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From: Bill Chitty <chitty_at_swissinfo.org>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Wooden Boat
Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2004 21:39:03 -0500
Go for it Doug!  I added a "stripper" to my modest fleet and enjoy paddling
it very much, screw-ups and all.  You can build it with a heavy lay-up on
the hull for rock gardening.

Look at Joe Greenley's design offerings at www.redfishkayaks.com .  At very
least you should get a copy of "The Strip Built Sea Kayak" by Nick Schade.

By the way, I enjoyed your recent prose on following behind boats...

Bill Chitty
Birmingham




> My work mate and I got talking about wooden boats, and I got the usual
> question about why I hadn't built a wooden boat yet. It's probably because
I
> can't handle imperfection in my woodworking, and I know my first boat
> probably will not come out absolutely perfect.
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From: Doug Lloyd <dalloyd_at_telus.net>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Wooden Boat
Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2004 21:11:04 -0700
Yeah, one of the Redfish designs and the Outer Island are two boats I'm
thinking about building (one or the other). I'm about a year away from
having my own shop on my property (as opposed to my shop at my in-laws out
of town, which is inconvenient for getting to after dinner sort of thing).
I'm sure an extra 20 - 25 pounds of cloth and epoxy to the hull (over normal
specifications) has to add a lot more strength than if an equal weight in
material was added to an all fibreglass production kayak (which also has to
account for a layer of Gelcoat, too). The Outer Island appeals to me for day
use, whereas the Redfish looks a bit more expedition capable. Knowing me,
I'll probably come up with my own design mods. How about the "Dougfish?"

I will probably lay up some cedar strips and cloth combinations, and do some
ad hoc strength tests of my own to determine the correct layers and
acceptability levels to satisfy my desires and requirements. I still laugh
at most of the adverts for modern kayaks claiming high strength and
durability. I had my British heavy almost worn out before the end of 1981,
the year I bought it. Was I disappointed after all the hype from the guy at
the kayak store. Of course, most kayaks are pretty durable for intended
purposes (and can be custom ordered in a heavier lay-up), but it brings even
more laughter to hear about modern paddlers running up the beach to throw
down their PFD's so they can place their kayaks on top.

Thanks for the encouragement. I'm at a bit of a transition point in my life
right now in terms of paddling pursuits, and I'm not sure which way I'll go,
but whatever I build, it better be tough with my track record. A bit more
manoeuvrable hull design might reduce some of the nastier collisions. I
certainly prefer a heavier boat overall when paddling "tight" to the
shoreline where there are breaking seas, as I find a heavier boat - while
less lively to paddle - gets thrown around less in the really nasty near
shore stuff. Especially the front portion of the original Nordkapp which
retains some Fishform advantages with buoyancy forward of amidships but
extends to a low volume in the last 1/5th. My favourite place to paddle is
in the green frothy water along rebounding cliffs where reefs can really mix
it up. Rather than sex, drugs, and rock n' roll, I can never get enough of
that good old jobbly water.

Doug Lloyd
Victoria BC

Bill said:
> Go for it Doug!  I added a "stripper" to my modest fleet and enjoy
paddling
> it very much, screw-ups and all.  You can build it with a heavy lay-up on
> the hull for rock gardening.
>
> Look at Joe Greenley's design offerings at www.redfishkayaks.com .  At
very
> least you should get a copy of "The Strip Built Sea Kayak" by Nick Schade.
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From: Doug Lloyd <dalloyd_at_telus.net>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Wooden Boat
Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2004 23:26:43 -0700
John said (snip):
> I added an extra "football" shape 6 0z layer on the hull and deck around
> the cockpit and 9 oz tape down the keel line on the hull.  It still weighs
> in the low 40's.  You could add quite a bit of extra glass, kevlar, dyonel
> (spelling) to it without making it really heavy.

Thanks John for the suggestions, and thanks to the others who posted a reply
as well. I spent the other night on the internet into the wee hours of the
morning looking over all the major players with web sites and galleries. I
think making a wood-based kayak is the way to go for my specific needs, and
I can really put to good use my Lie-Nielsen planes I'm getting for
Christmas. I once contemplated moulding up and making an all-epoxy killer
wave machine, but working in wood seems a little more realistic (especially
given I'm more than a casual woodworker). I like the fact it can be done
piece-meal in terms of budgeting, as the kayak's components can slowly be
acquired.

Having said all that, I do like the "look" of a well-executed modern sea
kayak, like a Seaward/Foster, Necky or other reputable builder's production
boat. Glass boats have a certain industrial/tech appeal that takes some
adjusting to move away from, and the quality of some of these kayaks in the
last couple of years is truly incredible (at least in my neck of the woods,
and at the point where I'd be willing to spend some real bucks - if I had
them).

Not sure if strip or ply will be the way to go, but I do support Duane's
comments about making your own kayak being very worthwhile. One of the best
sea kayaks I've ever seen on the water in terms of
performance/comfort/payload/price was a home built plywood/epoxy,
home-designed unit by local paddler Doug Alderson. He defines the sport by
how little he spends on gear/boats (his time/labour being free to himself).

I'm not overly thrilled with any of the designs commercially available in
plan form so far, if the truth be known (no offence to anyone intended), so
I will have to do some research and perhaps some trials. I've been reading
some of the prolific posts on the Qajaq forum (Shawn Baker has over 1600
posts!) trying to gleam some data input. Nick's builders forum is a great
source of info too, and I do have his book, plus ones by other authors. I
may do a cedar strip version of the Nordkapp Jubilee (with permission,
whether it is legally required or not), and perhaps do a major cockpit
reconfiguration/rear recess to permit more integrated lay-back rolls while
retaining gear capacity. I think I would be reasonably capable of
woodworking a strip hull into the complex contours normally avoided to
produce a "faired" hull, eliminating some of the flattish spots one sees on
plywood hulls and even strip-builts. I could even strip-build a Nadgee, or
is that a Mariner Max - okay, let's not go there, I've only got mini-nuts
tonight. :-)

I doubt I'd go for fancy inlay work if I go the wood kayak route, rather
concentrating efforts to reproduce a post-modern kayak where all components
like wrapped bulkheads, thigh braces, etc, were constructed/carved  in wood.
We shall see. Again, I really appreciate the input from everyone, and the
efforts  to add a little water to reconstitute the wood-is-good ideation.

Doug Lloyd
Victoria BC
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From: Kirk Olsen <kork4_at_cluemail.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Wooden Boat
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 09:57:01 -0400
On Mon, 9 Aug 2004 23:26:43 -0700, "Doug Lloyd" <dalloyd_at_telus.net>
said:
> I once contemplated moulding up and making an all-epoxy killer
> wave machine, but working in wood seems a little more realistic
> (especially given I'm more than a casual woodworker).

It appears there's at least one vendor for a homebuilt wood surf kayak:

http://www.surfyak.com/_wsn/page4.html
(if you spend 2 minutes on the surfyak site you will know more about the
boat than I do.)

I could have sworn I saw pictures of a stitch and glue whitewater
playboat,
but I couldn't find it.

Long ago Preston Holms had online photos of how he built the Gecko
surf kayak.  He started with a foam blank, carved the foam, fiberglassed
over the foam then carved the foam out.  Hmm, found it's new home via a
thread at
Nick Schade's excellant kayakbuilder forums 

http://www.kayakforum.com/cgi-bin/Design/index.cgi/noframes/read/2110

Preston's 1998 build of the Gecko boat
http://www.ptone.com/Kayak/surfboat/building/
which I found interesting as a construction method.

Kirk
-- 
  Kirk Olsen
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