Greetings! We're total newbie kayaker wannabees, husband & wife, Ashton & Leska in Cascadia (Oregon/Washington area), bought 2 recreational kayaks at REI on clearance: 2002 Dagger Zydecos. LOVE to paddle them on flatwater! Did a huge amount of research first, bought the Zydecos because they have a domed foredeck so moving legs and feet around to change positions is easy. We're in our 40s and after decades of caregiving have sore backs and creaky bods. Also on the accumulated advice at paddling.net splurged on 2 Werner bent shaft Kalliste paddles to help save wrist / arm / shoulder injuries and pain. Been lurking for a while at paddlewise eMail trying to glean facts from all you experienced experts: great list! To the dry bag question plaguing us at the moment: Got Seattle Sports brand, Hydro Venture Glacier Clear Dry Bags, small & medium sizes. Filled them about 1/3 with emergency fleece clothing in case of dunking, rest of space air. About 1/2 hour after sealing, air has deflated _at_ 50%. Bags limp squishy soft -- won't stuff as tightly into bow & stern spaces for max floatation. Is this quick air deflation normal? ??? Bought them for dual purpose: floatation and keeping gear dry. Wondering if the brand is bad (sold at REI & Andy + Bax in Portland, Oregon) or if all dry bags do this? Have filled many times to test; always deflate within 1 hour. If air seeps out so easily, does that mean water will seep (or flood!?) IN just as easily? Have not actually used these outside yet; they haven't gotten wet; just practicing loading 2 new recreational kayaks (Dagger Zydecos); can return these dry bags if they're malfunctioning. What's normal? Thanks for your help! *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
----- Original Message ----- From: "allaha" <allaha_at_earthlink.net> > To the dry bag question plaguing us at the moment: > > Got Seattle Sports brand, Hydro Venture Glacier Clear Dry Bags, small & > medium sizes. Filled them about 1/3 with emergency fleece clothing in case > of dunking, rest of space air. About 1/2 hour after sealing, air has > deflated _at_ 50%. Bags limp squishy soft -- won't stuff as tightly into bow & > stern spaces for max floatation. > > Is this quick air deflation normal? ??? > > Bought them for dual purpose: floatation and keeping gear dry. > > Wondering if the brand is bad (sold at REI & Andy + Bax in Portland, Oregon) > or if all dry bags do this? Have filled many times to test; always deflate > within 1 hour. Seattle Sports is not a bad brand. I have several of their dry bags and they do not deflate as you are experiencing. Perhaps it is how you are using them. The general technique is to do fold toward the seam if there is one with you folding the stiffer material (usually black plastic like band) so that it clamps down the dry bag material. Run your fingers across the black plastic stiffner material to make certain the fold is flat. Then double over at least 2 more times, each time flatting out material as best you can. You can even go for a 3rd fold. At this point, you will have quite a bit of air trapped in the bag along with your stored gear. Now hug the bag and see if you can burp any air out of it. If the bag deflates as you hug it, it is losing air. A dry bag should be able to withstand that burping test. My Seattle Sports dry bags pass that test. Mine are not the clear type (which would be vinyle) but rather coated nylon. The best dry bags I ever ran across (and I have several) were Bone Dry. I don't believe they are still made. With the first fold, you could not burp air out of them and the rest of the folds just made the seal tighter. Most dry bags will seep air after the first fold if you try to burp them. ralph diaz-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024 Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com "Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag." ----------------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I would add that after the folding be sure to secure the clip opposite the fold (i.e. on the back side, away from the fold). John Browning *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> Bought them for dual purpose: floatation and keeping gear dry. Flotation is not really the primary intent of gearbags. Most are pretty air tight if the fold over seal is folded over enough times. Leakage of a small amount of air over time would not be that unusual however. They still provide some flotation if they are stuffed with sleeping bags or other light-weight stuff. Your stuff will stay dry unless immersion is prolonged. It takes a lot longer for substantial water to move into a bag than for air to move out if the bag has been filled with enough air to be under pressure. Dedicated float bags and bulkheads are the best way of "insuring" flotation. That said, in the Northwest, the problem is that you cannot spend too much time in the water and want to figure out a good system to reliably get back into your boat. Flotation provided by slightly air-leaky gear bags would be valuable for the 15 minutes that you have to get yourself back into the kayak. But I envisage those gearbags being basically filled with gear, not inflated with air. The rest of the volume should be protected by bulkheads or floatbags. Gearbags provide some backup flotation if your bulkhead volume is violated by a crack after hitting a rock and such. I do not know if your Dagger has bulkheads, but I am not a fan of sea kayaks without bulkheads. At a minimum they require considerable discipline in terms making sure that float bags are in place, not leaking, and secured EVERY time you go out. Most people are not that compulsive so effectively these kayaks are not as safe. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Robert Livingston & Pam Martin; , Thank you for such clear explanations. Appreciative the safety advice. We will look into sizes of dedicated floatation bags. Shawn Baker, Thank you for clear explanations and advice on how exactly to use and close drybags; really helps. Re cold water here: we're being careful to stay fairly close to shore on calm shallow lakes and flatwater rivers/sloughs. Next fall/winter hope to have $$$ to buy Kokatat drysuit w/ all options (expensive at _at_ $800 each!). Until then it's baby-stepping with the extra fleece drybagged clothing in kayaks in case of dunking. Ralph Diaz, Thank you for tips on closing drybags properly. Your explanations helped us understand where we went wrong. Gordon Snapp, Thank you for clear explanations. Will look into Campmor brand combo floatation/drybags. John Browning, Thank you for mentioning to clip opposite the fold (do, but confirmation helpful). Patrick Maun, Your story "upside down six feet underwater beneath a rapidly sinking boat" is the stuff of nightmares! Yes we fear kayaking, but the enjoyment is so intense. Bought Maverick sprayskirts made for Necky Sky but fit our Dagger Zydecos. Dagger customer service says it would be difficult to roll the Zydeco (large cockpit on recreational kayak). By the time we read your response we started realizing that there really might be float bags that can cram alongside/squish around? drybags. Will investigate. Zydecos have small stern/bow spaces, no bulkheads/hatches, kayaks only 9' 3". Dave Kruger, Thanks for your explanations. Our paddling mania started in earnest when we wanted to hike Long Island on Wallapa Bay last summer and a book mentioned a ferry. No ferry. Friend said to buy a $25 raft. GI Joe's had sidewalk sale; bought Sevylor Fish Hunter inflatable raft. Had fun; kayakers around us looked like they were having an even better time. Plan to head back to Astoria area this summer. John Browning, Added the large mesh carrying bag to Wish List :-) We're planning at this beginning stage to leave drybags with extra fleece clothing in kayaks and only take them out if dunked, so hopefully no friction punctures. Have 3/4" strapping with those plastic fasteners to lash drybags in (small) space. Alex, Thanks for your tips of how you pack. We considered a folding kayak but since we don't know what the heck we're doing yet, went with "indestructible" plastic hardshell recreationals. Keith W Robertson, Interesting about the air valve on your Ortlieb compression dry bags. We were doing just the opposite, blowing as much as possible into our drybags to max dual-purpose into float bags. Live and learn! Enough air is staying in our drybags to tide us over until we can research/test/afford the right floatation bags to add to the mix. Bob Volin, Seal Line sounds like a sure bet. Use Thermarests on California King-sized waterbed frame, take them on homecare 24/7 jobs and also camping. All, Started Research / Upgrade List already. THANK YOU !!! Ashton & Leska in Cascadia *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
----- Original Message ----- From: "Ashton & Leska" <allaha_at_earthlink.net> > Thank you for clear explanations and advice on how exactly to use and close > drybags; really helps. Re cold water here: we're being careful to stay > fairly close to shore on calm shallow lakes and flatwater rivers/sloughs. > Next fall/winter hope to have $$$ to buy Kokatat drysuit w/ all options > (expensive at _at_ $800 each!). Until then it's baby-stepping with the extra > fleece drybagged clothing in kayaks in case of dunking. I don't think that being careful to stay close to shore will give you much protection in case of a capsize. My guess is that in cold water that you would not be able to swim much further than a hundred feet or so before you could pretty much lose it. You may not be able to swim at all within a few seconds of hitting the water, period. My suggestion is that you wait for better water temperatures and not count on the closeness of shore or the fickle calmness of water conditions as your life support system. Kayaking tends to be a lifelong activity provided you live a long life. ralph diaz *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> Re cold water here: we're being careful to stay > fairly close to shore on calm shallow lakes and flatwater rivers/sloughs. Your kayak is not designed for rough water and open crossings. Be careful. I have a similar boat which I greatly enjoy because it is easy to get in and out of the water and I use for little trips along the shoreline. It is difficult to get adequate flotation into these little boats. And difficult to secure what flotation you have. Your float bags and gear are likely to go floating away if you tip over or swamp. These are cheap kayaks of a genre that I personally enjoy. But keep in mind that you have to be able to get to shore quickly if the weather changes as these are not designed as rough water craft. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> Your kayak is not designed for rough water and open crossings. > It is difficult to get adequate flotation into these little boats. And > difficult to secure what flotation you have. Your float bags and gear are > likely to go floating away if you tip over or swamp. That's something else they have to think about - to secure all these dry- or float-bags, whatever will fit into kayak. May be to glue on "eyes" or loops inside. Otherwise bags pop out of the boat when it's filled with water - very easy, and there might be no time to catch all of them. Alex. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I agree with others. Dry bags are not supposed to be float bags per se. The fact that they add floatation is an added benefit to their primary function, which is to keep your stuff dry. I agree with Shawn - if you pack them tightly without extra air, they'll stay dry and still give you some floatation. If your storage space is crammed full of dry bags, you'll have quite a bit of floatation. If not, and you want floatation as a safety item (always a good idea, even in boats with bulkheads), buy float bags. I bought some from Campmor that are pointed and fit into the ends of my boat. They blow up with a tube and are air tight. They have the added benefit of having storage space inside, separate from the air chambers, so they can also be used as dry bags, though they aren't as good for that as a true dry bag. One tip: when taking a kayak camping trip, dry bags work really well as a pillow - especially if you're like me and like to prop your head up to read in bed. It's always a problem when camping. When I get enough stuff under my head to prop my head up suitably, it always starts to slide backwards as soon as I put my head on it. The rubber surface of a dry bag is non-slip. It works great! However, if the bag has a lot of air in it, the same problem occurs: the air gradually leaks out and your head gradually sinks lower and lower. I've learned to stuff the dry bag with enough clothes, then roll it up and compress it just enough to get a perfect sized reading pillow. Heaven! I like it so much that I even brought a dry bag with me on my last backpacking trip. It's a little extra weight, but I really like to read in my tent, and I like to be comfortable! Another tip: When I go kayak camping it's a lot handier to have many small dry bags, rather than a couple of really large ones. I had some really large dry bags I bought for day trips in a canoe. When I took my first kayak camping trip it seemed like whatever I wanted was always at the bottom of one of these giant bags, and I'd have to empty everything to get to it. I bought several small bags for my next trip and it was much better. See through bags, or the kind with a triangular window also make it easier to find what you're looking for. Cheers! *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I agree that float bags are vital in a boat without bulkheads. It is amazing how quickly a boat can sink. Last winter I was at a pool session and was setting up for a re-entry and roll in a small whitewater boat without bulkheads or floatbags. Next things I know I was upside down six feet underwater beneath a rapidly sinking boat. Quite an odd sensation! Floatbags have the added benefit of keeping your gear nice and snug within the boat. -Patrick *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Thank you All very much for so many thoughtful and informative responses! We are trying to absorb and test a lot of this new information. First, paddling/water/boats is a totally NEW thing for us; having many duh?! ahso! moments at the very beginning stage of all this. Also, although we have our own small homecare biz, now we're working for _at_ minimum wage at a nursing home (temporary relief from insane pt family members) so we have extremely limited finances. Spent every spare cent getting started paddling :-) Having exhilarating FUN out there with 2 Zydecos. Went to Vancouver Lake yesterday and paddled, first time with all our own gear. Now only desire is to paddle 24/7. OOoooooooooo! http://www.dagger.com/product.asp?BoatType=Rec&BoatID=189 Dagger Zydeco Recreational kayaks: 9' 3", _at_ 37 lbs (sans gear in drybags), with NO bulkheads or hatches. Empty space in stern & bow, but small factory conehead styrofoam screwed into both stern & bow. Called Dagger and a customer service rep said there's just enough styrofoam to comply with Coast Guard recommendations and the kayak will not sink lower than water line. After reading so much about safety and realizing need for floatation, looked at floatation bags. _at_ $45 each = $180 for bow & stern for 2 kayaks, then no room for anything else! Had read that drybags = floatation so bought 8 drybags in sizes that, when filled with air, snugly crammed Zydecos. One mistake was puffing drybags as round as possible with a little fleece clothing and lots of air and not realizing that compression would leak. Too much wishful thinking about tight seal. After leaving kayaks in van overnight _at_ temp 34F drybags deflated a little less than half. Sounds like that is normal from y'all's experience. Our clear bags tend to deflate a little more than the solid color (different material) ones. Reading all your wonderful responses: will reply specifically: thank you!!! Ashton & Leska in Cascadia *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Ashton & Leska <allaha_at_earthlink.net> wrote: >Called Dagger and a customer service rep said there's just enough styrofoam to comply with Coast Guard recommendations and the kayak will not sink lower than water line. Translation: the kayak will not sink out of sight, but it's not enough to maintain safe flotation to support your body weight. >After reading so much about safety and realizing need for floatation, >looked at floatation bags. _at_ $45 each = $180 for bow & stern for 2 >kayaks, then no room for anything else! June 2002 Sea Kayaker magazine had a good article on DIY float bags and dry bags. Email me offline, and I'll put you in touch with a cheap source of the heat-sealable nylon fabric. Sea Kayaking is a slightly expensive, and very gear-intensive sport (especially in cold PNW waters), but there are ways to paddle safely and comfortably on a budget...trust me, I started out as a college student! Happy paddling! Shawn __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more http://taxes.yahoo.com/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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