Greetings.... I'll soon be starting a car trip of approximately 2000+ miles with kayak on my vehicle's roof racks. I have a set of Thule Hull-A-Port racks which place the kayak on its side and I also have a set of foam forms which fit the Thule bar and keep the kayak sitting upright. My question: what is the best way of transporting the kayak - on its side or upright? I see some (hull) strength advantages of transporting on the side, especially with a fairly long overhang front and back with tie-downs adding to the stress on the kayak. Thoughts? Many thanks... -- cheers, Stephen *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> My question: what is the best way of transporting the kayak - on its side > or upright? I see some (hull) strength advantages of transporting on the > side, especially with a fairly long overhang front and back with tie-downs > adding to the stress on the kayak. Thoughts? Many thanks... I really think this is much less important than how reliably it is fixed in either position; besides wind resistance will be higher when it's on the side, which would reduce reliability and increase your gas expenses. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Stephen wrote: - > what is the best way of transporting the kayak G'Day, Re your question. Is there a risk of developing a permanent warp or bend in the hull car topping on a long trip? Is it wise to move the position of the boat on the racks every so often on a long trip to reduce the chance of this happening. All the best, PeterO *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> Is there a risk of developing a permanent warp or bend in > the hull car topping on a long trip? Is it wise to move the position of the > boat on the racks every so often on a long trip to reduce the chance of this > happening. For polyethylene - probably so. For fiberglass - that's where you've scared me, Peter. If there is such a risk for transported kayak (glass), then there will be the same risk for a kayak stored on the rack, if the place is hot enough (which is usually not the case in BC). What I would like to know, - is there such a risk (for glass boats)? *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Alex wrote >For polyethylene - probably so. For fiberglass > - that's where you've scared me, Peter. G'Day, I observed one heavy fibreglass boat develop a very slight bend in the keel after a 500km journey on Thule racks, in hot weather and wind, but it disappeared after a week (i.e between paddles). Years ago another fibreglass boat stored across round cross section rails developed a slight and permanent bend - reverse rocker! I fitted flat wooden boards lined with old carpet across the length of the rails and the bend did not get worse, nor did it seem to affect the boats performance. These days I store on a carpet lined flat wooden shelf or on canvas slings eg two folding seats, with no problems. When travelling I also take care to locate the boat so that there is no imbalance in the load at each support. As far as I can tell both boats were properly cured. As far as distributed support goes, Thule racks must surely be up there with the best. As a non craftsman I was puzzled after being given a carpenters level for Christmas - but now I'm glad to have it! All the best, PeterO *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I've missed several of the earlier posts on this subject, but the ones I've seen seem to indicate that the boats are carried on the Thule or Yakima bars alone ? I've always used carriers on the bars to distribute the load. For an inexpensive option, foam carriers that fit onto the round Yakima bars work fine, and I've used this type for years. They conform to the kayak, rather than the kayak conforming to them. Plus, I transport my kayaks, both hardshell and SOF, deck down. If I'm going to deform anything, I'd much rather it be the deck. Tom *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Sun, 14 Mar 2004 07:19:37 -0700, Tom wrote: >For an inexpensive option, foam carriers that fit onto the round Yakima bars >work fine, and I've used this type for years. They conform to the kayak, rather >than the kayak conforming to them. My original question concerned the pros/cons of transporting a kayak on its side (eg, with a Thule Hull-A-Port) versus deck-up on a foam carrier, which is what I've tended to do over the years. One advantage to the side-style is space saving (and perhaps strength), while one disadvantage is increased (side) wind resistance. >Plus, I transport my kayaks, both hardshell and SOF, deck down. If I'm >going to deform anything, I'd much rather it be the deck. Good point, Tom. I have a psychological adversion to deck down because I'm worried about losing hatch/cockpit covers (ie, they will just fall off). :) -- cheers, Stephen *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Stephen wrote: - >My original question concerned the pros/cons of >transporting a kayak on its side (eg, with a Thule >Hull-A-Port) versus deck-up on a foam carrier, G'Day Stephen and Paddlewise, For fibreglass construction, where it is possible to vary the layup within the hull and deck, it may depend on the shape and construction of the boat. Some fibreglass kayaks have lightly built decks and sides and localised pressure points for fittings, whereas the keel area may be relatively strong. I've felt boats in which it was possible to depress the deck and side by hand but not the keel. All the best, PeterO *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Stephen wrote: - >My original question concerned the pros/cons of >transporting a kayak on its side (eg, with a Thule >Hull-A-Port) versus deck-up on a foam carrier, G'Day Stephen and Paddlewise, Following on from my previous post another concern re transporting a kayak on its side could be the additional stress placed on the deck hull seam. All the best, PeterO *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On 14 Mar 2004 at 10:01, Stephen Bird wrote: > I have a psychological adversion to deck down because > I'm worried about losing hatch/cockpit covers (ie, they will just fall > off). Some manufacturers recommend _not_ carrying deck down - Current Designs for example. Some North American kayaks have decks that are lighter than their hulls - hence hull down is stronger. The famous British Heavies have thick deck layups and can be transported deck down. All hatch and cockpit covers should have a tether. Even if they come off, they shouldn't go too far. Whether on the car or on the water, you don't want to lose a cover. FWIW, I wouldn't worry about the difference between saddles, J carriers or stackers for how they affect the kayak. Pick any one based on other considerations (like how many kayaks you want on the roof or ease of loading) and go with it. All three systems are used by lots of folks and I'd guess that most problems are "user error". If you have a plastic kayak, watch out for the effects of heat or really long storage on a rack. If a composite kayak deforms on a rack, buy a better kayak. Mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Sun, 14 Mar 2004 20:16:27 +1100, Peter wrote: >These days I store on a carpet lined flat wooden shelf or on canvas slings eg two >folding seats, with no problems. Over winter here in Central Canada I store my kayaks by hanging them from nylon straps with the kayak tilted on edge. I recall the analogy to an egg where pressure can be withstood fairly well from the ends while poor from the sides. Apparently kayaks can withstand more force from the edges rather than top to bottom. I also recall from my whitewater days placing interior hard foam blocks to keep the deck/hull from compressing. >As far as distributed support goes, Thule racks must surely be up there with >the best. Agreed.... however some difficulty can arise when the Thule rack must be attached to a vehicle's fixed points on the roof rather than where one could increase the width between the bars for load distribution. My experience is mostly with the Honda CR-V and Element with the latter having fixed points relatively close together, thus there is a lot of kayak hanging out ahead/behind the bars. It is good advice not to tightened the bow/stern ties too firmly. -- cheers, Stephen *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
What I would like to know, - is there such a risk (for glass boats)? *************************************************************************** I have two slight but noticeable depressions in the bottom of my Romany Explorer as a result of filling the hatches with water while the kayak was on the car (I was looking for leaks). More recently I noticed some slight, narrow depressions on the sheer where the hull meets the deck. Those are from hanging the kayaks using 5/16" halyard line. (It's time to add seat belt webbing to those lines.) So yes, fiberglass can deform, even on a British "heavy," but nowhere near as much as polyethylene. Chuck Holst *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Stephen Bird wrote: > > >Plus, I transport my kayaks, both hardshell and SOF, deck down. If I'm > >going to deform anything, I'd much rather it be the deck. > > Good point, Tom. I have a psychological adversion to deck down because I'm > worried about losing hatch/cockpit covers (ie, they will just fall off). :) > -- > cheers, Stephen If the covers can fall off they can BLOW off! If your covers can handle a 6' breaking wave they can easily handle the winds loads of driving. If the boat is deck down it doesn't really need a cockpit cover so that is one less thing to lose. When I build a boat I make a cradle to match. The curves are made to fit the deck exactly with about 1" closed cell foam padding on saddles that are at least 4" wide. I have never had any hull distortion problems. For maximum strength I usually make the saddles fit at the location of the bulkheads in the boat. The custom cradle is then bolted to the car top carrier. Rigidly connecting the two rails together makes the carrier stronger too. michael *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
alex wrote: > > > Is there a risk of developing a permanent warp or bend in > > the hull car topping on a long trip? Is it wise to move the position of > the > > boat on the racks every so often on a long trip to reduce the chance of > this > > happening. > > For polyethylene - probably so. For fiberglass - that's where you've scared > me, Peter. > If there is such a risk for transported kayak (glass), then there will be > the same risk for a kayak stored on the rack, if the place is hot enough > (which is usually not the case in BC). What I would like to know, - is > there such a risk (for glass boats)? There is a risk for ALL BOATS and even big ships. When any boat or ship is out of the water it must be supported properly or the hull will be distorted. For our small boats it is not that hard as the boats are very strong compared to their total weight but it is a good idea to spread the load over as much of the hull length as is convenient but always at least two supports, each a few inches wide. When boats were screwed together out of pieces of wood, and long overhanging ends were the fashion some boats had the problem that the ends were heavy enough to droop over time. This is because the weight was full length of the boat but the support was just in the middle. Our kayak will never see this kind of problem as they are far stronger for their weight and more rigid. Just something to keep things in perspective. michael *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I've previously had problems with cockpit covers coming off during driving. The wind flowing over the cover pulls it up not forces it down and, because of this, covers that are strong enough to stay on in use can come loose on a drive. In the past, I made sure I had a tie-down crossing the elastic sticking out of the back of the cover; that way if it came loose it would simply flap until I spotted it and could pull over and reattach it. Lately, I had a custom cover made and sewed a strap to the center of the cover that wraps around the boat and keeps the center of the cover from coming up and loosening the cover. It would probably be possible to attach a strap to a off-the-shelf cover as well. > > Good point, Tom. I have a psychological adversion to deck down because I'm > > worried about losing hatch/cockpit covers (ie, they will just fall off). :) > > -- > > cheers, Stephen > > If the covers can fall off they can BLOW off! *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
1. Plastic boats are well-known to deform readily if not supported at bulkheads. That's a significant problem. 2. On the other hand, I've lugged my fiberglas boats many tens of thousands of miles on Yakima gear, and stored same suspended on two-inch webbing, all hull-down, and never had a problem. I have also hauled one fiberglas boat on its side over thousand miles, with no detectable hull deformation, again, supported by Yakima gear (the old TLC cradles). Albeit none of this was in hot summer weather (i.e., temps never exceeded 80F), I doubt fiberglas boats deform under these conditions. Here's why: for one side to elongate, the other has to compress. How can this happen? In addition, fiberglas composite is strongest in extension, where the load would be placed if you transport on a side. I think this is a nonproblem. 3. On the third hand, many sea kayak fiberglas decks are very lightweight, and not a good choice for transport. Some lay-ups are worse than others. I'm certain of this, because I own an Eddyline Wind Dancer (vintage 1993), and have the gel coat cracks to prove it, from sliding my hefty bod over the rear deck during re-entries. And, I repaired an older boat of the same model and manufacture which had been oilcanned in 6-foot surf. Where did it oilcan? Middle of the top deck, forward of the cockpit about 8 inches, where the geometry and construction of the deck would make it tough to fold. Those decks are too light for robust sea kayaking. (I have reinforced them underneath with a layer or two of 6 oz glass and epoxy -- now they don't collapse.) -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Mon, 15 Mar 2004 16:25:00 -0800, Dave Kruger wrote: >Albeit none of this was in hot summer weather (i.e., temps never exceeded >80F), I doubt fiberglas boats deform under these conditions. <snip> >I think this is a nonproblem. Good suggestions, all. Thank you. My kayaks are 2 P&H & 1 Valley, so the Brits have it in my marina. :-) I'm going to test-drive the Thule H-A-P with the P&H Sirius.... with the foam cradles for backup. Thanks again! -- cheers, Stephen *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I carry my glass boat upright. I carry my plastic boat in the same rack, but I turn it over before tying it down, to prevent hull distortion. A side rack will eliminate this problem. The only down side I've seen to side mounts is they are hard to load in the wind. You need someone to hold the boat in place so you can tie it down. Of course, if it's really windy both types require a little help. On the plus side, you can haul three boats on their side in the room two boats would use carried upright. Were you hoping for some clear cut advise? No way. Kayaking in the most variable pondering and counter intuitive sport I've ever done. It's also the most enjoyable. Here's hopeing you have a great trip. If your coming to So Cal let us know. CKF (California Kayak Friends) would be happy to take you on a paddle or two. Mike --- Stephen Bird <StephenBird_at_superaje.com> wrote: > Greetings.... > > I'll soon be starting a car trip of approximately > 2000+ miles with kayak on > my vehicle's roof racks. I have a set of Thule > Hull-A-Port racks which > place the kayak on its side and I also have a set of > foam forms which fit > the Thule bar and keep the kayak sitting upright. > > My question: what is the best way of transporting > the kayak - on its side > or upright? I see some (hull) strength advantages of > transporting on the > side, especially with a fairly long overhang front > and back with tie-downs > adding to the stress on the kayak. Thoughts? Many > thanks... *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
[Moderator's Note: Content unaltered. Excessive quoting (including headers/footers/sig lines/extraneous text from previous posts, etc.) have been removed. Please edit quoted material in addition to removing header/trailers when replying to posts.] Why would wind resistance be different as long as the kayak isn't mounted crossways? > > besides wind resistance will be higher when it's on the > side, which would reduce reliability and increase your gas expenses. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> Why would wind resistance be different as long as the kayak isn't mounted > crossways? > There is often a crosswind, unless you drive in a dead calm weather, were the only wind would be the headwind created by vehicle motion.. Many times I noticed side wind gusts while driving fast in a windy weather, with or without a kayak. It even felt like those gusts were stronger when I was driving faster, though I can't understand why. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Volin" <bobvolin_at_optonline.net> > > Why would wind resistance be different as long as the kayak isn't mounted > crossways? Bob is referring to a comment made that a boat on its side has higher wind resistance, would reduce reliability and increase gas expenses. I would suspect that there is no greater wind resistance to the car and roofed boat in this configuration than in the boat being cockpit up (or down). It's the same forward profile either way. But there may be an advantage for a side mounted boat. The wind tunnel effect of forward motion tends to have a good deal of the forces trying to lift the bow end of the boat. This in turn pushes the rear end of the boat down on the rear of the car. In effect the downward forces on the rear are like adding considerable weight to the rear of the car that results in more tire wear. I think the car also has its front end lift some making for a higher profile in its forward motion. This would reduce gas mileage a bit. Side mounted boats also have less bending and torque effect on the boat itself as it moves through the wind forces of forward motion of the car. The boat on its side resists bending better than if laid flat. A test to try is to take a nominal 1 X 2 piece of wood two feet long. It is harder to bend it if laid vertically as opposed to horizontally. Of course, this is discussion that could easily be sidestepped. Why put a kayak on the roof at all? Whatever happened to the good old practice of putting the kayak inside the kayak as has been done since cars were first invented. It so happens that cars and folding kayaks began around the same time. Roof racks were invented many years later when people abandoned the old ways and started using rigid kayaks. They were forced then to figure out how to carry them and started arguing about cockpit up, cockpit down, side mount, trailering etc. If people had stuck with folding kayaks then there would never have been a PaddleWise that only became necessary for all the vexing problems associated with rigid boats that needed storage and carrying solutions and complicated rescue techniques, most of which aren't much needed in foldables. ralph diaz *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Ralph Wrote: >>> If people had stuck with folding kayaks then there would never have been a PaddleWise that only became necessary for all the vexing problems associated with rigid boats that needed storage and carrying solutions and complicated rescue techniques, most of which aren't much needed in foldables. If commercial folding kayaks had performance standards equal to most hardshells, you would have a convincing argument. However, in reality, most commercial folders simply don't. In effect, you are comparing apples to watermellons. I've transported hardshell kayaks cross country numerous times with no problems , though my folders in the trunk do allow for greater peace of mind while doing so. The number and type of hardshell kayaks being sold today vs folding kayaks should indicate that the buying public wants more than greater gear storage and a "sense" of security that comes from paddling a massive folder. Speed, maneuverability, and paddling efficiency are the features of today's kayaks, as derived from the ancient Aleut and Inuit types, and sales would indicate that these are the qualities desired by most modern paddlers. Paddling skills worldwide have grown considerably over the years, and paddlers want boats that keep pace with those skills. The key to paddling safely is in the development of paddling skills, and not relying on the width of your boat to keep you out of trouble. Commercial folders have a special place in the kayaking world, but it's such a unique niche that it can't be realistically compared with other types due to configuration and performance differences. Feathercraft has made strides in leveling the playing field, but there is still a long way to go. Tom *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> If commercial folding kayaks had performance standards equal to most > hardshells, you would have a convincing argument. However, in reality, most > commercial folders simply don't. /skip/..... > > The number and type of hardshell kayaks being sold today vs folding kayaks > should indicate that the buying public wants more than greater gear storage > and a "sense" of security that comes from paddling a massive folder. /skip/ ..... Paddling > skills worldwide have grown considerably over the years, and paddlers want > boats that keep pace with those skills. Yes, they are difficult to compare. I own both types, and would like to expand both parts of this "collection". There is more to folders' disadvantage than just performance. Folder needs to be assembled, then dissembled, and then taken care of - washed with freshwater, frame lubricated (at least, joints of Feathercraft frame). No need to lubricate wooden frames (Klepper, Pouch), but Klepper skin takes hours and hours to dry. As I have noticed, folders owners tend to use their folders as non-folders, keeping them assembled and cartopping whenever possible. Folders are more difficult for loading cargo than harshells, due to ribs and stringers inside (and lack of hatches in may of them). All of them need floatation bags, which adds to assembling time and reduces available cargo room. I wouldn't judge by sales volumes, though. People's mentality is hard to vercome - many don't even know that there is something between inflatable boats and hardshells. Folders cause suspicions and *false* sense of insecurity of those who unfamiliar with them (I was asked once, for how many days floder's skin will hold before degrading and falling apart in salty water :-). They are also more expensive at the beginning; well, replacing parts and later - skin, they may live forever, but this is again not for free. One justified sense of security related to folders is their stability, especially of those wider than 25", and most of them are. This, together with roomier cockpit and wider seat, is what attracts people to folders like Kleppers or Folbots - stable craft for fishing and snorkeling, where you can stretch your legs and knees, and sit in the position comfortable enough for many hours, and change this position many times and even stand up TAD. The price for this comfort due to extra width are speed and maneurability, and of course, it is hard to speak about developing paddling skills or technique in a 28-30" wide folder. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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