I've told this every time the issue comes up, but I'll repeat it: In Illinois we screamed against having to register our canoes and kayaks. It costs all of $13.00 the first time for a title and three year registration and then $6.00 to renew for three years. "It's not the money" we said. "It's the principle - we get nothing now, we really need nothing. We can launch just about anywhere." But the bill passed and now we register. And now the Department of Natural Resources listens when we talk and builds us canoe launches when we make a good case. I have nine kayaks (yeah, I know, it's a disease) so I pay more than most. But we paddlers now have a bought-and-paid-for place at the table when issues that affect us come up. And, in my opinion, we are heard. And for those of you have concerns about appearance on racing boats or not being able to put stickers on folder and skin boats, there is a simple solution. My skin boat and my two folders all have their stickers encased in plastic and are carried whenever I use them. I asked the nice folks at the DNR and they said that would be fine with them as long as I have the registration card showing that the sticker goes with that particular boat. So I have the card on the back of the sticker. I haven't raced slalom in a while, but when I did I raced internationally and NEVER had any scrutineer at the race check-in say anything about the registration stickers on the bow of my boat. That's either a new thing or a misunderstanding on someone's part. Jim Tibensky *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On the other hand Illinois is one of the worst states when it comes to paddling rights on streams. On most of the smaller streams there is no right of passage. The landowner is completely within his right to fence off the stream and have paddlers arrested for trespassing. Lakes formed by otherwise passable, dammed rivers can be subject to local permits costing upwards of $75. I know in other states landowners have blocked passage, but in Illinois they have legal standing. DNR has done very little if anything to improve the situation. ----- Original Message ----- From: "James" <jimtibensky_at_fastmail.fm> > I've told this every time the issue comes up, but I'll repeat it: > > In Illinois we screamed against having to register our canoes and > kayaks. It costs all of $13.00 the first time for a title and three > year registration and then $6.00 to renew for three years. > > "It's not the money" we said. "It's the principle - we get nothing > now, we really need nothing. We can launch just about anywhere." > > But the bill passed and now we register. And now the Department of > Natural Resources listens when we talk and builds us canoe launches when > we make a good case. I have nine kayaks (yeah, I know, it's a disease) > so I pay more than most. But we paddlers now have a bought-and-paid-for > place at the table when issues that affect us come up. And, in my > opinion, we are heard. > > And for those of you have concerns about appearance on racing boats or > not being able to put stickers on folder and skin boats, there is a > simple solution. My skin boat and my two folders all have their > stickers encased in plastic and are carried whenever I use them. I > asked the nice folks at the DNR and they said that would be fine with > them as long as I have the registration card showing that the sticker > goes with that particular boat. So I have the card on the back of the > sticker. > > I haven't raced slalom in a while, but when I did I raced > internationally and NEVER had any scrutineer at the race check-in say > anything about the registration stickers on the bow of my boat. That's > either a new thing or a misunderstanding on someone's part. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Wed, Mar 23, 2005 at 07:26:23AM -0600, James wrote: > But the bill passed and now we register. And now the Department of > Natural Resources listens when we talk and builds us canoe launches when > we make a good case. But do they (for example) defend your right to paddle any navigable stream, by taking aggressive legal action against anyone who tries to prevent that? Do they pursue polluters? Do they work out release schedules (where applicable) to minimize environmental impact and maximize recreational availability? Do they fight developers -- the carpetbagging greedpigs who turn farmland and forest into McMansions and sources of contaminated runoff? Do they work with the paddling community on safety issues and have they acquired at least a basic understanding of what regulations make sense and which don't? Do they aggressively prosecute jet-skiers who harrass and threaten paddlers? And so on. In PA, none of these things have happened. Oh, there are some DNR staff here and there who Get It. They're fine people. Some of them have really made outstanding efforts and should be (and have been) congratulated for it, because they *have*, in isolated instances, done some of these things. But the PA DNR as a whole *clearly* believes that its priorities vis-a-vis recreational water use are power-boaters, with fisherman as a second, and paddlers non-entities. And so its policies and procedures are heavily, almost completely, biased that way. And so we have problems. The DNR has failed to protect Brandywine Creek (a precious, beautiful resource of both natural and historic significance) and has thus permitted it to become increasingly fouled by runoff from encroaching development. The DNR has failed to prosecute aggressive jet-skiers and so now some stretches of the lower Delaware River are rather dangerous to paddle on summer weekends. The Lehigh has been closed off at high flows -- flows which certainly make the river inappropriate for novices, but which leave it well within an acceptable safety margin for a group of strong intermediate or advanced paddlers. There's only 4 days of scheduled water _a year_ on the Tohickon, a prime class III+ creek within an hour of a major population center (Philadelphia). And so on. Putting aside that the DNR is *already* being funded by paddlers, just as they're being funded by every other citizen of the state via their tax dollars, and thus has an obligation to provide services in return, I wouldn't object quite so strenuously to the notion of fees if I had seen, at any time during the last 15 years, some indication that those paying the fees would get _anything_ tangible in return. But they don't. Maybe it's different elsewhere (and that'd be a good thing). But at least in PA, it's "give us your money, now shut up and go away". ---Rsk *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
"Maybe it's different elsewhere (and that'd be a good thing). But at least in PA, it's "give us your money, now shut up and go away". " Not to be a contrarian, but I use DNR access points on a regular basis. I paddle in state parks frequently as well. I like to think my modest $8 a year goes to support the maintenance of & justification for the facilities I use. Maybe things are different out here in the sticks (central PA). Most of the people I run into on the water, be they power boaters, fishermen or jet skiers, are pretty friendly & tend to watch their wakes when passing close by. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I believe that central PA has the best to offer. I live near Pittsburgh and my experience is closer to that of the first poster. I lived for 10 years in the middle of the state and ALL services are much better IMO. My wife keeps asking if I can find work there so we can move back. Ken ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Snoddy" <john_at_snoddy.com> Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Kayak Registration > "Maybe it's different elsewhere (and that'd be a good thing). But at least in PA, it's "give us your money, now shut up and go away". " > > Not to be a contrarian, but I use DNR access points on a regular basis. I paddle in state parks frequently as well. I like to think my modest $8 a year goes to support the maintenance of & justification for the facilities I use. Maybe things are different out here in the sticks (central PA). Most of the people I run into on the water, be they power boaters, fishermen or jet skiers, are pretty friendly & tend to watch their wakes when passing close by. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Mar 23, 2005, at 8:26 AM, James wrote: > But the bill passed and now we register. And now the Department of > Natural Resources listens when we talk and builds us canoe launches > when > we make a good case. I have nine kayaks (yeah, I know, it's a disease) > so I pay more than most. But we paddlers now have a bought-and-paid-for > place at the table when issues that affect us come up. And, in my > opinion, we are heard. > Very interesting. Unfortunately yours is a voice of reason and emotion prevails with respect to this issue, (as it does with most others). Seeing all this coming, I recently proposed on a local mailing list in Florida that if the paddling community in the state proactively wrote, proposed and lobbied for its own registration bill, we could ensure that the idiots in the legislature would not eventually impose a nonsensical one of their own on us and that in this way we might even be able to limit the cost and ensure that we would get some actual benefits from it. The result was that the entire statewide paddling community, (at least so it seemed), rose up in arms against me. I was inundated by an organized campaign of email in protest of my idea. Many of these included a proposal to boycott my business if I continued to support such an idea. I even got a dozen or so hate messages and a couple of threatening phone calls. I was shocked to find this behavior in a community that I had heretofore held in high regard. Unlike the majority of the voting public, I believe that we must all pay a fair share of taxes at all levels. When it comes, (as it surely will), I will cheerfully pay the registration fee and then demand fair representation. I still believe however that a bill designed and proposed by the citizens concerned before the fact would represent them far better than one designed by the representatives and lobbyists of the personal water craft industry. Disgusted in Tallahasse, Michael *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Michael said: I recently proposed on a local mailing list in Florida that if the paddling community in the state proactively wrote, proposed and lobbied for its own registration bill, we could ensure that the idiots in the legislature would not eventually impose a nonsensical one of their own on us and that in this way we might even be able to limit the cost and ensure that we would get some actual benefits from it. and I believe that we must all pay a fair share of taxes at all levels. When it comes, (as it surely will), I will cheerfully pay the registration fee and then demand fair representation. Geez, Michael, Pro-active, sensible, being willing to lead, attempting to organize for the greater good, willing to pay taxes, concerned about your fellow human beings. What in the world were you thinking??? Where would we be if the planet was filled people like you? People like me, who work in the criminal justice system, would be unemployed, for one thing! One can only imagine........ and hope.......... Jim Tibensky *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Sat, Mar 26, 2005 at 11:13:40AM -0500, Michael Lampman wrote: > Unlike the majority of the voting public, I believe that we must all > pay a fair share of taxes at all levels. And there is a major part of the problem. Let me deal with that one and then enumerate a few others: It is far more expedient for politicians to assess "user fees" on paddlers -- or on any other group, for that matter (preferably one that doesn't carry a lot of political clout) than it is to have the integrity and honesty to stand up and say: "We need to raise taxes. We need to pay for schools and roads and parks and police and building inspectors and snow removal and a kazillion other things, and we don't have enough money... so we need to raise taxes." User fees are a cop-out. They're an implicit admission that there isn't enough money in the general fund to pay for these things...and that the politicians enacting them are doing so because they don't have the guts to tell us the truth. Which brings me to some of the other problems: - Just as they don't have the guts to tell the truth, *we* the public, by and large, don't have the guts to listen to it. We prefer to be told "no tax hikes" at the same time there is a crying need for EXACTLY that. And we will vote for people who tell us this -- even though we know they're flat-out lying -- instead of voting for people who tell us the truth and raise our taxes. (I'm gonna skip the whole arguement over tax system design because this is wandering far enough as it is.) - Thinking that user fees will give those paying them a voice is nice. Maybe it will. *Maybe*. But I think it's far more likely that all those voices will be drowned out by the first lobbyist with $200K to drop on a state official or $500K to drop on a national one shows up. A petition from a thousand paddlers is a whisper; a free cruise weekend from a jet ski manufacturer is a shout. - The collection of user/registration fees is inefficient and wasteful: collecting $2 at the river, and $4 at a state park, and $5 at a bike trail, costs a LOT more than collecting $11 at tax time. - User/registration fees are uneven. Not everyone has to pay a user/registration fee for everything or in all places or all the time or anything else. There's really no way around this -- other than not to have them at all. - User/registration fees are also uneven in other ways. Example: Someone who has 4 kayaks and 2 canoes is not necessarily going to make any more use (in terms of user-days) of a state's waterways than someone with 1 kayak. Yet, if they're compelled to register them all, they'll pay 6 times as much. - User/registration fees (as has already been observed) don't always go back into the resources that ostensibly justify their existence. And even if they do, they make a *very* convenient target for raiding at budget-crunch time, doubly so if the raiding can be done quietly. - User/registration fees have an uneven impact on the poor. Those of us here may be fortunate enough to find $3 here or $8 here merely annoying, but for others, it's a barrier. And good *grief*, aren't we wealthy enough as a society to to _at least_ provide unfettered access to natural areas/ outdoor recreation to *everyone*, even the people who can't afford it? Sheesh, they've got so little, I can't really see begrudging them the chance to just take a walk in the woods or a float down the river, even if that means we're paying a tiny increment more. The bottom line is that acquiring, preserving, maintaining, patrolling, etc., natural resources takes money, and as far as "things we spend public money" on go, it seems _to me_ to be a pretty sensible one. So I don't mind paying my share (whatever that works out to be) and I don't even mind paying a little extra to cover the folks who aren't up to covering their own. But let's do it and get it over with: figure out what it costs, put it in the national/state/local general bduget, along with everything else, and then tax accordingly to make it work. And let's stop piddling around with a kazillion user fees/registration fees. ---Rsk *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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