I was directed to the web site for Evolution Kayaks, a new company formed by Bill Masters who I believe founded Perception Kayaks. http://www.evolutionkayaks.com/tec_pro2.html The site isn't complete yet and no pictures but I did find this at the above URL Products In addition, however, the true innovation is found in the unique parabolic shape of the boat's design and the way it performs, a lot like a parabolic ski (snow ski). Thanks to a thermal vacuum forming process that aesthetically creates unique curves and color variations, the groove (where you sit, the cockpit), just like on a ski (where the binding & boot are located), is parabolic, so the shape aids in turning. Therefore, The Diversion 16-3, at 16 feet long, allows for remarkable, increased maneuverability & responsiveness. A popular feature of the Diversion line is its hidden waterproof bulkhead, allowing water to easily run off. Catch a glimpse of this exciting kayak! Does anyone know anything about this boat and its features. Cheers John Winters *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
John Winters wrote: > I was directed to the web site for Evolution Kayaks, a new company > formed by Bill Masters who I believe founded Perception Kayaks. > http://www.evolutionkayaks.com/tec_pro2.html > > The site isn't complete yet and no pictures....... > > Does anyone know anything about this boat and its features. Yes, it is the Perception Bill Masters. I paddled one on flat water in Charleston. They are, to put it mildly, radical in design. The rep said that one of the design goals was to make the boat look like a Jaguar, and it does look more sports carish than kayakish. The cockpit is located at the narrowest point of the boat; it's wider both fore and aft. Paddling it, it seems like there is an awful lot of boat out in front of you. I would liken the visual sensation to driving a Lincoln Continental from the back seat. The hull at the waterline is much narrower than the deck, so speed is better than you would expect. Stability is massive; I leaned way over and could hardly get the thing to heel at all. I didn't think the handling was terribly responsive; if you're expecting it to carve like a snowboard you'll be disappointed. Cargo volume is huge, although they haven't designed the hatches yet. -- Steve Cramer Athens, GA *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Steve wrote: - >Stability is massive; I leaned way over and could >hardly get the thing >to heel at all. I didn't >think the handling was terribly responsive; G'Day, Sounds as if this might be an uncomfortable boat in big swell or choppy water? Has anyone tried it in 1 to 2m sea? Is it suitable for that purpose? All the best, PeterO *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On 3 May 2005 at 13:18, John Winters wrote: > The site isn't complete yet and no pictures There's a picture on the History page. That's one odd looking kayak. The word "ugly" comes to mind. Mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I wonder how they roll, with that high stern? *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Yea, I have one of them in black - - - - - I strap it to my roof rack in winter and carry my skis in it. :-) michael ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Daly" <mikedaly_at_magma.ca> Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Evolution Kayaks > There's a picture on the History page. That's one odd looking kayak. > The word "ugly" comes to mind. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Evolution also list a single US retailer, Sunrift in South Carolina. There's another picture there. http://www.sunrift.com/evolutionkayaks.html It's a more flattering picture but looks more like a boattail speedster (car) than a kayak. http://www.seriouswheels.com/def/Deco-Rides-Foose-Boattail-Speedster-R-Evening-1280x960.htm or http://tinyurl.com/9cl6x On Tue, 03 May 2005 13:18:24 -0300, "John Winters" <jdwinters_at_eastlink.ca> said: > I was directed to the web site for Evolution Kayaks, a new company formed > by Bill Masters who I believe founded Perception Kayaks. > http://www.evolutionkayaks.com/tec_pro2.html > > The site isn't complete yet and no pictures but I did find this at the > above URL Products -- Kirk Olsen *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Profile looks a wee bit like a white water racer: http://www.doubledutchuk.com/wwr_pictures.htm I wonder for what purpose the evolution kayak is desgned for? Cheers Colin www.kayakscotland.com > Evolution also list a single US retailer, Sunrift in South Carolina. > There's another picture there. > > http://www.sunrift.com/evolutionkayaks.html > > It's a more flattering picture but looks more like a boattail > speedster > (car) > than a kayak. > > http://www.seriouswheels.com/def/Deco-Rides-Foose-Boattail-Spe > edster-R-Evening-1280x960.htm > or http://tinyurl.com/9cl6x *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
----- Original Message ----- From: "Colin Calder" <colin.calder_at_abdn.ac.uk> > I wonder for what purpose the evolution kayak is desgned for? pureley capitalistic purposes. Not that there is anything wrong with that its just that it looks more like something my 8 yr old nephew got at Toys-R-Us than a kayak. michael *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I'm all for innovation in kayak designs. Regardless of your aesthetic preferences, the kayak does appear to be innovative. This says nothing about whether the idea is worth a damn, but it is good to see someone taking a sharp turn in a unusual direction. While there is little that is truly new in boat design, a radical failure is a lot more fun than another mediocre copy. I wish the guy luck and hope he or we learn something useful from his efforts. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I would wonder if it tends to be broach resistant! Tinkerntom -----Original Message----- From: Colin Calder Profile looks a wee bit like a white water racer: http://www.doubledutchuk.com/wwr_pictures.htm I wonder for what purpose the evolution kayak is desgned for? *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Frankly I like Nick Schade's attempt at that sort of look better. A wee bit more taste to it in the Aleutesque. That Evolution thing looks like a cross betwen my roof rack ski locker and one of those Transformer action figures. http://www.guillemot-kayaks.com/Building/Guillemot/Aleutesque/Images/Stern.jpg http://www.kayakforum.com/Albums/Aleutesque/108-0815_IMG_JPG.html http://www.kayakforum.com/Albums/Aleutesque/108-0813_IMG_JPG.html http://www.guillemot-kayaks.com/Building/Guillemot/Aleutesque/index.html ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kirk Olsen" <kork4_at_cluemail.com> > > It's a more flattering picture but looks more like a boattail speedster > (car) > than a kayak. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
"tnksng" wrote: <Snip>>>>>I would also suspect that the design has some interesting handling characteristics in following seas, and may not be as inclined to broach. The high profile makes me wonder though about handling in a wind. It would seem to have a significant lee helm, which may be undesirable, but would have to be proven in sea trials.<<<<<<<Snip> I would guess that it was designed to lean into turns to carve them. If that is the case the kayak should broach quicker (all other things being equal) because staying upright while angling across the wave would mean it would want to carve into more of a broach rather than work to resist broaching. The far stern position of the paddler should work against the normal tendency to weathercock. How well it does that or if it lee cocks will have a lot to do with the underwater shape as well as the windage balance, the cockpit placement, and the trim. I'm in full agreement with Nick on this, I love to see innovation. The proof will be in the paddling, but it is always fun to try to predict the performance of a kayak by looking at it (or even at a few pictures of it that don't even show the hull). I'm also betting on a wet ride in short steep waves from both green water coming over the low downward sloping bow deck and from spray due to the extreme flair forward flinging water off the hull to the side and into the wind. It should have great secondary stability with all that flair out towards the ends but I suspect a more traditional shape will likely be faster. I could be wrong here though, that coke bottle shape may be just what it needs to help it break the wave barrier. Hey, I'm not just making this up, there may be a precedent here, a coke bottle shape supposedly helped jet airplanes slip through the sound barrier easier. That was the theory back in the 50's or 60's anyhow, I don't know if that theory has stood the test of time. If you lean it the opposite way to turn it (than you do most kayaks) then expert paddlers will likely not like it, especially at first, because it will contradict their internalized prior learning. The picture from the stern reminded me of a wasps abdomen. What is a hidden waterproof bulkhead. At the very least it is a diversion from your normal, hum drum, look-a-like kayaks. It is already generating a lot of buzz, at least on Paddlewise. Matt Broze http://www.marinerkayaks.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Matt wrote: - >It should have great secondary stability >with all that flair out towards the ends G'Day, Does solid secondary stability generally correlate with a less comfortable ride in choppy water? i.e with increased stability and less tendency to stay vertical on a wave, is the ride likely to be less comfortable? I seem to feel that in boats I've paddled. All the best, PeterO *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
"PeterO" <rebyl_kayak_at_iprimus.com.au> > Does solid secondary stability generally correlate with a less comfortable > ride in choppy water? i.e with increased stability and less tendency to > stay > vertical on a wave, is the ride likely to be less comfortable? I seem to > feel that in boats I've paddled. Peter, can you pin down "less comfortable ride" a little? Not sure what a less comfortable ride might be in a sea kayak. -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Dave wrote and John reiterated >Peter, can you pin down "less comfortable ride" >a little? Not sure what a less comfortable ride >might be in a sea kayak. G'Day Dave and John, First I may be confusing the effects of primary and secondary stability, I'll ask you to judge. Pinning down 'comfortable ride' When paddling in flat water my Pittarak feels quite tippy compared with a hard chined wooden boat that I borrow occasionally. When paddling these boats unloaded, through 1 to 1.5 meter rebound, I mostly use my hips rather than a brace stroke to 'edge' the boat vertical leaning into the waves a bit. With the tippy Pittarak this is done unconsciously and came naturally with no need to practice. With the more stable chined boat I need to work consciously and harder with my hips or else allow the boat to tip from the vertical, which is mildly disorienting and encourages the need to low brace. Maybe its nothing more than being used to the Pittarak, but I was curious about the effect of boat stability on ride stability in choppy water and because someone commented that the Evolution kayak was very stable in flat water I wondered if it might be less 'comfortable' in rebound. All the best, PeterO *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
From: "PeterO" <rebyl_kayak_at_iprimus.com.au> > First I may be confusing the effects of primary and secondary stability, > [snip] > > Pinning down 'comfortable ride' When paddling in flat water my Pittarak > feels quite tippy compared with a hard chined wooden boat that I borrow > occasionally. > > When paddling these boats unloaded, through 1 to 1.5 meter rebound, I > mostly > use my hips rather than a brace stroke to 'edge' the boat vertical leaning > into the waves a bit. With the tippy Pittarak this is done unconsciously > and > came naturally with no need to practice. With the more stable chined boat I > need to work consciously and harder with my hips or else allow the boat to > tip from the vertical, which is mildly disorienting and encourages the need > to low brace. Peter, I believe your "more comfortable" corresponds to the boat which is less affected by changes in the angle of the sea surface from horizontal ... meaning: the boat with lesser initial stability (the Pittarak) demands less conscious effort on your part to maintain an even keel. OTOH, the greater inital stability of the hard chined wooden boat makes it rotate more around its long axis in response to seas ... which I think makes it feel "less comfortable" to you. I don't believe in either case are you describing the boats on edge, so it is mainly their initial stability which you are comparing. -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Dave wrote >Peter, I believe your "more comfortable" corresponds >to the boat which is less affected by changes in the >angle of the sea surface from horizontal ... G'Day Dave, Thanks for the clear description and the opinion on whether it was initial or secondary stability. On reflection I think you are probably right for the Pittarak which has a fairly smooth transition between initial and secondary stability, but I'm not sure about the hard chined boat. I started drawing cross section diagrams from memory of the chined hull and was trying to remember the range of angles of the sea surface from horizontal in 1 to 1.5m rebound waves! If they are as much as 30 degrees then surely most chined boats would have to be edged beyond their point of initial stability? I'll maybe take a hemispherical spirit level with me next time! All the best, PeterO *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 03:52 PM 5/9/2005 -0700, Dave Kruger wrote: >From: "PeterO" <rebyl_kayak_at_iprimus.com.au> > >>First I may be confusing the effects of primary and secondary stability, >>[snip] >> >>Pinning down 'comfortable ride' When paddling in flat water my Pittarak >>feels quite tippy compared with a hard chined wooden boat that I borrow >>occasionally. >> >>When paddling these boats unloaded, through 1 to 1.5 meter rebound, I mostly >>use my hips rather than a brace stroke to 'edge' the boat vertical leaning >>into the waves a bit. With the tippy Pittarak this is done unconsciously and >>came naturally with no need to practice. With the more stable chined boat I >>need to work consciously and harder with my hips or else allow the boat to >>tip from the vertical, which is mildly disorienting and encourages the need >>to low brace. > >Peter, I believe your "more comfortable" corresponds to the boat which is >less affected by changes in the angle of the sea surface from horizontal >... meaning: the boat with lesser initial stability (the Pittarak) >demands less conscious effort on your part to maintain an even >keel. OTOH, the greater inital stability of the hard chined wooden boat >makes it rotate more around its long axis in response to seas ... which I >think makes it feel "less comfortable" to you. > >I don't believe in either case are you describing the boats on edge, so it >is mainly their initial stability which you are comparing. Agreed. And just so there is no confusion: initial stability is the same thing as primary stability. Both terms describe the amount of resistance there is to moving the kayak from a "resting" state to a tilted state. A boat with high initial (primary) stability would provide more resistant to edging toward a wave. With more resistance the boat will tend to follow the shape of the wave, moving your center of gravity away from your center of buoyancy, resulting in a more uncomfortable ride. John Fereira jaf30_at_cornell.edu Ithaca, NY *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 09:18 PM 5/9/2005 +1000, PeterO wrote: >Matt wrote: - > >It should have great secondary stability > >with all that flair out towards the ends > >G'Day, > >Does solid secondary stability generally correlate with a less comfortable >ride in choppy water? i.e with increased stability and less tendency to stay >vertical on a wave, is the ride likely to be less comfortable? I seem to >feel that in boats I've paddled. Like Dave K. I'm wondering what "less comfortable ride" means. However, it may also be worth defining what "solid secondary stability" means. Secondary stability really doesn't have anything to do with staying vertical but is more the amount of resistance to a complete capsize when the hull is "on edge". From paddling lot of different boats I find that how far one edges the boat to get to a secondary stability point varies greatly. I also find that the transition from a primary stability point to a secondary point can be even of greater importance than how "solid" the secondary stability is once you get there. It's especially noticeable in a hard chined boat where the primary stability feels a bit twitchy, but once the boat is edged way over it feels stable. On my soft chined VCP Skerray it feels since and stable sitting vertical and feels like it transitions to it's secondary stability point gradually. Finally, I've paddled some boats don't take much of an edge to get to a solid secondary point, but the boat can edge past it easily and unless you've got a good brace, there's nothing left to prevent a complete capsize. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
PeterO asked: >>>>>>Does solid secondary stability generally correlate with a less comfortable ride in choppy water? i.e with increased stability and less tendency to stay vertical on a wave, is the ride likely to be less comfortable? I seem to feel that in boats I've paddled.<<<<<<< I think John and Dave did excellent jobs of answering that, and yes I think you were confusing secondary stability with primary (initial) stability. The only things I would like to add to what they wrote is that I like a progressive secondary stability that doesn't peak until a large angle of lean combined with a low initial stability. Effortless to lean at first but much more secure feeling when leaned than a kayak with high initial stability (or one with low initial and low secondary stability). If viewing a stability curve (such as in Sea Kayaker magazine reviews), this looks like a straight line of increasing stability with increased lean. If the line on the graph is initially too much towards the vertical (high initial stability) you won't be able too lean at much of an angle before the stability line starts to bend and shallow out (and once it starts to shallow out you aren't in the steadily increasing stability situation I like any longer). If the line starts out from zero degrees nearly horizontal (little or no initial stability) there won't be much secondary stability either unless the curve takes a turn upward later (and then you don't get the comfortably consistent progressive increase in stability with lean). The greater the angle of lean before the curve starts to bend and shallow out the more the kayak can be leaned and still have that cushion of even greater stability helping keep you from leaning further too quickly--possibly accidentally capsizing or at least having to throw in a quick brace. I wrote about secondary stability much more in the FAQ's on our website. High initial stability I likened to leaning a four legged chair, high secondary stability seems more analogous to a rocking chair. If you made the rockers on a rocking chair the arc of a relatively small circle that would be more analogous to neither initial or secondary stability. Sea Kayaker also did a good technical sidebar on this subject of how to interpret their stability graphs in their Spring 1986 issue (reprinted at the end of the Mariner XL review on our website for those who don't happen to have it handy--five different kayak's stability curves are also in that review and article). To answer the question above more directly, it is the low initial stability that causes the Pittarak to automatically not be tipped in side waves (essentially by not offering the wave much lever arm with which to tip it). The kayak with low initial and high secondary also doesn't give the wave much of a lever but is also much more comfortable doing leaned turns and is usually comfortable when on the face of even a steep wave or breaker (unless the deck is too low and too wide such that the wave or breaker can get on top of the side deck, where the falling water can essentially get a good grip on the edge sticking into it and tip the kayak in towards the wave). Matt Broze www.marinerkayaks.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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