To me, any discussion of Greenland verses euro naturally leads to feathered verses un-feathered since that is really the most obvious difference between the two. All the other differences are just a matter of dimensional differences, which vary widely on the euro anyway. I always use an un-feathered paddle because of what I perceive as the following advantages: -I don't need to worry about how to do proper wrist and/or forearm articulation when using a feathered paddle to avoid injury -Symmetric (left/right) bracing, rolling, and other strokes are more easily mastered and maintained -Rolling more easily achieved with the paddle upside-down, backwards, or both. In powerful hydraulics, you can loose control and/or orientation of your paddle as you are just hanging one with one hand, or even a finger and thumb. I have sometimes rolled up and paddled off, only to realize a few minutes later that my paddle was upside-down or backwards. -It's easier to build one. Something I have done and want to do in the future. -Easier transition to-and-from a Greenland paddle. Also something I have done and want to do in the future. I admit these are my perceptions, not necessarily fact, but I do think they are intuitive and at least pass the sanity check. Though I never use a feathered paddle, I don't seem to fall behind my friends in a head wind - unless I am falling behind them anyway. They're probably enjoying it more than me though. Possibly if the wind was strong enough they would leave me behind. I'll concede the disadvantage in a direct head wind in exchange for what I perceive to be the advantages of un-feathered paddling. On the other hand, why feathered paddles for WW paddling and surfing? I have heard some make the justification based on feathering encouraging torso rotation and a high stroke, but that's a major stretch to me. I seem to be able to do both without feathering, and any limitation on my torso rotation seems directly tied to flexibility and discipline (Both of which I sometimes lack). Feathering has become unquestioned dogma - virtually religion if you listen to DH. I have learned a lot from his books, and his accomplishments are light years beyond any in my past or in my future, but that doesn't mean everything he says is true. IMO the wide acceptance of the 45 degree (some 30 now) WW paddle is tacit acknowledgement that it doesn't help at all in that environment. Producing one with no feather, however, would present a major marketing problem, since all these paddlers have been pre-conditioned to believe that feathering is a must. Here are some of the reasons I have heard so far for feathered paddling: -Derek says you should. On the other hand Derek explains away the Greenland paddle by asserting that the Inuits never thought of feathering a paddle. That seems very presumptuous to me. -Racers do it. On the other hand, how many of them have actually trained seriously with an un-feathered paddled and compared the difference? -It encourages high stroke and torso rotation. If true, please provide some drawings of this effect because I can't visualize it. -Only because it is easier in a strong head wind. The only one that makes sense to me(not for surfing or WW though), and from one of my friends who switch hits between feathered and un-feathered How can an asymmetric body motion be better for you, or more efficient than a symmetrical one? I have yet to hear anyone even attempt to explain this in any logical way. I don't feel the need to convert the paddling world to un-feathered paddling, but I do find it annoying that I can't even buy an off-the-shelf one piece paddle with zero feather angle. Being in the minority has some real disadvantages. Steve Brown *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 9/9/2004 6:09:40 AM Pacific Daylight Time, steve_at_brown-web.net writes: > IMO the wide acceptance of the 45 degree (some > 30 now) WW paddle is tacit acknowledgement that it doesn't help at all in > that environment. Producing one with no feather, however, would present a > major marketing problem, since all these paddlers have been pre-conditioned > to believe that feathering is a must. > So all the Olympians, international and national slalom champs, flatwater K1 racers, surfing worlds champs, their trainers, etc., are in a make believe cult world and have been fooling themselves for years? Rob G *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I don't know, but that's the "Racers do it" argument. It only carries weight as a logical argument (at least with me) if they have done it both ways and settled on feathered as superior. I'd be surprised if most weren't handed feathered paddles when they were still kids and told to use them. Let's ask: Any Olympians, international or national slalom champs, flat-water K1 racers, surfing worlds champs, or their trainers out there who actually gave un-feathered paddles an equal chance or conducted a controlled study of any kind comparing them to feathered paddles? Steve Brown -----Original Message----- So all the Olympians, international and national slalom champs, flatwater K1 racers, surfing worlds champs, their trainers, etc., are in a make believe cult world and have been fooling themselves for years? Rob G *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Steve Brown said: Let's ask: Any Olympians, international or national slalom champs, flat-water K1 racers, surfing worlds champs, or their trainers out there who actually gave un-feathered paddles an equal chance or conducted a controlled study of any kind comparing them to feathered paddles? Once again bringing the Stone Age to mind, when I raced sprint boats our team trained at the home club of the great Danish champion Eric Hansen before a race in Denmark. I was amazed to learn, and see, that he had a large supply of paddles with many different angles of feather. This was 1970 when everyone in sprinting that I knew used a 90 degree offset. He said that he used a paddle depending on the wind, ninety degrees in a head wind, about 40, I think, with a tail wind. Never asked why there was no unfeathered, but I could guess that the change to unfeathered would be quite radical. By the time we get to be really good at racing, we are so accustomed to a feathered paddle that it might be tricky to give an equal effort with an unfeathered one. I have done time trials over a marked sprint course to learn about the speed on my SOF boat used with a Greenland paddle. But never trials with two different paddles in the same boat. My 18.5 foot long, 17.5 inch wide SOF can go 250 meters as fast as me in a sprint boat. The start seems slower, but by the end of the minute plus, the boats/paddles equal out. Jim Tibensky *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> So all the Olympians, international and national slalom champs, > flatwater K1 > racers, surfing worlds champs, their trainers, etc., are in a make > believe > cult world and have been fooling themselves for years? I'm speaking here not to be contentious but to espouse open mindedness. In reply to the above, _possibly_, yes. History is chock full of examples where all the experts were dead wrong. A very few choice examples were those who thought the world was flat, that illness was caused by demons and "humors" not ridiculous tiny animals that were too small to see!, people would not be able to breathe in a vehicle which went over 60 mph, and man has 48 chromosomes (the latter is what they taught me at Harvard in 1959. In 1960 _I_ was counting chromosomes and confirming that there are normally only 46.) My experience has been that generally accepted truth often isn't. Sometimes it _is_, but I try not to assume that without question, in any area. Fair winds and happy bytes, Dave Flory -- Speak softly, study Aikido, & you won't need to carry a big stick! Marine mammal, dog & Bengal cat pictures _at_ <http://homepage.mac.com/dflory> *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 9/9/2004 12:03:09 PM Pacific Daylight Time, daflory_at_speakeasy.net writes: > > So all the Olympians, international and national slalom champs, > > flatwater K1 > > racers, surfing worlds champs, their trainers, etc., are in a make > > believe > > cult world and have been fooling themselves for years? > > I'm speaking here not to be contentious but to espouse open mindedness. > In reply to the above, _possibly_, yes. History is chock full of > examples where all the experts were dead wrong. A very few choice > examples were those who thought the world was flat, that illness was > caused by demons and "humors" not ridiculous tiny animals that were too > small to see!, people would not be able to breathe in a vehicle which > went over 60 mph, and man has 48 chromosomes (the latter is what they > taught me at Harvard in 1959. In 1960 _I_ was counting chromosomes and > confirming that there are normally only 46.) My experience has been > that generally accepted truth often isn't. Sometimes it _is_, but I try > not to assume that without question, in any area. > > Fair winds and happy bytes, Dave Flory > -- > Speak softly, study Aikido, & you won't need to carry a big stick! > Marine mammal, dog & Bengal cat pictures _at_ > <http://homepage.mac.com/dflory> > By the way, I didn't pose the question to naturally assume that the experts were indeed infallible. That's why records get broken; ok, steroids too, but there are some who play by the rules. But, I digress. I can shift comfortably from an (obviously) unfeathered GP to a Lendal crank. I prefer the Lendal, but the GP has its appeal, too. There is room in this wet world of paddling to challenge authori-tah and try to make it better, at least, or most, for yourself. However, I would suggest that if those who are breaking records, surfing hellacious waves, are using interesting equipment or techniques, one might consider putting them on the short list of possible options. Rob G *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 9/9/2004 9:04:34 AM Pacific Daylight Time, steve_at_brown-web.net writes: > Let's ask: > > Any Olympians, international or national slalom champs, flat-water K1 > racers, surfing worlds champs, or their trainers out there who actually gave > un-feathered paddles an equal chance or conducted a controlled study of any > kind comparing them to feathered paddles? > Greg Barton usually displays at the West Coast Sea Kayak Symposium. I will print this question and ask him if he is willing to answer. I'll also settle another question on how fast Chris Duff paddles by asking him, too. Rob G *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Steve, I have to agree with you on the unfeathered issue. In John Dowd's book "Sea Kayaking", he points out many liabilities for feathered paddles including repetitive-use wrist injuries. The only benefit he found was in heavy head winds. He concluded that it is surprising that the feathered paddle gained so much popularity. I paddle unfeathered 99% of the time but always select an adjustable 2-pc paddle from the rack for the long open-water crossings where I might see high headwinds. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
The "unfeathered," or "traditional" paddle came first. As I understand it, the feathered paddle was developed as a racing thing in the belief that the upper blade of the feathered paddle would create less wind resistance. It was later adopted by the white water slalom community who were often paddling into stiff headwinds as the result of the canyons which the rivers are usually found in. In kayak racing, whether it be flat-water or whitewater, the difference between winning and losing is often measured in a fraction of a second. That being the case, I have no problem believing that using a feathered paddle in any king of a headwinds can be an advantage to the racer. A lot of white water paddlers were responsible for pioneering modern sea kayaking. They brought with them the paddles they were most familiar with, for better or worst. Now let's go a little closer to home. I paddle with both feathered and traditional, or unfeathered, paddles. I remember a trip I did in Baja some years back where we got a late start and hit the stiff afternoon headwinds. We hit an exposed area during a crossing which was particularly bad where we worked for about an hour without making any headway at all. We decided to feather our paddles, after which we noticed a marked improvement in our crawl forward. The feathered paddle made a significant difference in that situation. I also use a feathered paddle for surfing. I believe that the feathered paddle is more conducive to using shorter paddles with a quicker stroke. However, the main reason I use a feathered paddle for surfing is because I know for a fact that punching through a large wave, the kind where you actually go under water, is considerably easier with the upper blade of the paddle angled to slice through the water rather then push against it. But you can believe whatever you like. Scott So.Cal. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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