htm. He's talking about strip-built >boats, but I think okoume plywood boats are even a little stronger. > Again, I'm not sure where you came up with that conclusion. Strip built > boats are constructed with a fiberglass-wood core- fiberglass sandwhich > whereas stitch-n-glue boats typically only have fiberglass cloth on the > hull, or may have some areas where there is cloth on both sides. The > sandwhich construction gives the shell a great amount of strength. My statement was based on my assumption that okoume plywood is a little stronger than a bunch of cedar (or in my case, redwood) strips held together by wood glue. I don't know that's true, I just think so. I'd be happy to hear definitively from someone who knows. However, your point is well taken. Strip built kayaks are usually glass inside and out. I think it's the fiberglass that gives the boat the most strength, so it seems that a sandwich of wood strips covered by fiberglass inside and out would be stronger than okoume plywood with glass on just one side (or neither side.) My Chesapeake only has glass on the outside of the hull, on the inside of the hull seams, and on the inside of the hull in the cockpit. There's none on the deck - just epoxy resin. So far, I haven't had any troubles with my boat being weak. I've made a couple of re-entries where I had to sit on the deck behind the cockpit. The deck seems to be holding up okay (although I did add a bit of extra structural support there when I was building it - more than the kit called for.) I just checked the CLC site, and it seems that the Chesapeake models now come with fiberglass on the outside of the deck. This used to be called the "Expedition" package, and cost extra. They now offer an Expedition package that includes glass on the inside of the hull. > Make sure to factor in the cost of any tools you might need, sandpaper, > varnish, etc. These items add up. Point well taken! I always say, "A new tool is really a good investment, because it will last forever." My wife looks at me funny. My UPS deliverer calls me "Package Boy". The folks at the hardware store and the lumberyard know my face well. However, the nice thing about this is that the expenses are spread out over time - there's not the one-time chunk of cash that a store-bought boat entails. > In my mind, that is the biggest advantage (along with the asthetic > qualities of wood). It's also nice to know that once you've built a boat > that you'll have the skills you need to maintain it. Very true! > As you may be > finding out, one of the things that I liked about the cedar strip building > process was that as you start adding strips the boat slowly takes shape, > something I found more pleasing than how the S&G panels are wired together > as if building a large model. > Hmm. This is one of the things that's a little frustrating for me. The progress on my stripper is very slow. I can't wait to finish it so my wife can come paddling with me, but it's looking like I'll be lucky to have it finished by summer. I agree though, it is pleasing to watch the shape work its way over the forms. I think the finished product will be quite a bit more aesthetically pleasing than the stitch and glue (though I still love my boat!) Thanks for writing! - Gordon Snapp *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). 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At 09:28 AM 3/2/2003 -0600, Gordon Snapp wrote: >From: "John Fereira" <jaf30_at_cornell.edu> >> I'm not sure where you heard that. I have a friend that built a Coho >and >> another that built an Arctic Tern and an Osprey. All three came with >> bulkheads, and in fact, the bulkheads are an important piece in how they >> are constructed. On the other hand, at least a couple of years ago a >> forward bulkhead was an extra option on a CLC Northbay (when I built one) >. > >I just checked the Pygmy web site. They sell a bulkhead and hatch kit for >$59. It fits the Ospreys, Coho, Arctic Terns, and Goldeneyes. I'm assuming >they wouldn't have to sell this kit if the items came with the boat kits. I >also checked out CLC's Northbay page. It says it comes with bulkheads. >Perhaps your friends who built those boats opted for the bulkhead kits. Possibly, but considering that the hatch kit is pretty inexpensive, while it may not "come with" the Pygmy boats as a standard option, it's easily available for a small additional cost. >When I was considering which boat to build, I know the Pygmies I was looking >at didn't come with bulkheads in the standard kit, and the CLC boats I >considered did. When I built my Northbay the front hatch kit was *not* part of the standard kit. Apparently so many people that ordered Northbays opted for the optional front hatch CLC decided to include it as standard. >(And by the way, I'm not saying that Chesapeakes are better. I actually >think that Pygmies might be more "serious" kayaks. I would suggest that it is the other way around. The Northbay (20" wide x 18'6" long) is a very serious kayak as is the Patuxent. I have found that the Pygmy boats on the other hand are generally more stable and higher volume, both qualities that one would associate with a model that is a bit "friendlier" to the less experienced paddler. When I was looking for a Greenland style boat to build I compared the Northbay with the Arctic Tern. I found the specifications on the Northbay to be much closer in line with a traditional Greenlanders boat. A 23" wide beam, as in the Tern would be considered massive by traditional Greenland standards. >>Check out Vaclav's page on wood core construction - > >>http://www.oneoceankayaks.com/Woodcore.htm. He's talking about strip-built >>boats, but I think okoume plywood boats are even a little stronger. > >> Again, I'm not sure where you came up with that conclusion. Strip built >> boats are constructed with a fiberglass-wood core- fiberglass sandwhich >> whereas stitch-n-glue boats typically only have fiberglass cloth on the >> hull, or may have some areas where there is cloth on both sides. The >> sandwhich construction gives the shell a great amount of strength. > >My statement was based on my assumption that okoume plywood is a little >stronger than a bunch of cedar (or in my case, redwood) strips held together >by wood glue. I don't know that's true, I just think so. I'd be happy to >hear definitively from someone who knows. Nick Schade's book has some real good information about the strength of the fiberglass/wood/fiberglass sandwich. The wood just isnt' going to separate at the glue joint once it's encapsulated in fiberglass and the wood core construction compares similarly to an I-beam used in building construction. > However, your point is well >taken. Strip built kayaks are usually glass inside and out. Usually? I don't think I've ever heard of an instance when they were not glassed inside and out. >I just checked the CLC site, and it seems that the Chesapeake models now >come with fiberglass on the outside of the deck. This used to be called the >"Expedition" package, and cost extra. They now offer an Expedition package >that includes glass on the inside of the hull. I think Melissa mentioned that this was how the CLC version of the Arctic Hawk was supposed to be constructer. (Come on, Melissa, hurry up and finish that boat...I want to hear how it handles). *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
One of the great things about the wood boats is that you can customize them for your use. You can add glass where the base boat doesn't have it, you can add wear strips, the cockpit size can be modified, rudders or skegs can be added, etc, etc. Most of us don't need all the extra glass and don't want the weight, but if you do, adding it isn't a big deal. CLC offers an option of more glass in many of their kits, I forget what they call it. How do you punch a hole in the deck. Your wife dropping an aluminum ladder on it is one way ; ( ----- Original Message ----- From: "Melissa Reese" <melissa_at_bonnyweeboaty.net> To: "Paddlewise" <paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net> Sent: Saturday, March 01, 2003 11:52 PM Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] if not AL, how about wood? > On Saturday, March 01, 2003, at 9:13:00 PM PST, Dave Kruger wrote: > > > Both CLC and Pygmy avoid glass on the underside of their decks. I > > think that is a weak point. > > The Superior Kayaks/CLC Arctic Hawk kit I'm building is a bit > different. Construction method is the same used by Mark Rogers > (designer of the AH) when he builds them (he wrote the 400 page > building manual, with pictures of him building a boat from beginning > to end). > > I've paddled the glass and Kevlar Wilderness Systems versions of the > Arctic Hawk, and I feel that this wood/glass version is the strongest > of them all. > > This boat is built to last! :-) > > -- > Melissa *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Gordon Snapp wrote: >(And by the way, I'm not saying that Chesapeakes are better. I actually think that Pygmies might be more "serious" kayaks. "John Fereira" <jaf30_at_cornell.edu> wrote: >I would suggest that it is the other way around. The Northbay (20" wide x 18'6" long) is a very serious kayak as is the Patuxent. I have found that the Pygmy boats on the other hand are generally more stable and higher volume, both qualities that one would associate with a model that is a bit "friendlier" to the less experienced paddler. The popular Chesapeake line is a huge, stable, high-volume kayak. The Arctic Terns are much smaller...but it's difficult to generalize the entire lines of both builders. Sorta depends on your definition of "serious", but for some folks, it's a narrow, low-to-mid-volume kayak, with decent maneuverability, good rough water handling, and a low aft deck or coaming (for rolling ease). In my opinion of "serious", some other S&G kayaks to check out: Squeedunk Cormorant 16, 17, and 18 (love mine!): http://www.squeedunk.com Mine (custom lowered deck, stock hull design): http://www.geocities.com/shawnkayak/cormorant Guillemot S&G Guillemot: http://www.guillemot-kayaks.com/Building/Stitch%26Glue/StitchAndGlue.html I have the strip Guillemot, built as an 18' kayak, and it's a wonderful rough water playboat. Shearwater Merganser (honestly don't have experience with these, but they're reputed to be good performers:) http://www.shearwater-boats.com >When I was looking for a Greenland style boat to build I compared the Northbay with the Arctic Tern. Even more Greenland-ish is Bobby Curtis' Sea Spirit...which he designed after building and paddling a couple of modified North Bays. http://www.seaspiritkayaks.com/ My buddy Bill Price built a beautiful one with a stripped deck: http://users.moscow.com/bprice/ss/ > A 23" wide beam, as in the Tern would be considered massive by traditional Greenland standards. All our hardshell kayaks are considered massive by traditional Greenland standards! In strippers, the Outer Island, Guillemot, and Redfish King are all real "performers". Shawn __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop! http://platinum.yahoo.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Great posting, Shawn! Your list of "serious" kayaks (forgive me, everyone, for coining such a term) is very informative. I love my Chesapeake 17. I appreciate how much it can carry, and I like it's stability in fairly flat water, but I'm thinking I might want something a little different - "a narrow, low-to-mid-volume kayak, with decent maneuverability, good rough water handling, and a low aft deck or coaming (for rolling ease)." I'm in the process of building my wife a Guillemot. After that, I'm slated to build another one for my daughter (actually, I think my daughter will get the first one - the prototype with all the mistakes - and my wife will get the second one - the better one.) After that there's my son. BUT, after that it will be time for another boat for myself. It seems as if I read on one of your postings that you were tall with big feet - like me. I'm 6'4" and have size 14 feet. How would the boats on your "serious" list fit someone of my stature? Suppose I really like the Guillemot. Would it be better to build a Guillemot 'L' for myself or an Expedition or the regular model? I'm thinking my next boat won't need to carry enough stuff for a camping trip, since I've got the Chesapeake for that. I would be paddling mostly off the central coast of California. Thanks. - Gordon Snapp San Luis Obispo County, California *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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