Matt wrote: >ACA literature has in the past totally ignored the possibility of fixing the paddle to the back deck. Matt Broze wrote: >Since anybody could add some eyelets (or a Nimbus system) to their kayaks quite easily I don't see why the ACA shouldn't also point out the advantages of fixing the paddle to the deck if it can be done with the kayak being used. Shawn: They do. Just because they ignored it in the past, doesn't mean they aren't currently advocating the option to fix the paddle to the kayak. See: http://www.acanet.org/pdf/beginnersguide-spread.pdf See page 19, "When holding the other end tightly to the boat ( or fastening to deck rigging) , the paddle forms an effective outrigger, making the kayak more stable and easier to enter" Some kayakers could easily add the Nimbus system to their kayaks. A lot of kayakers are all thumbs, and reluctant to put drill to kayak. A recommendation from the ACA, Shawn Baker, Matt Broze, or God herself won'd likely prompt the average paddler to do that level of modifications. If it doesn't come out of the plant ready for use, chances are, most kayakers are not going to make it happen. I salute the thought you've put into your deck rigging, and there are some other great, thoughtful manufacturers out there...but you oughtn't defend them all...they're not all at that level. 1/8" bungie "chrome" doesn't count. Matt: >ACA mention of using a fixed outrigger might encourage more manufacturers to make sure their deck arrangements work well for this method. Shawn: Unlike the BCU's relationship in Great Britain with kayak manufacturers, I don't see US manufacturers deferring to any kayaking club for advice. Do you? Matt: >Actually, I think the manufacturers are way ahead of the ACA in this regard. Shawn: I disagree. I still don't believe that the average kayak has adequate rigging for a fixed paddle rescue. Maybe I need to get out and survey the latest crop of commercial offerings, but what I've seen have had pretty weak or non-existent bungies. The ACA says hold the paddle to the kayak or fix to rigging. How can you be way ahead of an either-or statement? Shawn __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Matt wrote: >ACA literature has in the past totally ignored the possibility of fixing the paddle to the back deck. I don't think this has been an ignorant omission; rather, a reflection that 80% of the boats out there have poor aft deck outfitting for a fixed paddlefloat outrigger rescue. The Mariner kayaks, with sturdy 1/4" braided nylon rigging; and Nimbus and Seaward, with 1" webbing and side-release buckles both offer solid attachments for a fixed paddlefloat rescue. Pacific Water Sports' rear deck paddle park is good, but not nearly as good. Most of the other kayak manufacturers out there have stretchy 3/16" bungies, that IMHO offer a false sense of security when rigging a "fixed" paddlefloat outrigger. If it's going to be solid, it needs to be solid, and you need to be able to rely on it. If it's not going to be solid or reliable, you're better off never using it. shawn __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Kajak Sport has a system that consists of plastic hooks on thick shockcord that you can put over the paddle shaft. I took a look on the website but couldn't find anything about it. Seems like a nice system. If I need to do a paddlefloat re-entry I just hold the rim so I cut it off my Millennium and put in plain shockcord. -Patrick On Tue, 22 Jul 2003 09:15:45 -0700 (PDT), Shawn Baker wrote > Matt wrote: > >ACA literature has in the past totally ignored the possibility of > fixing the paddle to the back deck. [snip] *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On 22 Jul 2003 at 9:15, Shawn Baker wrote: > Most of the other kayak manufacturers out there have stretchy 3/16" > bungies, that IMHO offer a false sense of security when rigging a > "fixed" paddlefloat outrigger. If it's going to be solid, it needs to > be solid, and you need to be able to rely on it. If it's not going to > be solid or reliable, you're better off never using it. Big agreement here. Most bungie arrangements are nowhere near good enough to be used reliably for paddle float reentry. In fact, I'd go so far as to describe them as more decorative than functional. If you're serious about using the technique, replace the bungies with a more solid arrangement. Doug's article in Sea Kayaker a while back gave a good rundown on alternatives, both commercial and homemade. Mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
First is you want to handle some contingencies, users of the paddlefloat rescue should practice with and without boat assisted tiedown capabilities - lines, etc do break, you may not be in your boat, etc. More important, IMHO, is the viability of this rescue in other flatwater or very mild (less than 1 foot) seas. Why not advocate a paddlefloat re-entry and roll. Just some food for thought. ss *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
--- SNStone_at_aol.com wrote: > First is you want to handle some contingencies, users of the > paddlefloat rescue should practice with and without boat assisted > tiedown capabilities - lines, etc do break, you may not be in your > boat, etc. Absolutely. And key word being practice. > More important, IMHO, is the viability of this rescue in other > flatwater or very mild (less than 1 foot) seas. Why not advocate a > paddlefloat re-entry and roll. I don't think the paddlefloat outrigger rescue is all that bad in bigger seas..but it's a matter of actually practicing in realistic conditions. Personally, I prefer the T-rescue when assisted, and the cowboy scramble when solo, but I advocate that folks learn as many as they can, practicing them, and having a full bag of tricks to draw from. Shawn __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
After trying reentry and roll and further capsize three times until I could learn to lean towards the wave on the paddelfloat on 6 foot breaking waves in Chachalacas, I was able to broach all the way to the beach with the cockpit full of water, spending every now and then few seconds under water on a high brace position, over the paddlefloat. I donīt think any other type of rescue after wet exit would have worked in that environment. Neither the cowboy entry nor fixing the paddle to the back coaming would have been possible in that motion. The option to swimming to the beach was very difficult since waves kept you at that place, nor getting closer or drifted away to calmer waters. Right there reentry, roll, support against the paddlefloat and wave, broach and move towards the beach waiting for the next wave was the best move. Therefore I am a strong advocate of reentry and roll and pumping out if possible, which wasnīt at that time, using the leverage system described few days ago, Best Regards, Rafael www.mayanseas.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
--- SNStone_at_aol.com wrote: > First is you want to handle some contingencies, users of the > paddlefloat rescue should practice with and without boat assisted > tiedown capabilities - lines, etc do break, you may not be in your > boat, etc ---Shawn Baker wrote: Absolutely. And key word being practice. > More important, IMHO, is the viability of this rescue in other > flatwater or very mild (less than 1 foot) seas. Why not advocate a > paddlefloat re-entry and roll. ---Shawn Baker wrote: I don't think the paddlefloat outrigger rescue is all that bad in bigger seas..but it's a matter of actually practicing in realistic conditions. Personally, I prefer the T-rescue when assisted, and the cowboy scramble when solo, but I advocate that folks learn as many as they can, practicing them, and having a full bag of tricks to draw from. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------- I have to agree with Shawn on the viability of a paddlefloat rescue.The only time I woudl do a paddlefloat re-entry and roll is if the water was extremely cold, and I couldn't take the minute to do a paddlefloat re-entry. I have done a paddlefloat re-entry in 25 knot winds with 11 foot seas. As Shawn said, practice is the key. The paddlers I hang around with all do a practice session for rescue and re-entry skills about once a month or so, all year round. I too prefer the assisted T-rescue but when solo, the cowboy scramble won't work for me. My cockpit is not big enough for me to drop my butt in and then bring my legs in. I have to sit up on the back deck and insert my feet first, and that's just too unstable to do in conditions that already caused a capsize. It's much easier to do a paddlefloat recovery for me with my boat. Steve Holtzman *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
--- Steve Holtzman <sh_at_actglobal.net> wrote: > the cowboy scramble won't work for me. My cockpit is not big enough for me to drop my butt in and then bring my legs in. I have to sit up on the back deck and insert my feet first, and that's just too unstable to do in conditions that already caused a capsize. Hmmm...I have to play Devil's Advocate with myself.... In conditions that _actually_ caused a capsize, I probably couldn't guarantee that I could do a Cowboy Scramble. I practice this rescue in all the conditions I encounter...but none of these conditions have caused a capsize and wet exit yet. If it were actually violent enough that my roll wouldn't work and I had to wet exit...the CS likely wouldn't be reliable. I'll stick to the roll as a primary capsize recovery tool. But really, we're all between swims, so practicing actual rescues is always a good idea. Shawn __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
ACA quote: >>>>> "When holding the other end tightly to the boat (or fastening to deck rigging) , the paddle forms an effective outrigger, making the kayak more stable and easier to enter"<<<<<< Shawn wrote (among other things): >>>>>The ACA says hold the paddle to the kayak or fix to rigging. How can you be way ahead of an either-or statement?<<<<< I've not yet seen anything from the ACA or in their curriculum (not that I've been looking that hard lately) regarding the benefits of the fixed paddle system during the long time it takes to pump the kayak out. The stuff on page 9 of the beginners manual is virtually useless beyond letting someone know that such rescues are in the realm of the possible. I'd like to see something in detail from the ACA on technique for self rescues where pros and cons of which rescues work best when are discussed. Even Roger Shuman (ACA) and Jan Shriner's (ACA) book "Sea Kayak Rescue" mostly focuses on the supposed need to have a consistent paddle width and the lack of good rigging on many kayaks that you may sometime be paddling to poo poo fixing the paddle while strongly promoting the unfixed paddle for its versatility for use with poorly outfitted kayaks that one might happen to borrow. All except the "paddle blade width" red herring are valid points but nowhere is the major advantages of fixing the outrigger to the kayak discussed while a long discussion preceded it about how to deal with all the complications created by not fixing the paddle to the deck. Nowhere is it stated that these complications wouldn't have to be addressed if the paddle was fixed to the deck. They agreed with Sponsonman that sponsons only slow a kayak about 20%. John Lull (also ACA) gets it right and puts things in good perspective (with excellent details and sound reasoning) in his excellent book "Sea Kayaking Safety and Rescue". Alas, even John shows only the California affectation of coming up from the stern side of the paddle outrigger and laboriously switching hands and feet to walk over the paddle. If the back deck is low enough all these walk over steps are not necessary (especially when the paddle is fixed to the back deck). They are usually not necessary even with an unfixed paddle. If you can lift your chest out of the water (from a swimming position--legs at the surface) next to the cockpit while pull the back deck under you, until your belly is over the paddle blade, you are now in position to immediately put your feet into the cockpit and twist down into it. This is a whole lot quicker than slowly spinning a 180 around in a spider web walk with your chest or belly on the back deck while trading hands and feet holding the paddle to move around the paddle while you also try to keep the paddle out perpendicular to the kayak before you can put your feet in the cockpit. All I can figure is that few people ever practice pumping the kayak dry after reentering it. To their credit Roger and Jan do address this as a factor in how long a rescue takes and also the issue with the reenter and roll of scooping far more water into the kayak before having to pump it out. However, they don't mention that there will also be a lot slower pumping rate because of the stability issues that must be addressed when trying to use ones hands to hold the paddle to stabilize the kayak and use the same hands to put on the spraydeck and hold and then operate the pump simultaneously. Matt Broze www.marinerkayaks.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
--- Matt Broze <mkayaks_at_oz.net> wrote: > I've not yet seen anything from the ACA or in their curriculum (not > that I've been looking that hard lately) regarding the benefits of the > fixed paddle system during the long time it takes to pump the kayak out. I don't think you'll be able to find that sort of dogmatic statement in the "official party platform", either for or against. >Even Roger Shuman (ACA) and Jan Shriner's (ACA) book "Sea Kayak Rescue" mostly focuses on the supposed need to have a consistent paddle width and the lack of good rigging on many kayaks that you may sometime be paddling to poo poo Attributing opinions and techniques from individual Instructors and Instructor Trainers to the entire organization is a little too much of a generalization. Here's the official Basic Strokes and Rescues curriculum outline: http://www.acanet.org/pdf/basic-strokes-rescues-course.pdf It leaves a lot of interpretation to the individual Instructor and the needs of their students. > I'd like to see something in detail from the ACA on technique for self rescues where pros and cons of which rescues work best when are discussed. Why, so someone else can blast them later for being dogmatic? > Nowhere is it stated that these complications wouldn't have to be addressed if the paddle was fixed to the deck. So tilt at them, not the ACA. > Alas, even John shows only the California affectation of coming up from the stern side of the paddle outrigger and laboriously > switching hands and feet to walk over the paddle. So, in your view, is this ACA or California dogma? > All I can figure is that few people ever practice pumping the kayak > dry after reentering it. If more did practice this, there would be an even stronger argument for hands-free pumping systems. (Or dry boat re-entry techniques) Shawn __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
ss said: >First is you want to handle some contingencies, users of the paddlefloat rescue should practice with and without boat assisted tiedown capabilities - lines, etc do break, you may not be in your boat, etc.< Yeap. And paddles break too (hee,hee, especially with tight rear elastics and a spastic, wayward paddler lacking coordination)! >More important, IMHO, is the viability of this rescue in other flatwater or very mild (less than 1 foot) seas. Why not advocate a paddlefloat re-entry and roll.< Yeap again. But its getting that darn water outta da boat and get'n that dang skirt back on after a re-entry and roll that's the hard part in anything over 1-foot. And the time consuming part. And the tiring, taxing part if pumping manually. >Just some food for thought.< Here's some more: Practice doesn't make perfect. Luck, perseverance, level-headedness, alternative strategies, _and_ practice, make perfect. :-) I know. Doug Lloyd Victoria BC *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Doug Lloyd: Here's some more: Practice doesn't make perfect. Luck, perseverance, evel-headedness, alternative strategies, _and_ practice, make perfect. There is an old saying "Practice doesn't make perfect. Perfect practice makes perfect." I know, too, from my experience that sometimes all I do through practice is make my mistakes a habit. Jim Tibensky *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Jim said: >Doug Lloyd: Here's some more: Practice doesn't make perfect. Luck, perseverance, level-headedness, alternative strategies, _and_ practice,make perfect. >There is an old saying "Practice doesn't make perfect. Perfect practice makes perfect." I know, too, from my experience that sometimes all I do through practice is make my mistakes a habit.< Jim, Perhaps its the imperfect practice (practice where things go wrong) that prove the most revealing and beneficial. For me, practice sessions are where I not only dispel any lagging disuse issues, but where I also break paddles, hook PFD's on protuberances, or snap deck straps and/or break deck fittings. There's a lot of learning going on during these times. All really good stuff when you think about it, as after all, this is usually done in a controlled situation. Ideally though, I love the real-life rescue stuff where I am forced into trying things in real conditions with real psychological pressures. Not that I try to get myself into trouble, but where one survives, the reality of the methods used and their respective strengths and weaknesses sure come to light, along with the realities of cold-hand restrictions, need for adequate immersion apparel, etc... It would be kind of neat to send paddlers out into some dangerous seas, then make them try out their self-rescue strategies, only do it with some kind of safety net. I don't have cable TV, but I have seen a couple of those reality shows at friend's houses, like "Fear Factor" (I think it's called), where participants do seemingly dangerous activities but have backup close at hand. If I was running a kayak course, I think I'd devise something like that. As it is, the lake-bound paddlefloat sessions I've done in the past sure convinced a lot of paddlers how exhausting and difficult just pumping out their boat was with a hand pump after a successful wet re-enter (and that was even with a fixed-deck outrigger). It is a real satisfaction when you see the little lightbulb going on in their head, a big gulp, and the comment, "Mmmm, guess I better be a bit more prudent about paddling alone." I don't want to go off-context here, but I thought it was kind of funny that the front picture on Doug Alderson's/Mike Pardy's new book -- where they go into great lengths to try and situate kayakers away from the need for self-rescues like the paddlefloat rescue in the first place -- is a picture of a kayaker doing a paddlefloat re-entry. How ironic (and not either of the author's choice from what I understand). Well, there's always SOT's. Jump back on and away you go. Other than that, practice (perfect or imperfect) and perseverance get my vote in the rescue department. And a damn good roll -- for those so inclined. After all, Paddlefloats and Sponsons are the real anti-evolutionism. :-) Doug Lloyd Victoria BC *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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