When a wilderness traveler ends up being rescued by the authorities, is there any consistent policy as to how much of the expenses, if any, are charged to him? I would imagine that with even a modest effort, it would run into the thousands. Maybe it's a discretionary decision by the authorities. Tom ---------------------------------------- The information contained in this e-mail message may be privileged, confidential, and protected from disclosure. If you are not the intended recipient, any further disclosure or use, dissemination, distribution, or copying of this message or any attachment is strictly prohibited. If you think that you have received this e-mail message in error, please delete it and notify the sender. ======================================== *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> When a wilderness traveler ends up being rescued by the authorities, is > there any consistent policy as to how much of the expenses, if any, are > charged to him? I would imagine that with even a modest effort, it > would run into the thousands. Maybe it's a discretionary decision by > the authorities. I believe it's not always discretionary - there must be some international agreements on seas. What I do recall, is that coastguards in the USA distinguish between "rescue" and "retrieval", first being stricrly on water and therefore free, and another one - when kayker is already ashore. And totally different story is medical-related expenses. The guy that was stabbed with a knife on his yacht in Baja 2 years ago (very infrequent, extraordinary event in this area), was airlifted from shore rocks (yacht without control became grounded and eventually fell apart, but he managed to get ashore). He was charged for this helicopter ride to the hospital something like 20 thousand (US$, not pesos), not to mention hospital charges (he had little or no insurance). *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> When a wilderness traveler ends up being rescued by the authorities, is > there any consistent policy as to how much of the expenses, if any, are > charged to him? I would imagine that with even a modest effort, it > would run into the thousands. Maybe it's a discretionary decision by > the authorities. I believe it's not always discretionary - there must be some international agreements on seas. What I do recall, is that coastguards in the USA distinguish between "rescue" and "retrieval", first being stricrly on water and therefore free, and another one - when kayker is already ashore and is not in immediate danger. And totally different story is medical-related expenses. The guy that was stabbed with a knife on his yacht in Baja 2 years ago (very infrequent, extraordinary event in this area), was airlifted from shore rocks (yacht without control became grounded and eventually fell apart, but he managed to get ashore). He was charged for this helicopter ride to the hospital something like 20 thousand (US$, not pesos), not to mention hospital charges (he had little or no insurance). *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> When a wilderness traveler ends up being rescued by the authorities, is > there any consistent policy as to how much of the expenses, if any, are > charged to him? I would imagine that with even a modest effort, it > would run into the thousands. Maybe it's a discretionary decision by > the authorities. I believe it's not always discretionary - there must be some international agreements on seas. What I do recall, is that coastguards in the USA distinguish between "rescue" and "retrieval", first being stricrly on water and therefore free, and another one - when kayker is already ashore. And totally different story is medical-related expenses. The guy that was stabbed with a knife on his yacht in Baja 2 years ago (very infrequent, extraordinary event in this area), was airlifted from shore rocks (yacht without control became grounded and eventually fell apart, but he managed to get ashore). He was charged for this helicopter ride to the hospital something like 20 thousand (US$, not pesos), not to mention hospital charges (he had little or no insurance). *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
It is the responsibility of the county or national park where the incident occurred. The responsible agency has many resources to call on including the Military when necessary. This has been an ongoing discussion in the Volunteer Search and Rescue Community for years. In general the Volunteer SAR community is against charging for rescue. If people were to be charged it begins a slide down a slippery slope. Would people be more hesitant in calling for rescue when they need it? Who would get the money? Etc. In my part of the world main expense, other than overtime for the officers, is volunteer time. Military helicopters are already paid for out of training budgets, and if not used would not effect any saving for the taxpayers. As a society we seem to want to help those in trouble. We don't ask who is in trouble or why. If we started charging for rescue would we be picking on a small part of society? Do we then charge people when their house catches on fire or a flood hits? Where do we draw the line. In my opinion, we should render aid to those who need it. To do otherwise would change who we are as a society. In Europe wilderness travelers buy rescue insurance and the rescue is paid for by the insurer. There the rescue teams are paid professionals. To implement that system here would destroy what is a large body of volunteer search and rescue people. Also it would be vastly more expensive in the US as our wilderness areas are so much more spread out than in Europe. I will get off my soapbox now. This is an issue I feel rather strongly about and tend to sound off whenever it is raised. Every time there is a big rescue in the NW the papers go on a crusade about how much it costs the taxpayer and don't take the time or effort to consider the alternatives. Christopher G. Madden maddencg_at_earthlink.net ----- Original Message ----- From: Joyce, Thomas F. Subject: [Paddlewise] Who Picks Up the Rescue Tab? When a wilderness traveler ends up being rescued by the authorities, is there any consistent policy as to how much of the expenses, if any, are charged to him? I would imagine that with even a modest effort, it would run into the thousands. Maybe it's a discretionary decision by the authorities. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Here in British Columbia, Canada, it is a discretionary call. The authorities need to walk the tightrope between discouraging particuarlly bone-headed behaviour and discouraging people from calling them when they should (earlier intervention in a real emergency is usually cheaper, quicker, and more likely to have a happy outcome.) Philip "Joyce, Thomas F." <TJoyce_at_bellboyd.com> wrote: >When a wilderness traveler ends up being rescued by the authorities, is >there any consistent policy as to how much of the expenses, if any, are >charged to him? I would imagine that with even a modest effort, it >would run into the thousands. Maybe it's a discretionary decision by >the authorities. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Alex replied: > And totally different story is medical-related expenses. The guy that was > stabbed with a knife on his yacht in Baja 2 years ago (very infrequent, > extraordinary event in this area), was airlifted from shore rocks (yacht > without control became grounded and eventually fell apart, but he managed > to > get ashore). He was charged for this helicopter ride to the hospital > something like 20 thousand (US$, not pesos), not to mention hospital > charges > (he had little or no insurance). Anyone traveling to foreign destinations with inadequate insurance already has a strike against them. Can't afford insurance? Then revise your travel plans. As for search and rescue costs, I'm all for fines, etc, for those who knowingly go out of bounds from defined areas in places such as alpine ski areas. In terms of wilderness travel, I doubt North American culture will see a big push toward reimbursement after rescue for sometime yet, though I know there is a push from time to time. All backcountry users and water-wilderness travelers should put 75% of their effort into training/ preparation in terms of avoiding trouble, and perhaps 25% into incident recovery training. That's one thing that didn't impress me with some of my early exposure to BCU training - namely that there was so much emphasis on group rescue drills and the like. I see things have markedly improved from what I can tell these days, though I'm certainly not up to speed sufficiently to make authoritative comments. BTW, did anyone catch Chuck's article in Sea Kayaker Magazine on a novice incident/death? Very precise reporting and very poignant. I remember getting the "gears" from some paddling acquaintances over my entrapment article, but Chuck's article drives home the prevention-is-best cure. Doug Lloyd (who's heart is finally keeping sinus rhythm - thank you Medicare) Victoria BC *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Doug, your statement "Those who knowingly go out of bounds from defined area such as alpine ski areas ..." is only a short step away from those who knowingly challenge marine areas such as the Columbia River Bar, which is periodically closed to all forms of shipping, and regularly closed to small vessels during gnarly storm conditions. I suspect, to be consistent, you would have yourself billed for any rescue of your sinus-satisfied heart if you needed one on the Bar **when it is closed.** Yes? And then, perhaps the "authorities" will eventually deem certain marine areas as **always** closed to wayward adventurers in small, narrow, heavy British toothpicks. It's a slippery slope, Doug. I think I hear the sound of sliding ... -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR (who is in support of volunteers who search for wayward souls ... and the Coasties who might someday rescue his own wayward ass) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Doug Lloyd" <dalloyd_at_telus.net> > As for search and rescue costs, I'm all for fines, etc, for those who > knowingly go out of bounds from defined areas in places such as alpine ski > areas. In terms of wilderness travel, I doubt North American culture will > see a big push toward reimbursement after rescue for sometime yet, though I > know there is a push from time to time. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Dave replied: > Doug, your statement > > "Those who knowingly go out of bounds from defined area such as alpine ski > areas ..." > > is only a short step away from those who knowingly challenge marine areas > such as the Columbia River Bar, which is periodically closed to all forms > of shipping, and regularly closed to small vessels during gnarly storm > conditions. > I suspect, to be consistent, you would have yourself billed for any rescue > of your sinus-satisfied heart if you needed one on the Bar **when it is > closed.** > Alas, my wayward ass would be grass. Indeed Dave, the US Coast Guard can terminate any voyage they deem as a manifestly unsafe voyage or where, in their opinion, a vessel is deemed to be operating unsafely in hazardous conditions. Fines are up to $1,000 with imprisonment for one year, sometimes both. Places like the Columbia River Bar have a particular measure of force behind these regulations. I believe both of our countries have other catch-all regulations that can be brought to bear upon unsafe boating practices. The upshot is of course, that any subsequent rescue during "bar closed" conditions would carry some moral implications regarding reimbursement for rescue costs. However, I don't know too many paddlers who would actually venture out into conditions as you propose, do you? I forget the name of the girl profiled in Justine Curgenven's new DVD, "This is the Sea." She is shown regularly paddling the Columbia River Bar, though I'm sure not in conditions you stipulate. Then again, there are beaches in the area one could surf while still maintaining distance from the rather unsafe bar conditions. Like some of the participants shown in this new DVD, I too enjoy seeking out gnarly tide races and overfalls - its just more challenging solo. The North Jetty of the CRB was one such place, but perhaps not one that is easy to mitigate against the dangers of a capsize/bailout scenario. I doubt I'll be back there unless I get really strong again. I'm down from the 200lb range, to around 183lb now. Like you, I lost a lot of muscle mass during ill-health, and don't feel as strong as I used to. My tippy British heavy will probably be more of a burden now. I sold off my Olympic weight set recently to pay for heart drugs, but then I'm trying to loose muscle mass to offset heart-pumping inefficiencies. It's a new world for me, a kinder, gentler one, I guess. This time last year I was crawling into bed at 1:00am after night-time storm paddling -- the best way to keep of "the Man's" radar. You added (snip): > It's a slippery slope, Doug. I think I hear the sound of sliding ... Yeah, sliding downhill now that I'm over-the-hill where it's all downhill, rolling toward eventual geriatric malaise... Doug Lloyd (who skied out of bounds for years, until in became too politically incorrect (and possibly expensive). Victoria BC *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 10:36 PM 11/30/2004 -0800, Doug Lloyd wrote: >Dave replied: > >>Doug, your statement >> >>"Those who knowingly go out of bounds from defined area such as alpine >>ski areas ..." >> >>is only a short step away from those who knowingly challenge marine areas >>such as the Columbia River Bar, which is periodically closed to all forms >>of shipping, and regularly closed to small vessels during gnarly storm >>conditions. > >>I suspect, to be consistent, you would have yourself billed for any >>rescue of your sinus-satisfied heart if you needed one on the Bar **when >>it is closed.** > > > >Alas, my wayward ass would be grass. Indeed Dave, the US Coast Guard can >terminate any voyage they deem as a manifestly unsafe voyage or where, in >their opinion, a vessel is deemed to be operating unsafely in hazardous >conditions. Similarly, it's not uncommon for a ski patrol to "pull the ticket" on a skier if the skier is deemed unsafe. Granted, an out of control skier poses a risk to other skiers but it may also be for their own safety, and is typically because the skier doesn't possess the skill to handle the terrain they're attempting to ski, not unlike a marginally equipped boater going out in hazardous conditions. >You added (snip): > >>It's a slippery slope, Doug. I think I hear the sound of sliding ... > >Yeah, sliding downhill now that I'm over-the-hill where it's all downhill, >rolling toward eventual geriatric malaise... > >Doug Lloyd (who skied out of bounds for years, until in became too >politically incorrect (and possibly expensive). I had the fortune to be able to ski every day for four weeks along side a ski patron at Arapahoe Basin in Colorado. Not only are there are a number of out of bounds areas that the patrols will look the other way if someone is seen heading down them, but many them are named runs. One of my most memorable skiing experiences was skiing an out-of-bounds run called "Dave's Wave" which ran from the top of the pass down to the resort under a full moon. I also had the fortune of being able to ski in Chamonix a couple of years ago. It's interesting that in Europe there really aren't any out of bounds areas but, instead the terrain is called "off piste" (off trail). Across the valley from the resort I skied as an area call Aiguille Du Midi, which essentially consisted of a tram (the highest in the world) then went up near the top of the mountain. All of the terrain was "off piste". It was strongly recommended that anyone skiing the area do so with a guide but it wasn't mandatory. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
What the ski patrol should do instead is to ritually break both skis (or 1 if they are a snowboarder). That will teach them a lesson they will not forget. DON Similarly, it's not uncommon for a ski patrol to "pull the ticket" on a skier if the skier is deemed unsafe. Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ *************************************************************************** *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
----- Original Message ----- From: "Doug Lloyd" <dalloyd_at_telus.net> > The upshot is of course, that any subsequent rescue during "bar > closed" conditions would carry some moral implications regarding > reimbursement for rescue costs. beyond monetary, what about the moral implictaions of putting some one else's life in jeopardy so save your sorry arse in the first place?? (your in the figurative, not personal) If some one chooses to engage in risky behavior for the sake satisfying some personal ego trip about being more extreme than the next, I say let them figure out how to get out of the bind they got themselves in to on their own. Otherwise you can expect increased regulation as to how, when and where you get to partake of your recreational boating activities. Responsibility and authority are inexorably linked and there is no such thing as a free ride, some where some how some one always pays the cost. I'd just rather it be the ones who wrote the check. For those poor sods having to make a living out there, professional mariners, fishermen etc I don't have a problem when they call for help. But we do have fairly stringent regulations, enforcement and proven safe conduct methods as to how they operate in order to prevent these incidents in the first place. The US generally leads the way in these issues and the USCG spends a great portion of its budget (your and my taxes) dedicated to nothing but improving and implementing the safety methodology here in the US as well as foreign programs in other less affluent (and embargoed) nations. Just my Never to be Humble opinion: Michael *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I wouldn't want to downplay the importance of a person taking personal responsibility for their actions, but defining "risky behavior" is extremely subjective. Some people consider paddling a kayak at all too risky to even try. Others surf launching and landing, rock gardening, long crossings, etc. One thing that is objectively true is that the riskier your behavior on the sliding scale, the less likely it is that someone would even be able to rescue you in time to - as Duane puts it - circumvent the natural process. Steve Brown -----Original Message----- ....... If some one chooses to engage in risky behavior for the sake satisfying some personal ego trip about being more extreme than the next, I say let them figure out how to get out of the bind they got themselves in to on their own. .......... Michael *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
MICHAEL SILVIUS <M.Silvius_at_worldnet.att.net> wrote: > If some one chooses to engage in risky behavior for the sake satisfying > some > personal ego trip about being more extreme than the next, I say let them > figure out how to get out of the bind they got themselves in to on their > own. The trick here is in how we decide what is "risky behavior." When an SUV headed for a day of fun on the ski slopes slides off an icy road, trapping a family of four down a steep slope, we do not begrudge funding the rescue of those unlucky souls nor begrudge the risk to rescue personnel paid to extract them ... even though driving in those conditions is certainly "risky behavior." That's because the behavior fits a profile we have accepted as part of "normal" living. Granted, now and then (at least in Oregon), driving conditions become so hazardous that mountain roads are closed to vehicular traffic ... and then perhaps Michael's description may fit the behavior of the family of four. But, woe be to any "authority" who presents a bill to that family for rescue. The public outcry would be horrendous! In contrast, woe be to the poor soul who attempts something outside the norm, though perhaps no more risky by some objective measure ... be it a world standard climber tackling a hard route on Mt. Hood, or crazy Doug Lloyd scooting across the Columbia River Bar. Rescue? Make them pay for it! I bet our perception ("our" referring to the larger society, not just Paddlewisers) of which is the unreasonable risk-taker has more to do with the extent to which we identify with the unfortunates needing a rescue, and less to do with the objective degree of risk. I agree with Michael's other point that much of the intent of USCG SAR funding is directed toward maintaining capability for serving the needs of commercial vessels. Even so, where I live, I suspect the bulk of that funding ends up being used for saving yardbirds of the pleasure boater stripe who run aground, lose an engine, get lost, can't find their way home in the fog, etc. Not to mention casual tourists who get stuck on local sea cliffs. Do I sound cranky? I might be cranky. Oh, well. -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Chris Madden wrote: [...] >In Europe wilderness travelers buy rescue insurance and the rescue >is paid for by the insurer. Which wilderness and what countries in Europe are you talking about? And what do you mean by rescue insurance? I have 'traveling' insurance, and this (probably?!) covers rescue -- if necessary. Dirk Barends *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Dirk Barends wrote: >Which wilderness and what countries in Europe are you talking about? > >And what do you mean by rescue insurance > > Sorry for what may be a late reply. In Switzerland, rescue (usually mountain, but also road accident and navigable waters) by helicopter is done by a semi-private organisation called the "REGA". They run helicopters and air ambulances. If you are a member of their organisation (about USD 60/year) they will rescue you free of charge from anywhere in Swiss territory. Their service is extended to bringing members that are ill or accident victims back from abroad in what is literally an intensive-care equipped ambulance plane. It is considered a cheap and extremely effective insurance. They average 15 minutes from distress call to arrival on site. Of course, it can take hours for someone to reach a place from where they can call for help! Cheers, Kevin. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Some of the best skiing in my life took place in out-of bounds areas. Near vertical faces; manageable, avalanching snow racing behind you; zig-zag runs between rocky outcrops with jumps off snow precipices - these were some of my favourite things. Yes, it was dangerous, but you didn't blindly go about your business, rather scouting things out first and then taking another run for multiple downhill descents. Sure, your legs were jelly at the end of the run, but what fun. Now, you get these young jerks, disobedient and rebellious to the core, seeking out-of-bounds areas for bragging rights, getting hurt and lost - way over their heads. I mean heck, the terrain of most out-of-bounds areas in far less risky that some of the wilderness back-country slopes that the heli-ski crown pursue, but at a public mountain, it only makes sense to cordon off areas dangerous to average commodities and interests. Likewise, those who pursue marginal-as-measured-by-the-average paddling conditions, normally do so with as much safety and preparation as the gusto they exhaust pursuing said activity, once commenced. Those who do not train, equip, and initial gradient exposure regimes simply do not understand "risky" paddling behaviour, nor the joy of such behaviour. The existential and spiritual aspects of reasonable-by-your-own-competency-standards while seeking out and enjoying challenging conditions should eclipse ego-satisfaction and the business of braggart. Doug Lloyd (who comes by his "wild heart" genetically; his father fell of a mountain cliff while solo-ski mountaineering in the 50's. He lay there two days, before rescue. Tough bugger. A top Cambridge rower too. He wound up with a pin in his leg and took ballet lesson for physiotherapy, where he met a sexy ballet instructor - yeap, my eventual mother. Victoria BC John had replied: > I had the fortune to be able to ski every day for four weeks along side a > ski patron at Arapahoe Basin in Colorado. Not only are there are a number > of out of bounds areas that the patrols will look the other way if someone > is seen heading down them, but many them are named runs. One of my most > memorable skiing experiences was skiing an out-of-bounds run called > "Dave's Wave" which ran from the top of the pass down to the resort under > a full moon. > > I also had the fortune of being able to ski in Chamonix a couple of years > ago. It's interesting that in Europe there really aren't any out of bounds > areas but, instead the terrain is called "off piste" (off trail). Across > the valley from the resort I skied as an area call Aiguille Du Midi, which > essentially consisted of a tram (the highest in the world) then went up > near the top of the mountain. All of the terrain was "off piste". It was > strongly recommended that anyone skiing the area do so with a guide but it > wasn't mandatory. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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