In a message dated 4/27/2005 9:16:05 AM Pacific Standard Time, kayakwriter_at_netscape.net writes: I have a demo inflatable PFD from another company I was comped a few years back in return for a a gear review. I find myself continuing to wear foam PFDs. Generically speaking, the pros and cons of inflatables are: + very low profile. + very cool (this might be really important for tropical paddling, where an inflatable you'll actually wear is argueably safer than a foam PFD jammed on the back deck). - doesn't fit as well once inflated and in the water or float you as comfortably as a foam PFD - awkward to paddle with when fully inflated (can be partially deflated and then reinflated orally if needed) - high front volume forces you higher and less stable during paddle float rescues (again, could be deflated / reinflated, but that's just one more thing to do at an already busy and breathless time.) - CO2 inflator mechanism needs constant care (any divers on the group will know the typical BC CO2 safety mechanism corrodes into uselessness unless well cared for.) - not a "passive" safety device - the user must inflate it (the water-activated types aren't practical for the wet decks of a kayak.) - once "fired," the PDF doesn't meet legal requirements until rearmed with a new cartridge. - pontential for puncture or delamination. A damaged foam PFD will still provide bouyancy. - no pockets for VHF, flares, or survival gear, no lash tabs for a knife or strobe (all things I'd especially want if I were seperated from my boat.) Bottom line for me: unless I was paddling in really hot conditions, where it was an inflatable or heat stroke, I'd opt for a foam filled unit. All the reasons you listed above (and more following) were why I chose a foam pfd that stayed on my back deck during a paddling trip to Costa Rica. At 90F+/100% humidity there wasn't a chance I would put it on. I thought about buying an inflatable, but where in CR am I going to buy 2 of those cartridges? I'm sure they have them but as I shopped for stove fuel I looked for them and did not find them. Perhaps I could have described them better in my limited spanish? They are 15 or 20 bucks here, let alone, CR so that adds a lot of money for something that is *arguably* safer. That, by the way is a statement I will debate. Why not, it's the pfd issue, isn't it? Cons: You cannot fly with the cartridges so you must locate and pay for them at your destination. You need 2 of them, in case you activate 1. An inflatable is conceivably harder to do a reenter and roll, too. Seems like an assisted rescue with an activated inflatable would be cumbersome, but I've never tried it. That is a lot of air between me and a rescuer's deck! (I posted a link at the bottom of this page to show what an activated inflatable looks like) I wouldn't want to be anywhere near surf with an activated inflatable pfd. If I fell over and bumped my head, knocking myself out, I would still need someone to pull the rip cord to activate the inflatable, wouldn't I? If you actually wear a foam pfd through the surf less water will flood your cockpit. This is because the overlap on a spray deck will block more of the water than an inflatable or no pfd. So why is it *arguably* safer? Pros:I would say, that if you were upside down and without a paddle it looks like it could get you close to the surface. A bit of hip flick and hand sculling and viola, a hand roll. Wearing an inactivated inflatable gives the user freedom to duck under surf that a worn foam pfd does not. You can get around the *no pockets* issue with a waist belted dry bag. I don't know what the technical name is but they kept our cameras, snacks, etc., dry and fairly accessible, though not as conveniently as foam pfd pockets. The best benefit of an inflatable pfd instead of a foam one on the back deck is that I can be seen wearing a pfd and not have to explain to everyone why I wasn't wearing a pfd. _http://www.mustangsurvival.com/inflatable-pfd/_ (http://www.mustangsurvival.com/inflatable-pfd/) Cheers, Rob G *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> Cons: > You cannot fly with the cartridges so you must locate and pay for them at > your destination. You need 2 of them, in case you activate 1. Yes, - this is the main reason why I haven't got one for flying south with a foldable kayak. In some places even a stove fuel like white gas is a problem, - and CO2 cartidges won't be available in small hardware stores. Another thing seems serious to me too: foam provides cushioning from physical impact, protecting ribs, when the body is hit against the shore rocks or anything else. I don't know whether inflatable would provide same cushioning when intact, but it definitely won't provide any when punctured. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 4/27/2005 2:07:12 PM Pacific Standard Time, al.m_at_3web.net writes: Yes, - this is the main reason why I haven't got one for flying south with a foldable kayak. In some places even a stove fuel like white gas is a problem, - and CO2 cartidges won't be available in small hardware stores. Another thing seems serious to me too: foam provides cushioning from physical impact, protecting ribs, when the body is hit against the shore rocks or anything else. I don't know whether inflatable would provide same cushioning when intact, but it definitely won't provide any when punctured. Body armor, don't go rock gardening without it! That being said, when I'm far from home in a folding boat I don't do much rock hopping. We did, we had to, in some cases, but I try to minimize. Stoves that burn kerosene, diesel or unleaded work well in Costa "gas blanca es no posible" Rica. Any hardware store carries kerosene cans labeled keroseno or Canfin. Surprised to see Bluet pro/butane! Denatured alcohol is also abundant for those who don't mind spending a half hour boiling a cup of water. In Mexico I saw some of the Coleman green bottles of propane. Rob G *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
>Stoves that burn kerosene, diesel or unleaded work well in Costa "gas blanca es no posible" Rica. Any hardware store carries kerosene cans labeled keroseno or Canfin. Surprised to see Bluet pro/butane! Denatured alcohol is also abundant for those who don't mind spending a half hour boiling a cup of water. Well, it's about 6 minutes (and 2 cups), as I recall from toying with Trangia-Mini. But it eats fuel like hell, and I can justify such a stove for a one-night hiking trip only, - then 1 oz stove and 3-5 oz of fuel makes sense. I'm still carrying it as a back-up. >In Mexico I saw some of the Coleman green bottles of propane Yes, and there are also long blue bottles of same propane (about the size of a wine bottle), with the same thread as green tanks - less stabile for screw-on-top burners, but better than nothing. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
<snip> > All the reasons you listed above (and more following) were why I chose a > foam pfd that stayed on my back deck during a paddling trip to Costa Rica. At > 90F+/100% humidity there wasn't a chance I would put it on. I'm not going to be the PFD nazi or anything, but I will comment that here in Georgia we would never paddle with a PFD from May through September if we found 90F+/100% humidity unbearable. I wear a long sleeved silkweight poly shirt and a PFD all summer long and have never suffered heat stroke or heat exhaustion. I'm not even all that uncomfortable. Maybe I just don't know no better. -- Steve Cramer Athens, GA *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I think there are pros and cons to both foam and inflatables, but I choose to paddle a sea kayak with a manual inflatable life jacket pretty much all of the time. My reasons are: First and foremost foam pfd's all impact on your forward stroke - that's why marathon/sprint racers choose not to wear them. Inflatable I find significantly more comfortable to wear. YMMV but I find very little difference wearing an inflatable to not wearing a buoyancy aid at all In Scotland we have to be prepared for cooler temperatures/precipitation more regularly than too much heat or humidity - and I would rather use clothing designed for the purpose than a foam life jacket for thermal insulation. When it is warm the advantage of the inflatable is clear. If you do swim out of a sea kayak sea water is generally buoyant (unlike aerated white water) and there is typically little need for buoyancy during a rescue. I can swim better in an un-inflated life jacket than a foam pfd There is no advantage to wearing a foam pfd for R&R rescue or rolls (greenlanders for example choose to wear neither for rolling competition) The only time I would imagine you would ever want to inflate a life jacket would be if you wet exited and lost your boat and were awaiting a rescue by a third party. This is the worst case scenario that every sea kayaker should strive to avoid at all cost! If you did discharge a cylinder and needed to use the inflatable jacket again on the same trip they can be inflated by breathing into them - only a few breaths required. Inflatable life jackets are however used universally in yachting - with cylinders available worldwide. In the worst case scenario of trying to survive a long swim without a boat an inflatable life jacket holds an unconscious wearer face up out of the water, pfds don't. The disadvantages: You have to be conscious to manually inflate. However unconscious swimmer in foam pfd drowns anyway. In aerated water you would have to inflate for extra buoyancy, its not there all the time. Inflatables require periodic inspection (ie inflate by breathing into them) and a perhaps a replacement cylinder every few years FWIW: Until sufficient experience is gained to make an informed choice I would recommend a foam pfd - always for novices learning to kayak in all circumstances I choose to wear a foam pfd while paddling ww rivers HTH Cheers Colin www.kayakscotland.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Thursday 28 April 2005 10.14, Colin wrote: > In aerated water you would have to inflate for extra buoyancy, its not > there all the time. Same problem, I persume, do ordinary PFDs have in aerated water? Tord *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Colin wrote: "... I choose to paddle a sea kayak with a manual inflatable life jacket pretty much all of the time." I'm guessing a yoke design? Is that one on Alan Spence at http://www.kayakscotland.com/id18.htm? Couple of thoughts: Do you think the back strap on a yoke inflatable has any entanglement risk, e.g. on back deck fittings? Can you deflate it and refold it easily enough in your boat? Cheers, PT. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Peter wrote: >Is that one on Alan Spence at http://www.kayakscotland.com/id18.htm Yes, although offhand I wouldn't know what brand Alan wears. I have a manual Baltic Winner, compact and with a very comfortable fleece patch at the neck! http://www.balticlifejackets.com >Couple of thoughts: Do you think the back strap on a yoke > inflatable has any entanglement risk, e.g. on back deck fittings? None. If I had any back deck fittings likely to tangle in a life jacket they would also be likely to tangle in hats, croakies, hood draw cords, fabric spray skirt bungee loops, pfd pockets etc etc. > Can you deflate it and refold it easily enough in your boat? Yes. HTH Cheers Colin www.kayakscotland.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I notice the Baltic website says the following about taking inflatables on air flights: "*Can I bring my inflatable Baltic lifejacket when traveling by air?* Yes, According to table 2.3A IATA Dangerous Goods Regulations, you are allowed to bring one small carbon cylinder fitted into an inflatable lifejacket plus one spare cylinder as checked in baggage or carry baggage. To be sure, download this PDF-file <_pdf/IATA_Dangerous_goods.pdf>, print out and bring with you on your traveling." Cheers, PT *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Rob posted (big snip): >Pros:I would say, that if you were upside down and without a paddle it >looks like it could get you close to the surface. A bit of hip flick and >hand sculling and viola, a hand roll. Wearing an inactivated inflatable >gives the user freedom to duck under surf that a worn foam pfd does not. >You can get around the *no pockets* issue with a waist belted dry bag. I >don't know what the technical name is but they kept our cameras, snacks, >etc., dry and fairly accessible, though not as conveniently as foam pfd >pockets. The best benefit of an inflatable pfd instead of a foam one on >the back deck is that I can be seen wearing a pfd and not have to explain >to everyone why I wasn't wearing a pfd. >_http://www.mustangsurvival.com/inflatable-pfd/_ (http://www.mustangsurvival.com/inflatable-pfd/) Cheers, Rob G< I love my Mustang inflatable. I can't imagine paddling without it anymore, though I'm not aware I'm even wearing it when I'm paddling anymore. Forget the sleek body contouring and anatomically correct fit of high-end PFD's, my inflatable is awesome in summer heat and doesn't bunch-up winter drysuit wearing around the torso. I see PaddleNews just added a Sospenders link, so inflatables must be a good thing , right? :-) http://www.paddling.net/buyersguide/accessories/ I have not tried any of the other brands, other than the Mustang units (I have two), but I have seen some of the others up close. I do like the quality and fit of the Canadian Mustang product - the fit is far less f*asci*st! :-) I've never had any corrosion issues with the mechanism. I've heavily modified mine with side pockets that fit on the belt, left and right, and a small back pocket that fits a hydration pack and my SeaSeat. I doubt this is an approved device anymore (though the pockets are a Mustang product). Do I care? No. Do I feel inflatables are the answer for everyone. Of course not. Will I ever go back to a fat foam floaty PFD thingy? Probably not, though a Kokatat hybrid PFD/Inflatable is now available, which I might consider for surf-only use. http://www.mountainmanoutdoors.com/os-pf.php I can send a picture to anyone that wishes to view my Mustang inflatable modifications. I carry a knife, VHF radio, neo scull cap, and neo gloves in the approved pockets (plus some smaller rescue items). I could carry much more in the modified hydration-pack bag, if I didn't have the SeaSeat in there. The items I do carry are all I need in the event of real-life in-water emergency. If things are really bad out there, I usually use a boat-to-paddler leash, so what the heck, I have everything I need attached to me already, um, including my boat. :-) I find the inflatable vest raises my torso so my head remains under water, just below the water surface when I pull the inflator (during tests). Yes, a very good hand roll (in the event a paddle was not available) would be needed to get upright and breathing again. Unfortunately, the inflatable vests do not work like the BackUp righting device/aid, though you can quickly unclip an inflated vest, then push yourself up. But what the heck, if it takes that much trouble to right yourself after a capsize, perhaps one should just stick to open Canadian canoes. Well, I'm happy with mine. Maybe Mark (the original poster, I think) should weigh the pros and cons as Philip laid out, and if budget allows, why not get one of each (an inflatable and a normal PFD, then mix 'em up, using each one individually per outing depending on preference, season and activity). Or, he could make me an offer on all my used foam PFDs that never get used anymore. Well, I'm just happy all around. It warm and sunny in Victoria, the afternoon/evening thermal westerlies are kicking up again at Race Rocks with some hopeful 45-knot days soon to come, I passed my EKG treadmill with mostly flying colours today and got my forehead stitches out from a head injury last week, and Gordin wants to hit the waves with me in favour of his club dread paddles. Why, I feel positively bouyant!!! Doug Lloyd Victoria BC *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Thanks for all the good opinions. Yes it was PaddleNews that got me thinking about inflatables. I have a couple of foamies, but they both feel like straight jackets! I'm going to try on some new ones but wondered if the inflatables were worth considering. I'm hoping maybe I can incorporate some of that mythical rotation I keep hearing about into my stroke with a more comfy PFD. Mark Sanders *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On 29 Apr 2005 at 7:43, Mark Sanders wrote: > I have a couple of foamies, but they both > feel like straight jackets! Take a good look at the low-cut WW PFDs. They are cooler and less restrictive feeling than the "body armour" style PFDs that are common. Mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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