I heard a report from someone who went to the Outdoor Retailer show in Salt Lake City that the Hobie Cat folks convinced Greg Barton to compete in a tug-of-war between him and a guy in their Hobie Mirage (a peddle powered flipper finned kayak-like boat). The Mirage won. Later Greg and Oscar Chalupsky together in a double were just able to beat that single place Mirage in a tug-of-war. I think Greg was sucker punched because a tug of war is a contest where the more constant force (of the flapping fins) had an advantage over the more intermittent application of force from a paddler. I also suspect that a paddle (and maybe a wing paddle even more so) is at a disadvantage when the kayak can't move forward during the stroke. For the contest to mean anything I think they should have a race where the boats have identical hulls that are long enough that their "hull speed" will not be an issue. I'd be surprised if the Mirage propulsion system wins that race but I don't really know what would happen. Apparently during the two person (in the kayak) tug-of-war both Oscar and Greg were paddling in sync. I speculated that they would have done even better if they paddled out-of-sync such that they had at least one paddler pulling at all times (even though paddling in sync is a faster method at speed). My reporter said that the Hobie folks had appeared confident they would also beat the double. They probably already had with all the double paddlers they tried when they were testing this contest out before challenging top kayak racers to the tug-of-war. What do Paddlewiser's think? Do you have any other speculations as to why a two time Olympic gold medal winner lost the tug of war to the flipper boat or what would happen in an identical hull race? Matt Broze www.marinerkayaks.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I'd go with Barton, at speed -- he gets a whole body effort into the paddle. OTOH, if the flipper boat had an efficient screw drive with a propeller tuned for the racer and the top speed of the craft, I suspect the Mirage might stun any paddler. -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR ----- Original Message ----- Matt Broze wrote: > What do Paddlewiser's think? Do you have any other speculations as to why a > two time Olympic gold medal winner lost the tug of war to the flipper boat > or what would happen in an identical hull race? *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I don't think it's a mystery. Even amateur cyclists in good condition can produce significant fractions of a horsepower for significant periods of time with their legs. Steve Brown -----Original Message----- ............. What do Paddlewiser's think? Do you have any other speculations as to why a two time Olympic gold medal winner lost the tug of war to the flipper boat or what would happen in an identical hull race? Matt Broze www.marinerkayaks.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
From: Steve Brown [mailto:steve_at_brown-web.net] wrote: >>>>I don't think it's a mystery. Even amateur cyclists in good condition can produce significant fractions of a horsepower for significant periods of time with their legs. <<<<<< Top paddlers use their legs as well. I wonder how a tug-of-war would go with a rower and an efficient screw propeller boat. I used to have one of those, a Sea Saber, I wish I hadn't sold it. I could try it in a tug-of-war now if I still had it. I'll bet it could beat the Mirage in a tug-of-war with the right prop. It could beat a double scull by many lengths in a 1000 meter race. One won the Cross Sound race for several years in a row back in the early 1980's. Matt Broze www.marinerkayaks.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Matt wrote: - >I also suspect that a paddle (and maybe a wing >paddle even more so) is at a disadvantage when >the kayak can't move forward during the stroke. G'Day, I'm trying to understand if there is a transient increase in drag when a hull or a paddle goes from stationary to forward movement or from reverse to forward movement. I'm told back channel that boundary layer effects on a hull would not cause a transient increase in drag under these circumstances, (thanks Matt). Is it known whether something analogous to stiction in solids occurs when a hull or paddle starts to move through water or reverse its movement in water? Perhaps a transient increase in turbulence at the bow or stern or at the edges of the paddle? All the best, PeterO *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Peter, I think the "stiction" you refer to is commonly referred to as "static friction," which is greater than the "sliding friction" between two contacting solid surfaces. Stiction is greater than sliding friction because: when two solids sit in close contact, intermolecular forces between the surfaces cause the surfaces to interpenetrate slightly. This increases the drag force, relative to when the surfaces are already sliding past one another -- because the interpenetration can not occur to as great a degree when the surfaces move. This effect can only occur when the molecules on opposing surfaces are fixed in place on their own surface, as they are in solids. If one of the surfaces is a liquid (e.g., water contacting a kayak hull), the rapid motion of the liquid's molecules means the interpenetration does not change appreciably from static to moving conditions. Hence, no "stiction" when one surface is liquid (or a fluid, actually -- same situation if one surface is a gas). As for whether the boundary layer (the thin layer of liquid presumed to move in concert with the solid surface) interacts differently with the adjacent liquid layers: I doubt it. There is no basis in intermolecular forces which would support that. As for any "transient increase in turbulence" at startup: my understanding is that turbulence is driven by increased relative velocity of the two surfaces. That would suggest no increase in drag at startup, inasmuch as the two surfaces are not moving yet. Turbulence is the result of relative motion. Until the surfaces move, there is no turbulence. If you are interested in pursuing this further, I think vortex theory as it relates to turbulence may deal with any initial conditions, inasmuch as vortex initiation must occur at startup ... and there may be some effect inherent in accelerating the first set of molecules into the first set of vortices which might give the effect you are looking for ... but I doubt it. I must confess I think any effect such as this would be extremely small, and very difficult to measure or document. That is a gut feeling, and not backed by any solid theory or specific expertise in fluid mechanics ... which someone else might have. -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR ----- Original Message ----- From: "PeterO" <rebyl_kayak_at_iprimus.com.au> > I'm trying to understand if there is a transient increase in drag when a > hull or a paddle goes from stationary to forward movement or from reverse to > forward movement. I'm told back channel that boundary layer effects on a > hull would not cause a transient increase in drag under these circumstances, > (thanks Matt). Is it known whether something analogous to stiction in solids > occurs when a hull or paddle starts to move through water or reverse its > movement in water? Perhaps a transient increase in turbulence at the bow or > stern or at the edges of the paddle? *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
What do Paddlewiser's think? Do you have any other speculations as to why a two time Olympic gold medal winner lost the tug of war to the flipper boat or what would happen in an identical hull race? Matt Broze I don't have any idea as to the physics. But, I once competed in a pool slalom where one of the side show competitions was a tug of war. It was run one-on-one by clipping the back grab loops of the slalom boats to each other with a short line between the clips. It was an elimination tournament - lose and you're out. This was when I was as strong as I ever been but I lost in the first round to a guy who I could beat going backwards. I'm not exagerating - I could literally go faster backpaddling than he could paddling normally. But I weighed 135 pounds and he weighed 275. His total power was lots greater than mine. I would guess that this is why arm wrestling, boxing and regular wrestling all have weight categories. Jim Tibensky *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Dave wrote about turbulence: - >I must confess I think any effect such as >this would be extremely small, and >very difficult to measure or document. Jim wrote: - >But I weighed 135 pounds and he weighed 275. >His total power was lots greater than mine. G'Day Jim, Dave and Paddlewise Well sounds like my guess on turbulence wasn't all that relevant. Thanks Dave for the very clear explanation. In which case Jim's answer sounds right on the button. He was pulling 3 times his normal load while his competitor was pulling only 1.5 times. So Jim's muscles would have been abnormally loaded and presumably not working as efficiently. In addition as he says his opponents net muscle power would have been greater. Another factor could be if the boats were oscillating back and forth because of the relatively infrequent kayak stroke vs the more frequent flipper stroke. In that case Greg Barton would have needed to repeatedly accelerate his kayak from zero or reverse velocity to whatever forward velocity he could achieve. I should think this would require much more force and energy than maintaining a velocity against the drag of his kayak in a race. Given the combined factors of possible weight imbalance leading to inefficiently loaded muscle, the possible recurring need to generate the force and energy to accelerate rather than maintain velocity, a lower density of fast twitch fibres in torso muscles compared to upper leg muscles - it does sound like Greg was set up to fail. I'm assuming the higher density of fast twitch fibres in arm muscles would not be so relevant in a racing paddling stroke. Maybe there would have been a chance of success if Greg had worked his arms as much as his torso if the duration of the contest was short enough and the contestants had the same weight? By the way Jim, I've experienced a similar scenario of being able to win races against a fellow paddler of twice my weight but totally incapable of winning a kayak tug of war. All the best, PeterO *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
PeterO wrote: >Another factor could be if the boats were oscillating back and forth because >of the relatively infrequent kayak stroke vs the more frequent flipper >stroke. It looks as if there could have been oscillation. Hobie Cat has a video of a Mirage in a tug of war against a double at http://www.hobiecat.com/kayaking/miragedrive.html, and there's oscillation in that battle. The boats look somewhat similar, as well. Margot -- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Margot wrote: >It looks as if there could have been oscillation. Hobie Cat >has a video of a Mirage in a tug of war against a double at >http://www.hobiecat.com/kayaking/miragedrive.html, G'Day Margot, Thanks for that excellent link. Looks as if its the same boat described by Matt. The video's seem to provide questions for most of the explanations advanced so far. - The fins look to be the same size as the paddle blades so where does gearing come into play? - When Greg Barton and Oscar Chalupsky try to pull the flippered boat they use an unsynchronised stroke? So is speed of stroke really a workable strategy? - There is a huge amount of spray (turbulence?) at the paddle blades and no visible evidence of any around the flippered boat, better flipper efficiency perhaps? - As you say the two boats oscillate back and forth during the contest, at least when Greg is paddling by himself, so maybe the need to continuously accelerate the paddled boat is part of the problem? A puzzle is Nick Schade's observation that in a race the flipper operated boat simply doesn't perform. Is it just a question of flipper size and given a smaller unit a flippered boat would out perform the paddled boat? The advertising blurb claims these boats can reach hull speed. This might indicate that the boat in the video has smaller flippers than the one Nick saw or that the boat in the tug of war had larger flippers than the video shows? Perhaps flippers are just more efficient than paddles? I know most finned fish I try to catch are faster than my kayak. I'm also sure legs are more efficient than torsos at fairly high speed work. That leads me to yet another question - How do legs contribute when top kayakers (and even average kayakers like myself) pump them to go faster? All the best, PeterO *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Sep 6, 2004, at 5:58 AM, PeterO wrote: > That leads me to yet another question - How do legs contribute when top > kayakers (and even average kayakers like myself) pump them to go > faster? I came to paddling from sculling. In rowing, the legs are everything. The great efficiency of the sliding seat is that at least 80% of the force applied to the oars comes from the longest and strongest muscles in the body. I naturally tended to apply sculling technique to paddling with the result that my paddle stroke is driven more by my lower body than anything else. I am also most comfortable with the shallow angle that accompanies a 9 foot oar. I use a 240 cm bent shaft paddle with a relatively large blade, pushing with an almost stiff extended upper arm, twisting at the waist and driving with my leg against the foot peg. The lower arm is little more than a fulcrum or oarlock. At 62, (and every bit as arthritic as the next old man), I am able to sustain a cruising speed of near 5 knots for a distance of 20 miles with virtually no effects to my upper body. It is my legs that get sore, never my shoulders or arms. I see no reason ever to change to a Greenland paddle and suspect that if I did I would be compromising with respect to acceleration, bracing and possibly the force required for a quick turn, (aided by a sweep for example). This approach of course entirely precludes the use of a rudder, (the value of which I seriously question anyway). It is evidently very counter-intuitive since I have had little success in teaching it to others but this is probably more about my patience than the difficulty of the technique. BTW: Reading this thread one might get the impression that the contributors do all their paddling only in heavy winds and seas and only to windward. I change styles, feather angles and sometimes even paddles to adapt to different conditions and venues. For example, I feather only to windward. Since I also tend to plan my paddling ventures to avoid paddling to into the wind as much as possible, I rarely if ever have to deal with wrist problems or concern for appropriate feathered technique. Am I therefore a wimp? Cheers, Michael in Florida *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Michael wrote: - >In rowing, the legs are everything. The great >efficiency of the sliding seat is that at least >80% of the force applied to the oars comes from >the longest and strongest muscles in the body. SNIP >It is my legs that get sore, G'Day Michael, Thats my experience, sore legs and upper body no problem, in fact paddling fixes up my computer caused arthritis. The thing I don't understand is how flexing those leg muscles in a kayak generates the forward movement. I know it does help through listening to what everyone says and my own experience - I just don't understand why. In a rowing boat with a sliding seat I can see that flexing the legs extends and perhaps speeds up the stroke. But in a kayak that doesn't happen. I've tried to think it out and wondered if the leg action rotates the hips slightly but that doesn't seem to be a big enough movement to explain the improved effectiveness. I also wonder if leg movement somehow makes body movement more efficient but that is very hard to analyse, if it better transmits force to the boat that seems to contravene Newton's 3rd law. It clearly works, but why? I'll bet the answer is obvious and I've just not picked it:~) All the best, PeterO *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Peter wrote: >The thing I don't understand is how flexing those leg muscles in a kayak >generates the forward movement. Hi Peter, Someone who's deeper into the mechanics of things will have to give us the scientific answer, but my bet is that it's like the difference beteen pedaling a bicycle with a flexible frame and pedaling one with a stiff frame. Having been an avid cycler I tested various bikes and sure enough, less flex in the frame yielded more motion per effort expended. The bike folks say it is because it takes energy to flex the frame. So, perhaps driving with your leg supports the action other muscles. In addition, that fraction of an inch of movement is tranferred to the stroke through the joints into the long lever arms of the arms. Might not take much movement three inches from your spine to turn into a foot or two of stroke at the paddle. Just musings, not science. Cheers, Carey *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Basically, it is the front of your butt and your thighs/legs that push the kayak forward. Viewing the paddler as a system which interacts with the water and the kayak: The kayaker pushes back against the water. In turn, to anchor that pushing, the kayaker pushes forward on the kayak. If somehow more stroke (e.g., rearward pushing either for a longer time or with greater force) can be achieved by pumping your legs, then there will be more total work done on the kayak, by the paddler, and therefore more energy expended moving the kayak forward. -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR ----- Original Message ----- From: "PeterO" <rebyl_kayak_at_iprimus.com.au> > The thing I don't understand is how flexing those leg muscles in a kayak > generates the forward movement. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
<<The thing I don't understand is how flexing those leg muscles in a kayak generates the forward movement. I know it does help through listening to what everyone says and my own experience - I just don't understand why.>> You are moving the boat and not the paddle this way. Joan *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Sep 6, 2004, at 5:16 PM, PeterO wrote: > Thats my experience, sore legs and upper body no problem, in fact > paddling > fixes up my computer caused arthritis. Yeah. Paddling or rowing are the only effective treatments for my low back pain, (as well as my various mental illnesses). > The thing I don't understand is how flexing those leg muscles in a > kayak > generates the forward movement. It seems self-evident to me. The leg is used in such a way as to be the cause and force of torso rotation. Here I sit in a swivel chair. My left leg is partially extended bent slightly at the knee. The ball of my foot is against the wall. Being careful not to use any other body parts I am able to make my seat, (hence my upper body), turn about 30 degrees to the right by pushing against the wall and fully extending my leg. In the boat, all that is needed is to hold my left arm out so that it pushes against the paddle loom as my body turns. I do not rely on my abdominal muscles nor on the muscles of my lower back to achieve torso rotation. Instead, my legs do it. As I do this in my chair I think that I recognize a slight lateral component to the leg movement; pushing to the left a little as well as forward? Cheers, Michael in Florida *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Michael said (snip): >BTW: Reading this thread one might get the impression that the contributors do all their paddling only in heavy winds and seas and only to windward.< Really not sure how you drew that conclusion. Heavy wind and wave conditions, when encountered, do tend to test one's paddling technique, or at least raise some issues with respect to blade size, wrist stress, feathering, etc., more so than flat water. When these issues come up on a thread, paddlers naturally gravitate toward these specific environmental concerns. >I change styles, feather angles and sometimes even paddles to adapt to different conditions and venues. For example, I feather only to windward. Since I also tend to plan my paddling ventures to avoid paddling to into the wind as much as possible, I rarely if ever have to deal with wrist problems or concern for appropriate feathered technique. Am I therefore a wimp?< No, just smart. But then smart can be boring though probably easier on the wrists. I do think the list represents a good cross-section of paddlers, with the likes of race types such as Kirk, to traditionalists like Shawn, to the more sublime back-water bayou paddlers who shall remain nameless as they seek silence. That's why everyone's comments are valuable to some certain degree. I certainly got a sense of balance as I've followed the thread(s). I also see a lot of paddlers carrying two main paddles these days (both varying in purpose and design) with one or the other being employed depending on conditions. Gone are the old days of a good main paddle, with two halves of a cheap one on deck as a spare. Personally, I don't follow that philosophy, as I like my continuous-shaft paddle which I feel is stronger than a take-apart for what I use it for. I also encounter a lot more paddlers using adjustable-feather paddles, and a lot more paddlers who are aware of dihedral differences and willing to look for a paddle to match intended uses. I don't think you have a monopoly on being a wimp, if indeed avoiding aggravating arthritic contributors is considered wimpy. I've managed to avoid wrist problems, even though I have a carbon-fiber Lendal that I never use, by punctiliously avoiding too tight a grasp on the paddle shaft -- especially with the control hand. I do think the paddle-wrist interface is a fundamentally simple one (no need for dogma or much discussion) with the complexity being the spiritual connectivity between you and your paddle, as ultimately your paddle is your propulsion, your stabilizer, your turning device, your brake, your righting device, and possibly your rescue device to avoid a Jesus moment (along with your pragmatic and spiritual connectivity, respectively, with your boat of course). Your paddle may also have an aesthetic value that goes beyond the look and feel of say, a wooden GP, which is given a high regard in this category. Good torso rotation and leg involvement in the recumbent position, as you noted in the portion I snipped, is important, but can also be overstated. At least that's what I smugly tell myself as I pass all those recumbent bike guys on steep hills. :-) Anyway, I think as long as paddlers are getting out on the water and enjoying it -- either for recreational or athletic conditioning -- it really shouldn't matter what stick they are using. Doug Lloyd Victoria BC ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~ "Whatever can be said at all can be said clearly and whatever cannot be said clearly should not be said at all." Ludwig Wittgenstein ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Imagine a tug-of-war between 2 bicycles one a high-performance race bike set in the top gear (fastest) vs the other a Walmart special in its lowest (most powerful). Put Lance Armstrong on the "fast" bike and your favorite couch potato on the Walmart job. Who do you think would win? The Mirage unit is "geared" quite low. A customer installed the Hobie unit in one of my boats. He could effortlessly move at 4 knots but, try as he might, the boat would not go faster. The angle of attack of the fins on the unit is such that it is not effective at high speeds, but does very well at lower speeds. Back in college my brother did a study of old steam powered tug boats. Typically their engines produced about 100 horsepower, but they turned large props quite slowly. They would easily win a tug of war against 500 hp speed boat because the tub boat is "geared" for slow tugging where the speed boat is gear for fast running. Greg Barton is trained as a mechanical engineer, if he didn't understand what he was getting into, he only has himself to blame. I suspect that with a change in his paddling technique he may have been able to win. Slower strokes straight back would probably be more effective than the typical wing stroke out to the side. Nick On Aug 28, 2004, at 9:00 PM, Matt Broze wrote: > > What do Paddlewiser's think? Do you have any other speculations as to > why a > two time Olympic gold medal winner lost the tug of war to the flipper > boat > or what would happen in an identical hull race? > Nick Schade Guillemot Kayaks 824 Thompson St Glastonbury, CT 06033 USA Ph/Fx: (860) 659-8847 http://www.guillemot-kayaks.com/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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