Good Folk of Paddlewise, As the original poster of the message "Cold Water Clothing", I am still waiting for an answer to my simple question. Is seems however that I have inadvertently stirred the proverbial hornet's nest. I just wanted to hear some opinion as to the proper wearing of layering garments in conjunction with a Farmer John style wetsuit; over or under? I am a retired Coast Guard officer who served some hard time in the UP of Michigan and on Kodiak Island in Alaska. I also investigated numerous exposure related deaths, some of the victims were even wearing exposure suits. When the sea water around you is basically slush at 28 deg F, you will die very, very, quickly without appropriate exposure protection that is WORN correctly. NOW, does anyone care to answer my original question? Rob Castle Crofton, Maryland *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> I just wanted to hear > some opinion as to the proper wearing of layering garments in conjunction > with a Farmer John style wetsuit; over or under? I think a few folks have already addressed this, before going off on their rambling rants. But here's my take on it; Wetsiuts are designed to be worn tight, and to trap a thin layer of water against the skin. A million years ago when I used to sell diving equipment I used to tell people who were shopping for their first wetsuit that "the first wetsuit you buy will always be too tight! The next wet suit you buy will be even tighter!" That's because a tighter suit is more efficient when used properly. What this means is that by buying a larger, looser suit because it's more comfortable, or wearing some insulation underneath your suit will reduce the suits efficiency in the water. Some folks are perfectly willing to sacrifice some efficiency for comfort. That's your choice. It should be noted however, that wetsuits are designed to be worn in the water. I have seen people become somewhat hypothermic while wearing a wet suit on land. When you are vertical the water in the suit runs out and the evaporation can make the suit fairly chilly, particularly if the person wearing it is no longer active. Wearing an insulating layer and a windbreaker on the outside of the suit will help eliminate this. Scott So.Cal. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
----- Original Message ----- From: KiAyker_at_aol.com To: Rob.Castle_at_mail.house.gov Re: [Paddlewise] Whoa Nellie!!> >>> Wetsiuts are designed to be worn tight, and to trap a thin layer of water against the skin. A million years ago when I used to sell diving equipment I used to tell people who were shopping for their first wetsuit that "the first wetsuit you buy will always be too tight! The next wet suit you buy will be even tighter!" <<< Hear! Hear! Any thickness underneath your wetsuit is a conduit for water to get in and flow through next to you. Water is about 25 times more heat conductive than air, so this is a risk. It's called a wetsuit because you do get wet. it is basically a layer of blubber you normally don't have. It won't work well if you space that blubber away from you. So, for me, I never wear anything 'neath my suit except occasionally a (very) thin rash guard garment. --And certainly I prefer nothing at the edge of the suit where water can enter. Any other layers are worn Over the suit. Otherwise I've cancelled out what I put on the suit for. I have both wet and dry suits. The drysuit has many advantages in that I can layer beneath it for different thermal conditions. Can I get overly warm if the air temp is high? Yes. Can I fall into the water for a few seconds to cool down? Yes. Can I get back into my boat? Yes -- but then again I'm usually doing this if I'm stopped along the shore. And I may instead take the time to add or subtract a layer instead. Probably 90 percent of my paddlling time here in New Jersey is on a river or fairly close to shore. My main concern then is if I have enough thermal protection to get to shore and dry off/warm up. The suits give me an edge. When do I wear which? Probably most of the time it's the wetsuit, largely because it's enough (and I worked that out the hard way). But when either the water gets down below 45-50 F, the air temp is cold, or I expect to get water splashed on me and into the boat, then it's the drysuit. If I'm in Class III whitewater it's always the drysuit. Same for being in cold but quietwater some distance from shore. A local USCG officer told me of the 50/50 rule they use here. You have a 50% chance of survival if you're 50 yards from the shore. From a seasonal approach, I'm wearing a drysuit now, but by the end of April I will have shifted over to the wetsuit. HTH Joe P. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> From a seasonal approach, I'm wearing a drysuit now, but by the > end of >April I will have shifted over to the wetsuit. Same here in southern Maine and New Hampshire. We tend to wear drysuits with poly under layers from early November through end of April. Then the wetsuits come out. Air is typically single digits to mid thirties, and water is low forties to low fifties during these times. Wind is always a factor too. Hands get punished most, so pogies work best. I generally wear only briefs under my Farmer John wetsuit and a heavy sweater and nylon shell over that. Headwear is a given. It's always chilly when immersing with a wetsuit, but I tend to warm up quickly after a few minutes in the water; the body warms up the water layer in the suit. In very cold, winter conditions, I just don't like getting wet. That's the second-biggest reason for the drysuit... the first reason, of course, is the much cooler water temps. And I guess I really would never consider putting any kind of other layer under the wetsuit. I don't believe they are designed for this (as others have pointed out). Hope this helps a bit more for you. Happy paddling! TomL *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
We are a difficult lot. Friendly and pointy all in the same breath. I live in GA and so really cant address your question. I wear my poly over my tight fitting FJ wetsuit because its more comfy. I have intentionally swam in 45 degree water while dressed like this. I was functional but it was brisk. Jim et al > Its seems however that I have > inadvertently stirred the proverbial hornet's nest. I just wanted to hear > some opinion as to the proper wearing of layering garments in conjunction > with a Farmer John style wetsuit; over or under? NOW, does anyone > care to answer my original question? > > Rob Castle > Crofton, Maryland *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
--- "Castle, Rob" <Rob.Castle_at_mail.house.gov> wrote: ...I am still waiting for an answer to my simple question... ...wanted to hear some opinion as to the proper wearing of layering > garments in conjunction with a Farmer John style wetsuit; over or > under? Rob, Obviously even this "simple question" has no "right" answer, so you were wise to solicit opinions instead of answers. IMO it is more comfortable both in the boat and in the (cold) water to wear tights under wet suits of any configuration. Lycra/spandex tights are my choice bottom and top (full-coverage sport bra plus a rash guard top in my case but you do what you need to!). I think that the layer of lycra actually increases the insulating value of the layer of water, but I may be all wet :). I use a long-sleeve wetsuit when it's cold (another holy war issue) so my arms are already covered enough for me. If I was in a Fmr Jane I might use either a hydroskin top under or a fuzzy rubber zip thing over. Even when the air temp is below freezing I tend to overheat so I only use a paddle jacket if it's windy or precipitating but have one handy to cover up when needed. Of course, now that I am a proud drysuit owner this is all moot as that is infinitely more comfortable in almost all cases. YMMV Jennifer QCC 600x, Impex Mystic, Feathercraft Khatsalano, WS Alto, Alden star, homemade wherry.... do you think I have a compulsion?? *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Hi Rob, Let me give you my .02:) I've been taught a wetsuit works by trapping a thin layer of moisture next to your skin allowing it to be warmed by your body. For a wetsuit to do its job it must fit snugly so that the warmed water inside the suit does not easily exchange with the cold outside water. Some folks advocate a THIN undergarment like polypropylene worn under the suit as assisting with slowing the exchange of body-warmed moisture with the cold surrounding fluid. Personally I wear my farmer john next to my skin on my lower body and a Polypro shirt under the farmer john top. As long as I'm working this is enough to keep me comfortable in air temps down to the mid 40's or so. I know it will also allow me to be mobile for a short immersion in 50 degree water if necessary. Any additional layering is put on the outside. Once I stop for lunch I'll need to throw another layer or a wind shell on, as my farmer john doesn't provide much protection from wind. If I'm paddling solo, or planning to roll, I'll have a paddle jacket with latex wrist gaskets on my upper body as the farmer john top does not provide much protection for your upper body for a long immersion. Having said all that, I don't wear a wetsuit if I think I'm likely to spend any time in water colder than 60 degrees, around here with a few exceptions the salt water is never much over 50. I will wear a drysuit with insulating undergarments. Another Rob. Rob Castle wrote: >Good Folk of Paddlewise, >As the original poster of the message "Cold Water Clothing", I am still >waiting for an answer to my simple question. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
----- Original Message ----- Hi Rob, >>>I've been taught a wetsuit works by trapping a thin layer of moisture next to your skin allowing it to be warmed by your body. << More accurately, it does not allow a Large amount of cold water next to your skin A moisture layer is not necessary for the functioning of a wetsuit. Rather, it works to minimize your exposure... >>For a wetsuit to do its job it must fit snugly so that the warmed water inside the suit does not easily exchange with the cold outside water.<< Yes, so that only a small amount of water needs warming and your body doesn't have to lose a lot of heat to do so... >>>Some folks advocate a THIN undergarment like polypropylene worn under the suit as assisting with slowing the exchange of body-warmed moisture with the cold surrounding fluid. <<< But that's the main job of the wetsuit!!! You really don't need a conduit to permit more cold water to get under there... I wouldn't call this 'assisting'... Another function of the wetsuit is as an insulation layer to keep that now-warmed water from transferring that heat to the colder water on the outside. Joe P. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Interesting discussion. To add a request; has anyone had experience with NRS Hydroskin farmer johns in immersion situations, F 50 or so? Kevin *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 3/12/2003 1:29:28 PM Eastern Standard Time, pylka_at_castle.net writes: > But that's the main job of the wetsuit!!! You really don't need a > conduit to permit more cold water to get under there... I wouldn't call > this > 'assisting'... > Years ago, back before there was much information on cold water paddling, I put on my wet suit over a cotton tee shirt. I almost froze. I was doing white water and paddling hard, but getting colder and colder. Finally I took the tee shirt off because it was cold on my arms. Guess what? I warmed right up. From that experience, I determined that I don't need anything under my wet suit wicking the heat from my body. I know that the modern fabrics do not wick like cotton, but they do wick some and that will wick heat. If you woke up breathing, congratulations. You have another chance, Ronnie *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 07:40 PM 3/12/2003 -0500, Harley1941_at_aol.com wrote: > Years ago, back before there was much information on cold water >paddling, I put on my wet suit over a cotton tee shirt. I almost froze. I was >doing white water and paddling hard, but getting colder and colder. Finally I >took the tee shirt off because it was cold on my arms. Guess what? I warmed >right up. From that experience, I determined that I don't need anything under >my wet suit wicking the heat from my body. I know that the modern fabrics do >not wick like cotton, but they do wick some and that will wick heat. > >If you woke up breathing, congratulations. You have another chance, >Ronnie That's my same experience from ice diving 30+ years ago. If I wore anything under the wet suit it was just briefs. If the air was colder than the water we couldn't wait to get in and "warm up". Standing around in a wet suit in sub-freezing air is more miserable that being under the ice (once the water in the suit warms up that is). Dave G. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Once again, the original question asked by Ron was not about dry suits. He simply asked what's the best way to wear a Farmer John wetsuit for kayaking - with insulation over or under the suit? So let me take one more crack at this since there seem to be a lot of fallacies being bantered about on this topic. The thin Lycra suits which are sometimes worn under wetsuits are designed to make getting into and out of a tight rubber suit a little easier. They also provide some protection against rash for the more sensitive types who are prone to such. While some people may claim that they also provide some extra warmth to the suit I suspect that this is mostly psychological on the divers part. Lycra is a very thin material which absorbs minimal water and provides little insulation. Bulkier materials under the wetsuit allow more water in, and while the extra material does not seem to increase or decrease the flow of water through the suit, the extra water does come at an extra expense - your body needs to warm it. Which requires less energy to warm up, your swimming pool, or your spa? The spa of course. Why? Because it contains less water. Which will warm up more quickly, the spa or the pool? Once again the spa, and once again because it contains less water. The same thing is true with a wetsuit. The insulation of the wetsuit does not come from the water. Water is a really lousy insulator. Water is great for cooling things down. Your car engine is cooled by water, and so are nuclear power plants. If you are wearing an absorbent garment underneath a wetsuit then once it gets wet all you are left with is water! The wetsuits insulation comes from the gas bubbles trapped in the gas blown neoprene material. Any diver can tell you that as you descend to deeper depths the gas bubbles in the neoprene become compressed due to the additional pressures present and you began to lose your insulation. Of course this is not a problem to kayakers. Diving is a huge money making industry. I can't believe all of the color coordinated fancy smancy exceedingly over priced crap that every diver must have these days to participate in that sport. Don't you think that if it made any sense at all to wear some sort of material as insulation under the wetsuit that the industry would offer a special garment with their logo on it for divers or surfers, or even kayakers, to wear? If you think that wearing something under your wetsuit is better - then do it! I think as far as our applications as kayakers go we just might be splitting hairs here. But Rob was asking what was the most efficient use of a Farmer John wetsuit in kayaking - insulation under or over? There is absolutely no question that as far as swimming goes you will be better off with it over. Scott So.Cal. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Why? Steve Brown *************Origional************** .... But Rob was asking what was the most efficient use of a Farmer John wetsuit in kayaking - insulation under or over? There is absolutely no question that as far as swimming goes you will be better off with it over. Scott So.Cal. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Ok Rob, I give up. Since you are a retired Coast Guard officer I am assuming you already know the answer to your question. Or am I just an overly suspicious person? Thanks! *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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