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From: <Rick.Sylvia_at_ferguson.com>
subject: [Paddlewise] Roof Racks
Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 15:19:53 -0500
I'm guilty.  For a few years, I totally ignored the roof rack
discussions because I'm a die hard truck owner, and I build racks from
steel pipe that carry my boats, lumber, extension ladders, and a lot of
sailboat fuel.

Well, I now find myself in a not so "die hard" position where I'm
considering putting a rack on a car, probably the new Mazda 3 hatchback.
But, I have no knowledge of roof racks.

What do you folks use and how do you like it?  I'd also like to hear
about things you DON'T LIKE so I have a better sense of what to steer
clear of.  I know opinion plays into this a lot, but if a lot of folks
have the same opinion, then that clearly speaks volumes.

The rack would be used for 1-4 boats traveling short distances (2-20
miles), and maybe once or twice a year, 1-2 boats for distances up to
about 1500 miles.

I'm 5'9" with good flexibility and physically fit, so the issue of
lifting a boat up into a cradle would not be an issue for the most part.

I do know enough to tie the bow and stern down to the actual car, and
not just rely on the cradle and rack.  Other than that, what can you
tell me????  Best Brands?  Features?  Etc?

Thanks,

Rick
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From: Melissa Reese <melissa_at_bonnyweeboaty.net>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Roof Racks
Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 13:15:13 -0800
Hi Rick,

On Thursday, January 29, 2004, at 12:19:53 PM PDT, you wrote:

> What do you folks use and how do you like it?

I've been using Yakima racks since 1997, and I'm very happy with them.
When I'm just carrying one or two boats, I use the old Yakima "TLC"
cradles. I much prefer the TLC cradles to the new Makos, which don't
work very well with my relatively narrow hard chine boats. By loading
boats on their sheer edges, I've been able to get two singles and one
large tandem on the car (I have fairly long cross bars, and they
extend a bit beyond both sides of the car).

I do wonder though, if you would get better safety and better fuel
efficiency if you used a trailer to haul four boats.

I'm currently driving a Subaru wagon, so I have a bit more room for
rack spacing, but I used the same racks on my old Honda Accord
hatchback, and they were rock solid even with spacing of only about 33
inches. In fact, as the old Honda rusted in my salty local conditions,
I think the racks were about the only things holding the car together!
:-)

In any event, if you visit the rack company web sites (like Yakima and
Thule), you can match your vehicle with an appropriate rack system:

Yakima: http://www.yakima.com/choose_my_rack/

Thule: http://www.thuleracks.com/thule/fg_vehicle.asp

Here are some trailer sites:

http://www.3aweb.com/trailer/

http://www.mrglobal.com/kayak.html

http://www.castlecraft.com/trailers.htm

http://www.bluemountainoutfitters.net/trailers.htm

-- 
Melissa
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From: alex <al.m_at_3web.net>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Roof Racks
Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 13:46:32 -0800
> I'm guilty.  For a few years, I totally ignored the roof rack
> discussions because I'm a die hard truck owner, and I build racks from
> steel pipe that carry my boats, lumber, extension ladders, and a lot of
> sailboat fuel.
>
> Well, I now find myself in a not so "die hard" position where I'm
> considering putting a rack on a car, probably the new Mazda 3 hatchback.
> But, I have no knowledge of roof racks.

BAsically, there are 2 main brands (+ a dozen of less known names and
no-names): Thule and Yakima.  Both have websites with roofracks
descriptions.
First has round bars, second one - rectangular. Both brands have 3 main
types of supporting legs (also called towers) attachment - with
rain-gutters, without them, and using existing rails on your roof. I'm
carrying just one boat at a time and using Yakima saddle on Thule bars
(Yakima saddles can be installed on both round and rectangular bars).  You
might need a stand for 2 or more kayaks on these bars, saddles won't work
for you.
Btw, don't over-estimate your strength.  Putting 50-lbs boat on the roof of
new shiny car without scratching the car requires more efforts and/or more
care than just lifting 50-lbs weight in a gym.  Extention bars, rollers etc
are good things. Rollers (Yakima has them) are particularly useful with
hatchbacks.
Prices on manuafacturers websites can be higher than in your local roof-rack
shop.
Alex.
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From: Keith Wrage <keith.wrage_at_charter.net>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Roof Racks
Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 16:58:26 -0600
A paddler friend of mine recently bought a Saris rack for his new Honda - 
FWIW - he loves this new rack.  Don't have anymore specifics than that.

K
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From: Benno Jones <bennoj_at_isomedia.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Roof Racks
Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 13:55:13 -0800 (PST)
> BAsically, there are 2 main brands (+ a dozen of less known names and
> no-names): Thule and Yakima.  Both have websites with roofracks
> descriptions.
> First has round bars, second one - rectangular. Both brands have 3


??? My Yakima rack (bought in October) has round bars.
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From: alex <al.m_at_3web.net>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Roof Racks
Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 14:34:00 -0800
----- Original Message ----- > 
> ??? My Yakima rack (bought in October) has round bars.
> 

Yes, sorry :-) - Yakima is round, Thule - rectangular.  
Alex.
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From: Geoff Jennings <geoff_at_texaskilonewton.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Roof Racks
Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 14:39:12 -0800 (PST)
Alex had the round/square thing the wrong way round.  Yakima is round, Thule is
square.  

I love my Yakima stuff.  Parts of it are on their third car, over 12 years old
and still going strong.   Great stuff.  

I think Rollers are overrated, my favorite saddles are the least expensive, the
landsharks.   I would recommend glueing some foam to them if you're carrying
glass boats.  But even with foam on them, I can slide a heavy double on from
the back of my Explorer.   I have used one of the (non yakima) rollers that
goes on your back window, and was impressed how much easier it was to load
heavy boats. 

I mostly load singles on my car with no help, though it does sometimes get
interesting  if it's windy.  That said, I'm pretty big/strong. 

If you're carrying multiple boats, make sure you get wide enough bars.  Yakimas
website will give you the minimum width bars you must buy, but you can easily
go longer.   4 boats, even on edge, need decently wide bars.  I think mine are
72", and I can fit 5-6 plastic WW boats up there, and have carried 4 sea
kayaks. 

Yakima stuff is strong, but watch the connection to the roof.  On my explorer I
first had the kind of rack that mounts to the factory roof rails, replacing the
factory cross bars.   A trip to Bahia de Gonzaga in Baja ripped the factory
rails out fo the roof, though still firmly attached to the Yakima gear.   Made
my $150 doller trip into an $800+ trip, as body work was required to fix it.
Major bummer.  

Both companys also sell bike mounts and ski mount and gear boxes.  

First step would be to check availibility, maybe even before buying your car. 
There are some vehicles out there that neither company supports.  

Geoff 

--- Benno Jones <bennoj_at_isomedia.com> wrote:
> > BAsically, there are 2 main brands (+ a dozen of less known names and
> > no-names): Thule and Yakima.  Both have websites with roofracks
> > descriptions.
> > First has round bars, second one - rectangular. Both brands have 3
> 
> 
> ??? My Yakima rack (bought in October) has round bars.

=====
Argh....

Yahoo mail sucks....
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From: Kevin Street <kwsml_at_rogers.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Roof Racks
Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 12:18:31 -0500
On Thu, 2004-01-29 at 17:39, Geoff Jennings wrote:

> Yakima stuff is strong, but watch the connection to the roof.  On my explorer I
> first had the kind of rack that mounts to the factory roof rails, replacing the
> factory cross bars.   A trip to Bahia de Gonzaga in Baja ripped the factory
> rails out fo the roof, though still firmly attached to the Yakima gear.   Made
> my $150 doller trip into an $800+ trip, as body work was required to fix it.
> Major bummer.  

Do you know what caused the roof rails to pull out?  Heavy cross winds,
bouncing over rough roads, driving into the garage without removing the
kayak, ... ?

-- 
Kevin Street
street_at_rogers.com
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From: Tony <tony_at_tesar-reynes.com>
subject: RE: [Paddlewise] Roof Racks
Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 11:23:09 -0600
I have owned both Yakima and Thule racks. I am more happy with the Thule.
They seem to be slightly better constructed/engineered. The biggest issue
for me was the circular construction of the Yak cross bars: no matter how
much I tightened them, the rollers would lean forward or aft on the top of
the cross bar....making for a sore arm and foul language. This leaning
occurred whether I was loading my single or my 21 foot tandem.
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From: Kirby Stevens <K_Stevens_at_telus.net>
subject: RE: [Paddlewise] Roof Racks
Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 12:20:44 -0800
That's easy to rectify.   Try using some waterproof sandpaper, fine grit.
Put a piece around the bar, then tighten it.   The rollers won't move then!

Kirby

www.CoastalWatersRec.com <http://www.CoastalWatersRec.com>
every trip, a new adventure!


-----Original Message-----
From: owner-paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net
[mailto:owner-paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net]On Behalf Of Tony
Sent: Friday, January 30, 2004 9:23 AM
To: geoff_at_texaskilonewton.com; PaddleWise_at_paddlewise.net
Subject: RE: [Paddlewise] Roof Racks


I have owned both Yakima and Thule racks. I am more happy with the Thule.
They seem to be slightly better constructed/engineered. The biggest issue
for me was the circular construction of the Yak cross bars: no matter how
much I tightened them, the rollers would lean forward or aft on the top of
the cross bar....making for a sore arm and foul language. This leaning
occurred whether I was loading my single or my 21 foot tandem.
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From: "Gordon Snapp" <grsnapp_at_charter.net>
To: <paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net>
References: <NDBBJNGJKLNBBHLMMBHICEDOFKAA.cparks_at_fuse.net>
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] CA paddle options
Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 17:33:37 -0800
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I have two suggestions.  For flat water, how about Morro Bay?  I've heard it
compares favorably to Elkhorn Slough (to which I've never been.)  I'd
suggest renting boats at Morro Bay State Park's marina.  They rent
sit-on-tops and canoes.  I think the sit-on-tops are Ocean Kayaks - either
Scramblers or Scuppers or Malibu Twos.  From the State Park's marina you're
right next to the estuary, which is an interesting place, especially if you
like birds.  However, check out the tides before you come and make sure you
start your exploration an hour or two BEFORE high tide, and that you start
heading out of any potential shallow-water strandings before the tide starts
to go out.  Much of that part of the bay is very shallow.  There are some
deeper water channels, but they can be tricky to find.  If you have found
one and gone upstream, it's pretty easy to find your way out.  You can see
them.  But if you're in the shallows - just a few inches of water - and the
tide starts to go out, and you don't know where a channel is, it's really
easy to get stranded.  It happens to people all the time, and there's no
good way out.  Usually the person has to sit and wait for the tide to
change, which could be 12 hours!  If you launch at the right time (while the
tide is still coming in) the man at the rental place can tell you where to
paddle and what to look for, and you shouldn't have a problem.  But once the
tide starts to turn, get out of the shallows!

If this sounds daunting, another good place to go from the marina is across
the bay to the sand spit.  It's a beautiful spot.  I like to parallel the
shore by the sand spit and paddle south to the end of the bay.  It's common
to see lots of birds, seals, even deer once in awhile.

Another excellent paddle on the central coast is around the caves at Shell
Beach.  There are a couple of caves you can paddle in if the tide is right,
and lots of interesting rock formations.  Central Coast Kayaks
(http://centralcoastkayaks.com/) will rent kayaks and drive you to the
launch site - which is only a few blocks from their store.  The rentals I've
seen launching there have been sit-on-tops, but they may have sit-insides
too.

There are also kayak rental places along the Embarcadero in Morro Bay.  From
there you can paddle around the moored boats, across to the sand spit, along
the Embarcadero, and out to the harbor mouth.  You'll see seals, sea lions
(a few), probably an otter or two (there are a couple that seem to live down
past the power plant), and, of course, lots of birds.  Some of these rental
places have "recreational" boats (like Pungos) which I would stay away from,
but you might be able to get a good sit-on-top or a more serious sit-inside
too.

My 2 cents.

Gordon Snapp
Los Osos
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From: Michael Daly <michaeldaly_at_rogers.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Roof Racks
Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 17:51:56 -0500
On 29 Jan 2004 at 15:19, Rick.Sylvia_at_ferguson.com wrote:

> I'm guilty.  For a few years, I totally ignored the roof rack
> discussions because I'm a die hard truck owner, and I build racks from
> steel pipe 

You could build your own rack for the car, but steel pipe would be 
overkill (and possibly trickier).  The easiest is to augment a built-
in rack with a serious cross-member arrangement - but I noticed the 
Mazda 3 doesn't seem to have a roof rack option; maybe you should get 
the Protege 5 instead :-)

> The rack would be used for 1-4 boats traveling short distances (2-20

Three or four boats will likely overload most racks.  Thule tends to 
have a limit of about 150-170 lb and Yakima is similar (and the limit 
has to include the weight of the rack).  Hence you might squeeze 3 
kayaks.  Size is another issue.  One of the best ways to cram several 
kayaks on a car is to use J racks or stackers (vertical bars that 
support the kayak on edge).  However, that might still be too wide 
for that car.  I'm guessing a 48-54 inch wide bar for that car and 
with kayaks at 12-14" deep, you'd really have to squeeze to fit.  I 
know that some folks don't worry about overloading a rack, but you 
may have to contend with an ornery constable (too wide) or the roof 
clearance over your head suddenly disappearing (crunch).

> miles), and maybe once or twice a year, 1-2 boats for distances up to
> about 1500 miles.

I routinely carry two sea kayaks on my Honda hatchback and never 
worry about the distance (Toronto - SC, Toronto - Nova Scotia etc).  
This isn't a limit.  Just don't expect to break the sound barrier 
going up the mountains.

> I'm 5'9" with good flexibility and physically fit, so the issue of
> lifting a boat up into a cradle would not be an issue for the most
> part.

I really like saddles of various types.  They hold the kayak snuggly 
and securely.  I use a single redundant tie down at the bow for short 
trips with double (front and rear) for long trips.

All this being said, either Thule or Yakima will do for most of your 
requirements (BTW, Alex got it backwards - Thule = rectangular bars, 
Yakima = round bars, prolly a typo).  I can't comment on other brands 
other than to say that some look ok.  Compare and judge yourself.

One thing to watch for is the saddle type.  There were (are still?) 
some Yakima saddles that have such hard saddles that they scrape up 
your gel coat.  They've received a lot of flack over it and I think 
it's been fixed - just watch for deals on old stock.

If you have the option of a three door or a five door car, go with 
the five.  It will allow better roof rack mounting without short-rack 
adapters.

Mike
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From: Bob Volin <bobvolin_at_optonline.net>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Roof Racks
Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 20:09:47 -0500
Hi Rick,
   As a matter of strictly personal preference, I like a stacker system.
This consists of two bars (padded), with foldable stacker bars at the
center.  On this system, kayaks are generally set on their sides -- which I
believe makes them less vulnerable to stress cracks from overzealous
strapping or from road-bounce stress.  The stacker system easily permits me
to carry four kayaks.
   As for brands (I have no commercial connection) I like Thule. The bars
fit solidly and don't migrate, the system assembly makes sense to me, and
they are readily removed and replaced if need be.

Here it is as it was last August.....

Cheers,

Bob

[demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type image/jpeg which had a name of car_stacked22.jpg]
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From: Mel Grindol <mel_at_grindol.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Roof Racks
Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 06:24:56 -0700
After having a Yakima rack on my 96 Integra I don't ever want a non-
factory rack on a vehicle again.  With the rack off you permanently see 
where the rack sat on the roof (I've heard it referred to as Yak 
tracks, so I'm not alone with this problem).  Not extremely obvious but 
if you look you see a light shadow from the rubber pads on the rack 
feet.  Plus where the rack clamps down to the door frame has worn 
through the paint.  I'm just glad I live in a salt free environment 
(Kansas)

I would either find a vehicle with a factory rack or go with a 
trailer.  I mounted a hitch on my Integra with very little work.  
Unfortunately I couldn't find anyone who makes a hitch for the Mazda 
3.  I could find them for the 2003 Protege5 so I bet it would also fit 
the 2004 model year.  A good hitch is:

http://www.hidden-hitches.com/index.htm

Just my 2 cents.

Mel
There are 10 kinds of people, those that understand Binary and those 
that don't.
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From: alex <al.m_at_3web.net>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Roof Racks
Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 15:55:08 -0800
> After having a Yakima rack on my 96 Integra I don't ever want a non-
> factory rack on a vehicle again.  With the rack off you permanently see
> where the rack sat on the roof (I've heard it referred to as Yak
> tracks, so I'm not alone with this problem).  Not extremely obvious but
> if you look you see a light shadow from the rubber pads on the rack
> feet.  Plus where the rack clamps down to the door frame has worn
> through the paint.  I'm just glad I live in a salt free environment
> (Kansas)

I have noticed those shadows from the rubber pad on the roof, when removed
Thule rack for winter (didn't do this again next winter - not really
necessary).  Must be due to fading and loss of lustre of the paint on the
rest of the roof (sun exposure + dust scrathes).  It's really very light
effect, hard to notice.
As to the doors - sounds familiar to me.  I'm using Thule pads  that are
clamped without screws around the top part of the door opening (there are
similar ones from Yakima too).  They have to be tightened as much as
possible, battery-operated tools won't do the job (good manual tools will).
My clamp did wear out the paint slightly on the inner door surface, and this
was eliminated after I had centered and tightened the clamps properly.
There must be clearance between the clamp and the metal frame on the car
body, i.e. edge of the roof.  It should be pressed only against the rubber
door sealer, and immersed deeply into this rubber, otherwise it will touch
the paint on the inner door surface.  It is also posssible that my Thule
"fit kit", i.e. brackets for my particular car model fits door contour
better than the one from Yakima for your particular car model, or you've
happened to get some bad quality batch of brackets.  Like I said, I had to
thorougly tighten those brackets to eliminate their contact with the inner
door surface.

Those factory-mounted rails, like guys already said, are of unknown quality,
can be worse than Thule or Yakima clamps. I've read on the Guillemot forum
that some of them need reinforcing - additional screws through the roof.
Car makers don't think about us kayakers when putting those rails on the
roof.
Alex.
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From: Joseph Pylka <jpylka_at_earthlink.net>
subject: RE: [Paddlewise] Roof Racks
Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 21:42:01 -0500
> I have owned both Yakima and Thule racks. I am more happy with the Thule.
> They seem to be slightly better constructed/engineered. The biggest issue
> for me was the circular construction of the Yak cross bars: no matter how
> much I tightened them, the rollers would lean forward or aft on the top of
> the cross bar...

	I also had experience with both, and grew to dislike the Yakima roundness.
It's still a mixed bag, though.  If you need to extend the bars, for
example, the Yakimas will take lengths of electrical conduit inserted
within the pipes.  Much cheaper and stable than what Thule offers, if you
can find them...  
	Also, if you take the racks off between uses, the Yakima is better in that
the towers stay in place on the tubes whereas the Thules will slide all
over once loosened.  That makes for a tougher remount --  you have to
realign everything again...
	But the Thules don't rotate and that's a major consideration.  I think of
them as being sturdier as well.  
Joe P.
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From: Michael Daly <michaeldaly_at_rogers.com>
subject: RE: [Paddlewise] Roof Racks
Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2004 13:35:06 -0500
On 30 Jan 2004 at 21:42, Joseph Pylka wrote:

>  Also, if you take the racks off between uses, the Yakima is better in
>  that
> the towers stay in place on the tubes whereas the Thules will slide
> all over once loosened.  That makes for a tougher remount --  you have
> to realign everything again...

This sounds like the Thules have been assembled incorrectly.  If they 
are put together correctly, they do not slide.   The piece that 
clamps the bar has to be tightened until it locks into place.  It 
sounds like either the pieces weren't tightened enough or the plastic 
bit that locks isn't in place.  Check the instructions again.

Mike
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From: WhiteRabbit <whiterabbit_0117_at_charter.net>
subject: [Paddlewise] San Diego Protected Areas & Outfitter
Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 12:58:31 -0600
Heading to San Diego next Tuesday for a conference.  Can anyone recommend a
day paddling area and outfitter for a midwesterner who is used to dodging
barges and tricky reflected waves, but not dealing with tides, ocean
currents and other hazards.

Robert
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From: Steve Brown <steve_at_brown-web.net>
subject: RE: [Paddlewise] San Diego Protected Areas & Outfitter
Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 11:21:30 -0800
http://www.aqua-adventures.com/

They have tons of boats and gear + excellent instructors/guides. You can
launch right from the shop which is on mission bay and has easy coastal
assess a short paddle out the bay mouth.

Steve Brown

-----Original Message-----


Heading to San Diego next Tuesday for a conference.  Can anyone recommend a
day paddling area and outfitter for a midwesterner who is used to dodging
barges and tricky reflected waves, but not dealing with tides, ocean
currents and other hazards.

Robert
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From: Steve Holtzman <sh_at_actglobal.net>
subject: RE: [Paddlewise] San Diego Protected Areas & Outfitter
Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 11:10:59 -0800
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net 
> [mailto:owner-paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net] On Behalf Of WhiteRabbit
> Heading to San Diego next Tuesday for a conference.  Can 
> anyone recommend a day paddling area and outfitter for a 
> midwesterner who is used to dodging barges and tricky 
> reflected waves, but not dealing with tides, ocean currents 
> and other hazards.
> 

Suggest that you get in touch with Jennifer Kleck or Gregg Knight,
co-owners of Aqua Adventures, 800-269-7792
www.aqua-adventures.com

They are both great people who won't steer you wrong on any advice and
they will rent a boat in first class condition.

I highly recommend them. They can also give you all of the local
knowledge you need on where to paddle.

Steve Holtzman
Southern CA.
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From: alex <al.m_at_3web.net>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Roof Racks
Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 14:23:27 -0800
> This sounds like the Thules have been assembled incorrectly.  If they
> are put together correctly, they do not slide.   The piece that
> clamps the bar has to be tightened until it locks into place.  It
> sounds like either the pieces weren't tightened enough or the plastic
> bit that locks isn't in place.

My Thule rack with towers etc was bought used (new one costs roughly like a
used kayak :-), and laminated skin of the bars was already rugged, which
made inserting of that small plastic bit (I recall there was a small bit
between the bar and the tower) both difficult and unnecessary.  With that
small piece in place, it was impossible to tighten the screw so that it
would be locked completely.  May be this bit is necessary for unused bars -
which will acquire dents on their skin after the first season anyway.  Or
for carrying heavy loads.

I would agree with the guys here that rectangular crossection of Thule bars
is better, though I personallly find round Yakima bars more esthetically
pleasing. No big deal; both brands are well-made.
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From: Matt Broze <mkayaks_at_oz.net>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Roof Racks
Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2004 19:02:26 -0800
Geoff wrote: <Snip>>>>>>>A trip to Bahia de Gonzaga in Baja ripped the
factory
rails out fo the roof, though still firmly attached to the Yakima gear.
Made
my $150 doller trip into an $800+ trip, as body work was required to fix it.
Major bummer. <Snip><<<<<<

Kevin asked:
>>>>>Do you know what caused the roof rails to pull out?  Heavy cross winds,
bouncing over rough roads, driving into the garage without removing the
kayak, ... ?<<<<<<

I'm curious as well. My bet is that there were not any bow and stern lines
from the front and back of the car to the kayaks (or if there were they were
very loose at the time the rack was damaged). That combined with the rough
roads and sudden weight changes (due to the kayaks) from the front to back
on the rack. I've had some experience with those same Baja roads. I even
managed to deform the rain gutters a little on an 1986 Toyota Van by
bottoming out the springs (more accurately, torsion bars) several times on
those roads. I also put a huge dent in that Toyota's oil pan in the Gonzaga
area. Of course, I had three singles with a lot of the gear in each kayak up
there on the racks.  That just might have had something to do with the
damage.

Speaking of cars and kayakers, I sure miss rain gutters. Maybe this is the
issue we should all write our congressmen and car companies about :-).
Either bring back rain gutters on cars or make decent factory racks that are
suitable for carrying three or four kayaks (to encourage carpooling and less
vehicles needed for long shuttles--if you want to argue "green"). I think it
was the mileage requirements that were instrumental in eliminating rain
gutters on most cars in the first place though. The slight added drag from
rain gutters would hurt a little on compliance testing. Of course, in the
real world, those paddlers who leave their kayak racks on the car all the
time are busy trying to make up for any gas savings due to no rain gutters
being on most cars.
We could make it a sales issue with the car companies. I eliminated half of
the minivans (of the four available back in 1986) from consideration because
they didn't have rain gutters.

Matt Broze
www.marinerkayaks.com
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From: Geoff Jennings <geoff_at_texaskilonewton.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Roof Racks
Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2004 20:06:01 -0800
> I'm curious as well. My bet is that there were not any bow and stern lines
> from the front and back of the car to the kayaks (or if there were they
were
> very loose at the time the rack was damaged).

Well, you'd be wrong.  I think we bet one of your boats right?  =>

Just ot be clear, we are talking here about the rails that mount to the roof
of SUV's and minivans, that allow fore and aft placement of the factory
crossbars, not raingutters or any other welded on part.

I had bow and stern lines, simple braided nylon, snugged up and tied using a
truckers hitch, although I certainly could have made them tighter, it would
have risked damage to the boat.   Any movement there would be due to stretch
in the rope.

The attachement to the roof was pretty flimsy.  I think, if memory serves,
there were only 5 attachment points on each rail.  The metal was bent and
deformed where  bolts were.  I can't really describe the mounts, they
weren't true star bolts, the were simply pressed in with maybe a millimeter
all round the hole "behind" the sheetmetal.

When I removed the rack completely (upon my return home), there were one
bolts that were still attached to the sheetmetal, on opposite corners.  I
pulled them out easily by hand!

The Yakima rails I replaced them with have twice the attachemnet points, and
much more secure seeming mounts.

While working at a retail store, I saw similar things happen to two
customers cars, one also in mexico, and one on the freeway, although the
freeway one was a couple of SOT, and I don't believe tiedowns were used.
That said, it still speaks to the fact that those attachements are sometimes
pretty cheesy.





 I've had some experience with those same Baja roads. I even
> managed to deform the rain gutters a little on an 1986 Toyota Van by
> bottoming out the springs (more accurately, torsion bars) several times on
> those roads. I also put a huge dent in that Toyota's oil pan in the
Gonzaga
> area. Of course, I had three singles with a lot of the gear in each kayak
up
> there on the racks.  That just might have had something to do with the
> damage.

So your damage is excusable, but mine is due to negligence?   I had two
kayaks, including a SEDA double, in a very heavy duty layup.  The Seda
Double (as you know Matt) is pretty long, so  there is a fair bit of torque
on the rack when things do move.

Geoff
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