G'Day, I've started moving on from my stock standard get out of trouble every time Pawlatta roll to a C to C roll, which seems easier than the Pawlatta and I can sometimes do it on both sides. Now I've moved on to a sweep roll, which is supposed to be more useful and is our club standard, but I am finding it quite difficult. I've had a lesson in the mechanics of the sweep roll so I know roughly what to do: - roll my wrist forward, push both hands above the water facing upwards, sweep out watching the blade and rotate torso and knee up against the deck still watching the blade until rolling up facing down. I usually have to finish off with a forward sweep low brace. Are there any clues to where I need work in the fact that the C to C seemed easy (pulled it off first time without instruction) and yet the sweep roll seemed difficult, I've only managed to get it right twice and blew it half a dozen times, though granted it was the first lesson? All the best, PeterO *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Peter, Reads as if you've got the mechanics of the roll down. As soon as you feel the paddle take a bite on the water...roll your hips. Just reach (keeping the paddle on the surface) and roll your hips. Your torso rotation (going from face up to face down) will do the sweep part. Just reach and roll your hips. All the best, Jeffrey Bingham *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On 10 Apr 2005 at 21:26, PeterO wrote: > I've had a lesson in the mechanics of the sweep roll so I know > roughly what > to do: - roll my wrist forward, push both hands above the water facing > upwards, sweep out watching the blade and rotate torso and knee up > against the deck still watching the blade until rolling up facing > down. I usually have to finish off with a forward sweep low brace. I'd just like to clarify this for myself. I take it that you're not finishing with a layback, but rather switching directions in the paddle sweep towards the end of the roll so that you sweep forward and end in an upright (sitting) position? Mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Mike wrote I'd just like to clarify this for myself. I take it that you're not finishing with a layback, but rather switching directions in the paddle sweep towards the end of the roll so that you sweep forward and end in an upright (sitting) position? G'Day, That sounds about right. My recollection was that when finishing the roll succesfully I was slightly leaning back, maybe 30 degrees from vertical (not really sure) looking down at the water and then I sat upright with a small low brace, forward sweep. I don't have a good recollection of what was happening when the roll was unsuccessful. All the best, PeterO *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On 11 Apr 2005 at 7:07, PeterO wrote: > My recollection was that when finishing the roll succesfully I was > slightly leaning back, maybe 30 degrees from vertical (not really > sure) looking down at the water and then I sat upright with a small > low brace, forward sweep. I don't have a good recollection of what was > happening when the roll was unsuccessful. Can you do a sweep roll with a high success rate if you do a full layback? If not, I'd work toward that first. Basically, you'd be doing a Pawlata but without an extended paddle. This assumes that you can do a full layback - I know that some folks can't due to the seat/coaming/aging spine/etc. Doing this would ensure that you are actually doing the basic screw roll correctly. Then, it should be easier to transition to an upright recovery - first with a layback followed by a sit-up (and a forward low brace), then successively less layback until you find the minimum amount that you can lean back and still get up. With less layback, you'll likely also be leaning over your paddle a bit more, so the forward sweep isn't going to be just for form. Is it possible that your forward sweep is with a bad paddle angle - hence poor support - when you fail? Mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Mike wrote> >This assumes that you can do a full layback >I know >that some folks can't due to the >seat/coaming/aging spine/etc. G'day Mike and Peter, You're right about the Pittarak coaming it's a bit too high to comfortably do a full lean back, even with a torso as long as mine. Its the only thing I don't really like about the Pittarak. Also I like to face forward after a roll as the only time I've needed to roll is in surf. One day I'll surf waves bigger than a metre without tipping over - but not yet. It sounds as if given the lean back difficulty the advice given by Jeff Bingham might be the way to go. "As soon as you feel the paddle take a bite on the water...roll your hips.". I might have been leaving this too late as a hangover from the C to C where I tend to wait until the paddle is positioned before rolling. What do you think? All the best, PeterO *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
PeterO wrote: > It sounds as if given the lean back difficulty the advice given by Jeff > Bingham might be the way to go. "As soon as you feel > the paddle take a bite on the water...roll your hips.". I might have been > leaving this too late as a hangover from the C to C where I tend to wait > until the paddle is positioned before rolling. Jeff is definitely pointing you in the right direction. Where the C-to-C is a 3-step maneuver (Set up. Sweep out. Snap.), the sweep is more of a single motion (SweepRotateSnap). You don't gotta lean back to make it work if you rotate some. Try to get ahold of Kent Ford's DVD "The Kayak Roll." Great teaching progression and that roll really works. -- Steve Cramer Athens, GA *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On 11 Apr 2005 at 20:07, PeterO wrote: > It sounds as if given the lean back difficulty the advice given by > Jeff Bingham might be the way to go. "As soon as you feel the paddle > take a bite on the water...roll your hips.". I might have been leaving > this too late as a hangover from the C to C where I tend to wait until > the paddle is positioned before rolling. I forgot about that part. As Steve says, this roll is not done in phases, it's one continuous motion. I teach folks to start the kayak rotation with the hips/knees at the same time as you start the sweep. Given the difficulty in trying to layback, you'll have to get the kayak mostly upright before you've swept to 90 degree. If you can do that, the remaining sweep/reverse sweep phase will be to brace your body up over the already-righted kayak. Mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 01:06 PM 4/11/2005 -0400, Michael Daly wrote: >On 11 Apr 2005 at 20:07, PeterO wrote: > > > It sounds as if given the lean back difficulty the advice given by > > Jeff Bingham might be the way to go. "As soon as you feel the paddle > > take a bite on the water...roll your hips.". I might have been leaving > > this too late as a hangover from the C to C where I tend to wait until > > the paddle is positioned before rolling. > >I forgot about that part. As Steve says, this roll is not done in >phases, it's one continuous motion. I teach folks to start the kayak >rotation with the hips/knees at the same time as you start the sweep. >Given the difficulty in trying to layback, you'll have to get the >kayak mostly upright before you've swept to 90 degree. If you can do >that, the remaining sweep/reverse sweep phase will be to brace your >body up over the already-righted kayak. A good exercise for this is to practice rotating the kayak with your hips/knees while holding onto the bow of someone elses boat or the side of a pool. When I'm teaching beginners how to "hip snap" I have them do the following. Grab onto the bow of another boat or the side of the pool and lean over until your head is in the water. Then try rotating the boat over as far as possible with your hips/knees. Then, without taking your head out of the water try to rotate the boat back upright as much as possible. In order to get the feeling of rotating the boat rather than "snapping" it back upright, I'll have them count to three as the boat goes from an upside down position to right side up. I find that having them turn the boat over with their hips, rather than think of "hip snapping" actually helps them keep their head down. When the focus is on a sharp "hip snap" often the snap is more of a "pull down hard on the paddle" than a quick rotation of the hips as they try to bring their head out of the water. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
John Fereira wrote: > A good exercise for this is to practice rotating the kayak with your > hips/knees while holding onto the bow of someone elses boat or the side > of a pool. When I'm teaching beginners how to "hip snap" I have them do > the following. > > Grab onto the bow of another boat or the side of the pool and lean over > until your head is in the water. Then try rotating the boat over as far > as possible with your hips/knees. Then, without taking your head out of > the water try to rotate the boat back upright as much as possible. Adding to the last sentence of John's comment, I've found it useful to stress rotating the boat to upright and ignoring bringing the body and head out of the water. The C-to-C encourages a model of the body movement as physically analogous to grabbing the end of a hammer handle and bringing it from horizontal to vertical by a twisting motion of the forearm. In other words, the torso moves through an arc in a plane perpendicular to the line of the kayak. If you can stop worrying about getting your body up (yes, I do realize that that's the purpose of the exercise...) and leave it there supported by the water, the boat can rotate better around its long axis and pull you our of the water. That's how it feels when you do it right. I love this advice by accretion model... -- Steve Cramer Athens, GA *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 02:34 PM 4/11/2005 -0400, Steve Cramer wrote: >John Fereira wrote: > >>A good exercise for this is to practice rotating the kayak with your >>hips/knees while holding onto the bow of someone elses boat or the side >>of a pool. When I'm teaching beginners how to "hip snap" I have them do >>the following. >>Grab onto the bow of another boat or the side of the pool and lean over >>until your head is in the water. Then try rotating the boat over as far >>as possible with your hips/knees. Then, without taking your head out of >>the water try to rotate the boat back upright as much as possible. > >Adding to the last sentence of John's comment, I've found it useful to >stress rotating the boat to upright and ignoring bringing the body and >head out of the water. The C-to-C encourages a model of the body movement >as physically analogous to grabbing the end of a hammer handle and >bringing it from horizontal to vertical by a twisting motion of the >forearm. In other words, the torso moves through an arc in a plane >perpendicular to the line of the kayak. If you can stop worrying about >getting your body up (yes, I do realize that that's the purpose of the >exercise...) and leave it there supported by the water, the boat can >rotate better around its long axis and pull you our of the water. That's >how it feels when you do it right. Exactly. When practicing "boat rotation" at pool sessions I'll suggest looking at the bottom of the pool and keeping your face in the water until the boat is rotated upright. Another aid I've found helpful is to use one of those foam kick boards. Try rolling up while holding onto a foam kick board (an inflatable paddlefloat works as well) and you pretty much have to rotate the boat upright before you can lift your body out of the water. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Peter O, I think you might have to adapt whatever rolls you do to the relatively high back coaming of your Pittarak. It's difficult in a Pittarak to get the back of your head near the back deck. Cheers, PT *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Another way to say the same thing (for the sweep roll), that some might visualize better, is to ask the student to keep their upper body (waist up) parallel to the sweeping paddle while using their knees and hips to roll the boat under their butts as far as they can before the upper body rises. Of course, this presumes that the boat is well (ok, at least reasonably) outfitted for rolling. Erik Sprenne *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
G'Day Thanks everyone for the analysis and hints on the sweep roll. I was going to take a four day break at Disaster Bay but http://facs.scripps.edu/surf/gblpac.html and https://www.fnmoc.navy.mil/CGI/ww3_area.cgi?color=b&area=spac suggest 4 meter waves and 25 knot winds which is way too much for me. These are great sites for anyone interested in sea conditions. Probably saved me 4 days stuck on a beach as our local Met forecast gives just four days advance wind predictions. Anyway I'll now get a great opportunity to practice rolling and surfing in the relatively benign coast near Myrtle beach on the south coast. All the best, PeterO *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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