Doug Lloyd posted: > Anyone else had >experience with digital/ analogue differences? We experienced it in the Everglades. We had taken a wrong turn in the mangrove channels and ended up in a large lake that had several types of trail markers, but none of the type that we'd been following. My husband's tri-band phone had one bar of service. My new digital flip phone had no service whatsoever. Using the tri-band, we were able to reach the outfitter and get the assistance we needed, although it took a number of calls and some shouting as the signal kept breaking up. GPS would have helped -- that's what I kept telling myself. Then, as we double backed up the channels, we met a fisherman with a GPS unit, and he was having trouble getting reception due to the overhanging mangroves. Perhaps VHF would have been a good solution here. A better map than the vague photocopied one the outfitter gave us would definitely have been an aid. The biggest lesson I learned was to closely quiz outfitters about trail markings and about whether any changes had occurred to the trail that might present problems. As it turns out, an older trail had been reopened a day or so before, and the outfitter knew that several paddlers had run in to trouble. The turn that we missed was marked with a piece of fluorescent string. I had actually taken a photo of bromeliads on the stump that had the string, but didn't grasp at that time that the string had a Very Important Meaning. We made it out, but the 'glades were getting quite dark by the time we reached the take-out point. Margot Pantalone mpantalo_at_tennessee.edu *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Margot wrote: >Perhaps VHF would have been a good solution here. G'Day Margot, Its not at all certain VHF would have been any better. I routinely carry VHF to communicate with coastguards, they are quite useful in that role but are limited to line of sight unless there are repeater stations nearby. I'm frequently unable to communicate with other boats by VHF. Its always puzzled me why hand held shortwave transceivers aren't sold. They would surely represent the most reliable hand held communication in remote areas. All the best *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On 9 Jun 2004 at 7:03, PeterO wrote: > Its always puzzled me why hand held shortwave transceivers aren't > sold. They are. There are lots of 2 meter handhelds (referred to as HT) out there last I checked. You need a shortwave license of course, but they exist. You can find a bunch from here (arbitrarily chosen web site): <http://www.ac6v.com/radiodealers.htm> Mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
G'Day Keith, Michael and Michael, Keith and Michael - Thanks for the information on 2m and 6m transceivers. Unfortunately wavelengths below 10 meters are really in the VHF range and starting to get problematic for long distance communication unless you use exotic techniques or are lucky with solar flares. Michael Neverdosky corrected me on my terminology, thanks, HF is what I mean and preferably below 15Mhz. I don't think its necessary to go as far as using Morse. What happened to SSB, frequency hopping, spread spectrum or digital modulation methods? Why can't these technologies and the requisite frequencies be made available to the broader community? Regarding aerials a 2 or 3 m extendable whip antenna with balun might be inefficient but should still get more range than a VHF unit. I should think 1 to 10 miles would satisfy most kayakers. Flying a 22ft antennae on the end of a balloon or kite might be fun! All the best, PeterO *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On 9 Jun 2004 at 19:28, PeterO wrote: > G'Day Keith, Michael and Michael, > > Keith and Michael - Thanks for the information on 2m and 6m > transceivers. Unfortunately wavelengths below 10 meters are really in > the VHF range This was a "duh!" moment on my part - I saw "shortwave", thought "ham" and made the jump to "2m HT" without thinking it thru. "Shortwave = ham" but "Ham not necessarily = shortwave". Thanks to Bruce for the polite correction and sorry for the misinformation, Peter. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Hi All Australian Canoeing is a not for profit organisation whose mission is to build the sport of paddling for the benefit of all. We are in the process of running a series of programs around Australia that are designed to assist in raising the skills of paddlers (specifically people in leadership, instructional or guiding positions), however all paddlers are welcome to attend our programs. We recently conducted one at Barrington in NSW, it was great, however we have been doing some learning and we think this will be better OEG at Eildon have agreed to host our next development program this time with twice the spice; 2 Elite athletes offering tips and coaching (Chad Meek and Andrew Farrance) Another enournmous range of equipment from Victorian manufacturers and suppliers Bigger and better injury prevention More competitions with bigger and better prizes (not that the last lot were bad in any way) Take the time to come to Eildon Thursday June 24 and Friday June 25 Details at http://www.canoe.org.au/default.asp?MenuID=Education/99/0,Professional%20Dev elopment/92/5333 Ian Dewey Manager - Canoe Education Australian Canoeing PO Box 666 Glebe NSW 2037 (02) 9552 4500 *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Hello again, Amateur radio 2 meter transceivers are not HF, they are VHF just like marine VHF radio. On the other hand, there are a lot of 2 meter repeaters- some 7000 in the US alone. You do need a amateur radio license to use one. Bruce N7CEE Flagstaff, AZ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
PeterO wrote: > > Margot wrote: > >Perhaps VHF would have been a good solution here. > > G'Day Margot, > > Its not at all certain VHF would have been any better. I routinely carry VHF > to communicate with coastguards, they are quite useful in that role but are > limited to line of sight unless there are repeater stations nearby. I'm > frequently unable to communicate with other boats by VHF. > > Its always puzzled me why hand held shortwave transceivers aren't sold. They > would surely represent the most reliable hand held communication in remote > areas. > I could write a book on this but will stick to a short post. There are two major factors in reliable communications. First you need a radio link and second you need someone on the other end. Marine VHF is good in many places because it works well over line of sight paths and the Coast Guard and other boaters are on the other end. The problem is that there are lots of places where the paddler is not in a position to be within line of sight of a coast guard unit or other boater. If by shortwave you mean radios in the high frequency (HF) section of the radio spectrum then there are several drawbacks. First, the antennas must be large or they are very inefficient. Second, you need frequencies to use. The marine HF frequencies are useless as there are no radios approved for use on them that are useful for a kayaker. There are frequencies for Ham Radio but you must have the proper license. Even then, because of low demand there are very few (none really) handheld radios for Ham HF. Is there a solution? Several but they all require a considerable investment of time and effort. There are lots of simple, low power (QRP in Ham terminology) radios that are small and light. Usually they are CW (continuous wave, morse code) only, so you need to know or learn morse code. It is not hard to learn and is fun to use. Then you need to build or buy a radio and come up with an antenna system. Choice of frequency and antenna system are dependent on your goals. For reliable communications over a range of a few hundred miles the best way to go is called Near Vertical Incidence Skywave, NVIS. To do this we use a fairly low frequency and a low antenna that radiates most of the power straight up. The signal bounces straight back down and covers a radius of a few hundred miles. This is extremely reliable and I used it to communicate with field parties in Antarctica when I was there some years ago. The problem here is that HF NVIS is something that you probably won't do afloat in a kayak but it will work great in camp. Of course, if you have LOTS of money a satellite phone will work great. michael N6CHV *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Speaking as an amateur radio operator, the problem with shortwave (HF) radio is that the antenna needs to be fairly large because of the lower frequencies used. For example, I have a small ham transceiver that's the size of a paperback book, but it needs a wire antenna of at least 22 feet. So, although HF is difficult from a kayak, it could be used on shore. Bruce Flagstaff, Arizona *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Bruce wrote >I have a small ham transceiver that's the size of a paperback >book, but it needs a wire antenna of at least 22 feet. G'Day Bruce, Sounds neat. Is it a home made unit or commercial? Are similar units available for marine frequencies, with a minimum numer of hand controls? I'm of the impression that it is inefficient but not disastrous to use short aerials, if necessary with baluns, in low power transmitters. For example they are sometimes used in healthcare and for tracking animals. Peter Rattenbury and I recently demonstrated that transmitter power wasn't the issue with on water kayak communication using VHF. At least in our location it was cliffs getting in the way. Whether we used 1W or 5W didn't seem to matter. I think one of the reasons hand held HF radios are not available in recreational boating is because they are too complicated. Particularly with regard to appropriate frequency selection. But nowadays it should be possible to make HF radios more user friendly. All the best, PeterO *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Hi Peter, My little radio is an Elecraft KX1 (www.elecraft.com). It's built from a kit and it's a CW (Morse) only transceiver, so only suitable for the portion of the ham population that's into that. It's designed specifically for backpacking and weighs a pound with 6 AA lithium batteries. A voice HF radio has to be single side band (SSB), which is the standard for marine, aricraft, and amateur HF because of it's efficiency- that is, SSB gets through with less power tham AM or FM. There's no reason a handheld size HF SSB radio couldn't be made- in fact, there was at least one made for the 10 meter ham band. I think it's more a matter of lack of (perceived) market. SSB radios are a little more complicated than FM because you have to be able to fine tune the received signal, but you're right, it doesn't have to be THAT complicated. Short antennas (such as used for HF mobile from a car or power boat) are less efficient than large antennas, which has to be made up with power. Still, lots of low power hams (the QRP crowd) make contacts over thousands of miles with less than 5 watts into 7 or 8 foot mobile antennas. But those antennas are still much larger than the typical VHF handhelds "rubber duck" antenna. I carry my KX1 on most backpack trips, partly for fun but also for emergencies. I'm often the only ham and the only one who can use Morse, so also long as someone else gets hurt, not me.... I'm not an experienced sea kayaker (most of my experience is white water and small inland lakes here in Arizona), but I think that an HF SSB radio, whether marine or amateur, couldn't be counted on out on the water. Between the low power and inefficient, low antenna you could not make reliable contact in an emergency. You would have to reach land where you could set up a better (usually wire) antenna. On the other hand, some have experimented with long wire antennas supported by balloons and kites... something to think about. You're certainly right about power vs. line of sight on VHF. There are ham 2 meter handhelds that are credit card sized that put out 0.3 watts. They work fine as long as they're line of sight to a repeater or another transceiver. Cheers, Bruce Flagstaff, Arizona *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> From: "PeterO" <rebyl_kayak_at_iprimus.com.au> > Its always puzzled me why hand held shortwave transceivers aren't sold. They > would surely represent the most reliable hand held communication in remote > areas. There are such transceivers- Mizuho of Japan made a wide range of them. The problem, though, is antennas. VHF radios can get by with stubby inductively-loaded antennas with a physical size of perhaps a tenth of a wavelength, but lower frequencies require proportionately bigger antennas A transceiver operating around 4MHz would require an antenna of quarter-wave size (roughly 18 meters in length for reasonable efficience. You can use inductive loading to make a reasonably effective antenna of perhaps 2-3 meters in length, but efficiency goes way down. Remember those giant WWII walkie-talkies you'd see John Wayne carrying in the movies? They operated around 3-4 MHz, used a ton of batteries, and had a useful range of about a mile. -- mike -------------------------- Michael Edelman http://foldingkayaks.org http://findascope.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Hi All; Interesting thread. I've had my eye on one of these: http://www.rigpix.com/tokyohypower/ht750.htm I guess it transmits into a whip antenna of eight foot or so... Obviously it isn't 'marinised' but I like the size. But one of my planned retirement hobbies is to learn CW, or more accurately re-learn and get up to speed on Morse. I like your approach Bruce, CW for fun. Especially in these days of packet radio, satellites and repeaters. Anyway if you all have any comments on the Hy-Power? Cheers, Peter Rattenbury, Wollongong. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
There is an article in the April 2004 issue of Sea Kayaker about using handheld, submersible HTs. -merlin > > > > Its always puzzled me why hand held shortwave transceivers aren't sold. > They > > would surely represent the most reliable hand held communication in remote > > areas. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Here is one unit I found - submersible, multiple battery options, small. No knowledge of ham/shortwave equipment so just passing along the link; http://www.universal-radio.com/catalog/ht/0777.html *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On 8 Jun 2004 at 21:57, Keith Wrage wrote: > Here is one unit I found - submersible, multiple battery options, > small. No knowledge of ham/shortwave equipment so just passing along That's got everything I want in a marine VHF! I wish I could get a submersible mic for mVHF - then I could pocket the unit and just keep the mic on the shoulder strap of the PFD. Mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> From: "PeterO" <rebyl_kayak_at_iprimus.com.au> ... > ...What happened to SSB, frequency hopping, spread spectrum or > digital modulation methods? Why can't these technologies and the requisite > frequencies be made available to the broader community? Regarding aerials a > 2 or 3 m extendable whip antenna with balun might be inefficient but should > still get more range than a VHF unit. I should think 1 to 10 miles would > satisfy most kayakers. It's possible and not expensive. There are many low-powered, low cost HF radios out there. MFJ will sell you a 20 Meter single band SSB radio for under $300. Add waterproof cases, a whip antenna, a small laptop and a free piece of software to generate PSK32 and you have a reliable long-range digital communications system. Might be a little hard to operate on the water, though. -- mike -------------------------- Michael Edelman http://foldingkayaks.org http://findascope.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
PeterO wrote: ... > The set up for PSK32 (Is that phase shift keying for morse or TTY?) sounds > very cost effective but as you say not practical for on water use. Yes, it's full ASCII communication via low-bandwidth phase shift keying, meant for keyboard communications. Perhaps if you had a small waterproof computer- or even a PDA with audio i/o. It just might work. -- mike -------------------------- Michael Edelman http://foldingkayaks.org http://findascope.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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