The almost heart attack at the safety clinic I hosted has been churning in my mind. We had our club meeting Tues and we got into it about liability, insurance, and safety for an hour and a half. Very into it. I asked our club to use this incident as a wake up call. They did the usual and looked bored with a few snickers thrown in. The few people that engaged in the discussion love the status quo. It was draining. There seems to be a lot of exposure when trying to do the right thing and help train your club. It doesnt seem worth it. After five years of a handful of us gently trying to help these paddlers with skills 80% cant low brace. I wasnt looking for a miracle. Just something more than a rolling over and passing of gas. I am not sure I will renew my club membership next year and wont be helping in formal settings anymore. That makes me feel a bit empty. Does your club have insurance? We are looking into ACA, PAC and private insurance. The paperwork requirements for the ACA insurance are steep. Anyone here been in a club that has been sued? Successfully sued? Legal opinions from law professionals? Anyone stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night? Jeez I hate this... Jim (feeling alone and not at all like et al) *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> The almost heart attack at the safety clinic I hosted has been > churning > in my mind. We had our club meeting Tues and we got into it about > liability, insurance, and safety for an hour and a half. Very into > it. I asked our club to use this incident as a wake up call. They > did the usual and looked bored with a few snickers thrown in. The > few people that engaged in the discussion love the status quo. It > was draining. There seems to be a lot of exposure when trying to do > the right thing and help train your club. It doesnt seem worth it. > After five years of a handful of us gently trying to help these > paddlers with skills 80% cant low brace. I wasnt looking for a > miracle. Just something more than a rolling over and passing of gas. I > am not sure I will renew my club membership next year and wont be > helping in formal settings anymore. That makes me feel a bit empty. > Does your club have insurance? We are looking into ACA, PAC and > private insurance. The paperwork requirements for the ACA insurance > are steep. Anyone here been in a club that has been sued? > Successfully sued? Legal opinions from law professionals? Anyone stay > at a Holiday Inn Express last night? Jeez I hate this... > > Jim (feeling alone and not at all like et al) Jim, Over the years I have acquired a significant amount of disillusionment over the concept of people acting in groups. When our local kayak group decided to "get serious" and form a "proper" club with an executive, membership dues (and insurance for the executive/club/trip leaders), a small group of us decided to just opt out. It just wasn't worth the hassle. We have a relatively active group of paddlers who just want to paddle together. We don't do formal training. We don't have official trip leaders. We just arrange to meet at a spot and go for a paddle. There are a number of downsides to this, of course. Where does the new paddler get proper safety lessons, forward stroke lessons, rolling lessons? Not from us. Not in any official sense at least. We're happy to help another paddler: we do look out for each other on the water, and we strongly discourage people from coming with us without the proper equipment or without the proper experience for the conditions. And we explain why. But that about as far as it goes. We use the golf analogy. People don't belong to golfing clubs (as opposed to having a membership at a golfing FACILITY). Golfers do not join a club of golfers in order to take lessons, learn safety, etc. They do take out a membership (in many cases) in order to be able to use the facilities of a golf course. But they spend extra time and money to take lessons, perhaps from the pro at a golf course facility, perhaps from some other pro. If some one sets up a foursome to play golf, there is no "leader". If one of the players drops dead of a heart attack on the 8th green, the surviving spouse is not going to take the remaining three players to court (not with any chance of success, at least). No one signs waivers in order to join a foursome. Of course the analogy breaks down in some areas. It's an analogy; not a perfect replication of the situation. I can take forward stroke lessons, rolling lessons, wilderness medicine, first aid, survival, etc. courses to my heart's content on my own. As an adult, I expect myself to behave in a responsible manner. Knowing that not everyone out there has the same view of "responsible" that I do, I will still paddle with people who feel that they are meeting their view of "responsible". However, I don't paddle with people whose idea of "responsible" to too much different than mine, and I would expect others to do the same for me. Oh dear, I am starting to wander. Perhaps I should just sum up and stop. Clubs can be good. Clubs can be a royal PITA. Clubs are not essential. Paddling is essential (or at least I think so). Enjoy being on the water! -- Darryl *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In the Portland, OR, metro area, two sea kayaking organizations have taken different tacks to these issues. I do not know the details of either, just the scurrilous gossip for each. Sanitized versions below, to stimulate more authoritative responses from both groups. OOPS (Oregon Ocean Paddling Society): long-time broad-based group accomodating multiple skill levels from novice to expert, which went through a metamorphosis about 10 years ago, centered on the liability exposure of officers and board members. Seems to have a decent training program, shepherded by kind and generous souls. OOPS: http://www.oopskayak.org/about_us.htm Note their trips policy statement: http://www.oopskayak.org/documents/Policies.rtf Shellbacks: much newer, elite group, focused on high-skill paddling, with a quasi-military-style organization, Not democratic at all. Membership by invitation only. Don't know what they do about insurance, but perhaps the founder, Steve Scherrer, can be enticed to elaborate on that. Has some of the most aggressive paddlers in our area, including a strong focus on formal certification and skill development. Shellbacks: http://www.shellback.net/about.html Note the "Crew Only Area" accessed from their Home page. -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
With all of the responsibility and authority that is given to the OOPS Trip Leaders, I'd be very afraid of getting sued personally. If the leader is able to kick someone off of a trip because they lack the required skills, than if someone gets hurt, the trip leader could be legally liable for saying this person was capable of doing a particular trip. That's one of the reasons that our club doesn't use Trip Leaders. Steve Holtzman Southern Calif. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I see this as the problem with a formalized leader system. While it has the potential of being the safest system, the leader must be competent and really on top of the situation. If the leadership falters in some way, all the responsibility still lies with the leader. It is possible that the leader is just not qualified, in which case the liability is passed up to who ever approved that person as a leader. What typically happens is the leader feels compelled to keep a short leash and rule with an iron fist. If someone wanders from the group, the leader needs to call them back, if someone is not following instruction the leader is forced to ban them from the group. In other words, the leader's main task is as the Fun-Nazi; anyone varying from the set plan must be quashed. This is no fun for the followers, so they evolve away from club sponsored trips. It is no fun for the leaders so they stop volunteering to lead trips, or to keep it fun they loosen the reins and compromise the safety the system was intended to promote. Unfortunately, what tends to happen is a small groups of compatible paddlers form around the periphery of the club. These groups tend to be exclusive and fairly closed. While they would like more members, outsiders don't know about them and don't have the opportunity to learn the skills desired by the existing members. If the original larger club can be maintained with enough diversity it can serve as a training ground for new members to work their way into the sub-groups. On Jun 30, 2005, at 8:45 PM, Steve Holtzman wrote: > If the leader is able to kick someone off of a trip because they > lack the > required skills, than if someone gets hurt, the trip leader could > be legally > liable for saying this person was capable of doing a particular trip. > > That's one of the reasons that our club doesn't use Trip Leaders. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Nick Schade said: > > Unfortunately, what tends to happen is a small groups of > compatible paddlers form around the periphery of the club. > These groups tend to be exclusive and fairly closed. While > they would like more members, outsiders don't know about them > and don't have the opportunity to learn the skills desired by > the existing members. > > If the original larger club can be maintained with enough > diversity it can serve as a training ground for new members > to work their way into the sub-groups. This is pretty much the way our club works, but fortunately, we don't have the exclusivity that Nick mentions, and parts of one subgroup will periodically paddle with another one. Our groups have formed in two areas. Some are geographic and others are types of paddling. For example, there is one group that prefers rock gardening and surfing in small boats. Then there is another group of the club that comprises the better paddlers in the southern part of the club. Duane Strosaker, who paddles with them has given them the nickname of OCBA or Orange County Bad As**s. The group I usually paddle with has named themselves the "Old Farts". Most are over 50, but we do allow younger people to paddle with us, if they have the skills required. Occasionally, we also host easier trips and practice sessions to help newer paddlers develop and practice the skills required for open ocean paddling, crossings, surf, etc. Since we all live in California, the land of litigation, we are all too familiar with the possible legal ramifications. That is why, on the advice of a prominent local attorney and club member, we use hosts and not leaders. We spell out explicitly, that the individual is responsible for assessing his/her skills and equipment for the suitability of a particular paddle. It only takes one time where they are towed or explicitly told that their skills are not up the group's level before they start attending practice sessions and not the regular weekly paddles. Most people usually ask us after a few practice sessions, if we agree with them about their skill level. Steve Holtzman *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
on 7/7/05 01:56, Steve Holtzman at sh_at_actglobal.net wrote: > That is why, on the advice > of a prominent local attorney and club member, we use hosts and not leaders. > We spell out explicitly, that the individual is responsible for assessing > his/her skills and equipment for the suitability of a particular paddle. I like this idea, could you expand on the explicit spelling? While we haven't - yet - stumbled down the crazy path of litigation, the walk has begun. Last week a Coroner's Inquest into the death of a skier from California heard calls from his family for someone to be held responsible. He was skiing alone on a groomed field, and no-one saw what happened, but his body was recovered from a small creek. The family asked that "all" hazards be identified and marked. It was pointed out that outdoor recreation involves a potentially hazardous, changing, environment. Hopefully, common sense will win, but for how long? Cheers JKA -- John Kirk-Anderson Banks Peninsula NEW ZEALAND *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
John Kirk-Anderson said: > I like this idea, could you expand on the explicit spelling? > > While we haven't - yet - stumbled down the crazy path of > litigation, the walk has begun. > John, The waiver I use for non-club hosted trips is: This is not a CKF or any other club sponsored paddle. We will have experienced paddlers on this trip, but they will not be responsible for telling you what is or is not safe for you to do. We watch out for one another and assist one another, but all individuals are responsible for, and manage their own safety. This responsibility includes assessing your gear, skill level, and physical conditioning relative to conditions and location, as well as making decisions about what you will or will not do. Participants acknowledge that kayaking on the open sea is inherently dangerous and can lead to physical injury including death as well as property damage. Injuries include but are not limited to: Drowning, hypothermia, physical injury from surf, rock collision, boat collision, high seas. Participants, their heirs and assignees, agree to hold the announcers and other participants blameless in the event of such injury, damage or death.. The following is the wording that we use for club hosted trips. It requires a complete individual form for each participant. According to the lawyers, it is a little better than the personal one above that has everybody sign the same form - but is much more convenient and quicker. California Kayak Friends Activity Disclaimer and Waiver Agreement To be signed by all people joining CKF trips on land or water! Participation in any CKF event, whether or not this form is signed, is evidence that participants agree to the terms and conditions of this Agreement. Please read this Agreement carefully. It is your acknowledgement that your participation in the activities of California Kayak Friends (CKF) involves some risk of harm to you. Among other things, it also acknowledges that you assume the risks involved and will be totally responsible for taking those risks, for the cost of medical and rescue services and for defending yourself in certain suits. THE RISKS I know I might be exposed to the risks of exposure to hypothermia or hyperthermia; risks inherent in water sports, such as drowning; risks of injury from collision with other kayaks, boats, structures or rocks, and from land and sea animals such as sharks and bears; risks of infection and illness in areas without medical facilities; and that I might be involved in an auto or other accident on my way to or from the trip. Although CKF activities generally involve ocean or fresh water kayaking, they also entail events in mountainous, desert or rocky terrain, in remote and undeveloped areas. Thus, risks normally inherent in such adventure travel are possible, including, but not limited to falling, becoming lost, snake bite, or running out of food or water. These hazards may result in injury or death and loss of or damage to personal property of paddlers or others. I realize that the only requirement for leading/hosting/convening (here called "hosting") a CKF trip is CKF membership. Hosts are rarely professional or trained guides. Hosts are not necessarily certified in Fist Aid, CPR or Lifesaving and do not necessarily carry a first aid kit available to group members. Nor do they necessarily carry VHF radio, signaling gear or other emergency equipment. Hosts are not necessarily skilled in or available for performing rescues in the event of capsize, or for towing in rough conditions. Hosts are not necessarily trained in skills instruction and thus are not generally available to aid guests in developing safe or efficient paddling techniques. I realize that CKF trips often do not meet generally accepted leader-to-paddler ratios or other safety criteria, since paddlers assume full responsibility for their own safety. I know that CKF carries no liability or medical insurance of any kind covering me or my equipment. THE RELEASE AND ASSUMPTION OF RISKS I, the undersigned, acknowledge having read the foregoing. I understand that CKF activities involve risks of harm to myself, my companions and my property and I understand that this description does not include all of the risks which I might encounter in participating in CKF activities. I assume all of the risks involved in participating in CKF activities whether or not I know that the risk exists. In joining this CKF activity I accept the responsibility to personally investigate the risks involved and to make my own independent decision as to whether I am qualified to participate in this activity, I assume full responsibility for determining the conditions of the water, land and weather before and during the trip, and the suitability of those conditions for any particular paddling or other activity. I assume full responsibility for assuring that my paddling equipment and accessories are proper to meet the safety needs of the conditions in which I will be paddling. In joining this trip I certify that I possess sufficient knowledge, skills and judgment to determine my own activities during the trip. I further certify that I am knowledgeable regarding safety equipment and its proper use and have outfitted myself and my boat as I determine in my own best interest. I am responsible for deciding when and to what extent I will follow the Host's direction and when I will chose to act independently of the group. I understand that, in paying any fee charged by the Host, that I do not presume anything different than described in this disclosure and waiver. I also understand that any claims or representations regarding safety or other matters made by the Host are not binding on the Releasees. I further release CKF, its officers, directors, trip Hosts, organizers, fellow participants and each of their agents, associates, employees, heirs and estates (collectively referred to as Releasees) from any and all claims and liability arising out of strict liability or negligence of the Releasees, or of any other person which causes the undersigned injury, death, damages, or property loss or damage. I further agree not to bring any suit or other proceeding or to hold them responsible for any injury to myself or my property. I also agree that, if any suit or other action is brought by any of my relatives, heirs or other persons, arising out of my participation in CKF activities (whether I am the cause or victim of an injury), either I or my estate (in the event of my death, property which might otherwise have been given to my heirs) will pay all costs and expenses, including attorney's fees, court costs, and judgment or award, incurred by or against any of the Releasees in defending against any such proceeding. The foregoing notwithstanding, I do not release Releasees from insured claims or losses arising from motor vehicle accidents, to the extent that they are covered. I do release them from the amount of such claims exceeding the amount of such insurance. CONSENT TO RESCUE, MEDICAL TREATMENT AND PAYMENT THEREOF I also understand that among the risks inherent in these activities is that I may require rescue or medical treatment. I hereby agree that I consent to any rescue, hospital care, or medical or surgical diagnosis or treatment to be rendered to me for any illness or injury that might arise from my participation in CKF activities. I understand and agree that I am solely responsible for all charges for such medical services and rescue operations. I will pay those and reimburse CKF or any person who has expended money for such medical services or rescue operations. Nothing herein shall be deemed to obligate Releasees to provide medical or rescue services. I have carefully read this Agreement and understand its contents. I freely and voluntarily assume all the risks and hazards arising from any of CKF's activities in which I participate as a paddler, spectator, camper, guest or in any other way. This Agreement shall be binding on myself, my family, my heirs, assigns, executors and administrators. If any clause in this Agreement is found to be invalid, the remainder of the Agreement will remain in force. If any legal action be instituted to enforce any provision hereof, the prevailing party shall be entitled to recover reasonable attorney's fees. My participation in any CKF event, whether or not I sign this form, is evidence that I agree to the terms and conditions of this Agreement. Please PRINT CLEARLY, then Sign ARE YOU A MEMBER OF CKF? [ ] YES [ ] NO Event: _____________________________________________________ Event date: __________________________________________ Name: _____________________________________________________ Address: ___________________________________________ Signature: _________________________________________________ Date signed: ____/_____/____ Phone: (____)______________ Minor's under the age of 18 must have a Minor's name: ______________________________ age: _____ Guardian complete this form form and sign for them. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. 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John Kirk-Anderson <jka_at_netaccess.co.nz> wrote: >While we haven't - yet - stumbled down the crazy path of litigation, >the walk has begun. This asinine and destructive American plague has already infected our neighbours to the north. I'm sorry to hear the symptoms have been spotted in your fair country. >Last week a Coroner's Inquest into the death of a skier from California heard calls from his family for someone to be held responsible. He was skiing alone on a groomed field, and no-one saw what happened, but his body was recovered from a small creek. The family asked that "all" hazards be identified and marked. I hope the Kiwi courts rule that he was personally responsible. Dammit, I liked not seeing warning signs all over New Zealand! I've never played with a helicopter while in a kayak here in the US. Know why? Omnipresent litigation! The family is asking the court to rule to change the very attitude that probably drew their beloved deceased to your country in the first place. >Hopefully, common sense will win, but for how long? For how long would you like New Zealand to remain the adventure sports capital of the world? If things get too sanitized, it will be just another California. (apologies to Californians...but not to your population of lawyers or state government!) Close your borders to us Yanks before you ever consider sanitizing your country to protect us from ourselves!!!!! (and yes, you can quote me on that!) Shawn *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 02:21 PM 7/11/2005, Shawn Baker wrote: >John Kirk-Anderson <jka_at_netaccess.co.nz> wrote: > >While we haven't - yet - stumbled down the crazy path of litigation, > >the walk has begun. > >This asinine and destructive American plague has already infected our >neighbours to the north. I'm sorry to hear the symptoms have been >spotted in your fair country. > > >Last week a Coroner's Inquest into the death of a skier from >California >heard calls from his family for someone to be held responsible. He was >skiing alone on a groomed field, and no-one saw what happened, but his >body was recovered from a small creek. The family asked that "all" >hazards be identified and marked. > >I hope the Kiwi courts rule that he was personally responsible. > >Dammit, I liked not seeing warning signs all over New Zealand! I've >never played with a helicopter while in a kayak here in the US. Know >why? Omnipresent litigation! > >The family is asking the court to rule to change the very attitude that >probably drew their beloved deceased to your country in the first >place. > > >Hopefully, common sense will win, but for how long? > >For how long would you like New Zealand to remain the adventure sports >capital of the world? If things get too sanitized, it will be just >another California. (apologies to Californians...but not to your >population of lawyers or state government!) Blame Cana^H^Hlifornia! As a fifth generation native Californian I wish people would stop assuming that all of California and the people that live there are the same. Like many other states in the U.S., it is very diverse. California is not L.A. I was equally appalled at an incident which occurred a few years ago. A student died when he fell into one of Ithaca's gorges and the parents filed a lawsuit against the university. Nevermind, that the incident occurred at 2:30AM, when the student walking back home from a Frat party (his BAC was over double the legal driving limit), and decided to climb over a 3' fence that serves as a boundry around the gorge. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
--- John Fereira <jaf30_at_cornell.edu> wrote: > I was equally appalled at an incident which occurred a few years ago. > A > student died when he fell into one of Ithaca's gorges and the parents > filed > a lawsuit against the university. Nevermind, that the incident > occurred at > 2:30AM, when the student walking back home from a Frat party (his BAC > was > over double the legal driving limit), and decided to climb over a 3' > fence > that serves as a boundry around the gorge. Blame the Fraternity!! As a third-generation Greek, I wish people would stop assuming that all Fraternities and Sororities are all the same. Like any other group of people, campus Greeks are diverse. Animal House is not representative of all campus residence houses. I'm sure the Fraternity (as did the University) dumped the alcohol down his throat. The Frat members (assisted by the college dean?) threw the student over the fence. I get your point. LA/SoCal/Hollywood culture is so prevalent and overwhelming it is easy to overlook the rest of the state. It is sad that Americans as a whole do not accept personal responsibility as a lifestyle. "It's someone else's fault"....and it's a sad plague spreading to other countries. shawn *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
"Shawn Baker" <shawnkayak_at_yahoo.com> wrote: > It is sad that Americans as a whole do not accept personal > responsibility as a lifestyle. "It's someone else's fault"....and it's > a sad plague spreading to other countries. We don't have to change their attitudes; all we have to change is the legal rules which allow searching for the deepest pocket associated with one of these tragedies and encumbering it with a frivolous suit based on a claim of gross negligence. I'll repeat what I asked before: ___how do we go about changing the aspects of the legal system which allow this?___ To wit, how can we provide the same sort of "Good Samaritan" protection to kayaking trip leaders (and similar) which we have already provided to holders of Red Cross CPR certification? If we can get that to happen, these suits will disappear (he said hopefully). (Background: many years ago, holding a CPR card meant that if you attempted CPR on a person who showed the symptoms of a heart attack (or who was unconscious, had no pulse, and was not breathing), and failed to perform CPR flawlessly, you were exposed to serious liability. Subsequently, laws were passed which allowed CPR providers protection from malicious suits. Forget the exact language, but I believe a litigant now has to establish egregious negligence or somesuch for the suit to proceed, and if the CPR-doer has shown good faith efforts, the suit will be thrown out.) -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
>> John Kirk-Anderson <jka_at_netaccess.co.nz> wrote: >> >>> Last week a Coroner's Inquest into the death of a skier from >> California >> heard calls ... on 12/7/05 06:39, John Fereira at jaf30_at_cornell.edu wrote: > Blame Cana^H^Hlifornia! As a fifth generation native Californian I wish > people would stop assuming that all of California and the people that live > there are the same. ... Hi John, This was in no way an inditement of California, Californian's, or indeed any group of people. Meeting any individuals of any "group" shows the stupidity of stereotyping. During one three-month tour of the US, the only person I met who I classified as an A--hole was an expat Kiwi! Also, the idea that: "Shawn Baker" <shawnkayak_at_yahoo.com> wrote: ...It is sad that Americans as a whole do not accept personal responsibility as a lifestyle. "It's someone else's fault"....and it's a sad plague spreading to other countries... is not exclusive to Americans, my industry (the media) lives for that response, and perpetuates it. We are always amazed when someone basically says, "S--t happens". The threat of litigation can have benefits, as explained to me by one man (OK, he WAS from the US) whose partner, a Kiwi, was injured in a para-gliding accident here. The operator involved had a very bad reputation for accidents, but got away with it for far too long, as the para-gliding industry was self regulated, and he was too close to the organisation. The (former US policeman) started an investigation of his own, and with media coverage (we do some things right) the operator was closed down. That was little comfort for those who had life-long injuries from his actions. As the former-cop said to me, this situation would not have gone on for so long in the States, as after he was sued for the first spinal injury his insurance would have gone up, and after the second he would have no insurance, and hence would have gone out of business. This was another case of where the typical Kiwi response, "She'll be right, Mate", was dangerous. There can, arguably, be other benefits from the spot-light of investigation. A cyclist competing in a road-race (Le Race) was killed when she hit an oncoming car while overtaking a bunch on a road she (presumably) believed was closed. In the following criminal investigation, it became apparent that there was confusion among competitors over which parts of the course were closed, and which were open to traffic. The event organiser (Astrid Anderson) was charged with Criminal Nuisance (if I recall correctly) and was convicted. The conviction was eventually overturned on appeal, but not before every sporting event in NZ looked very closely at how it operated. A new industry in traffic management sprang up, and the sale of road-cones and reflective jackets boomed. Events which typically relied on volunteers started to consider how skilled, equipped, and qualified they were. Many smaller events have stopped, due to increased costs. Despite this, potentially dangerous things slip through. I was in one multisport event recently when I saw a marshal, sitting alone on a very exposed ridge, shivering with cold. Later I found out she had no shelter or communications, her first-aid kit was next to useless, and she had little first aid skills. We competitors were far better equipped. Rather than worry too much about litigation-avoidance (or responsibility avoidance), we should instead use this energy to ensure we practise, not just preach, best practice. Still, in this forum I guess we are preaching to the choir! Cheers JKA *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> "Shawn Baker" <shawnkayak_at_yahoo.com> wrote: > ...It is sad that Americans as a whole do not accept personal responsibility > as a lifestyle. "It's someone else's fault"....and it's a sad plague > spreading to other countries... Shawn your'e right. Right there is the crux of the issue. It all started not to long ago. If you remember back in the 60s there was a man who was later to be known as the "father" of tort law. A fellow by the name of Ralph, "unsafe at any speed" Nader. He set the example to be followed by so many. He figured out that he could exploit that feature of the American psyche to his financial and political advantage. He went after GM on account they had the biggest pockets around at the time. Tried to extort GM claiming the Corvair flipped over unusually easily. In the end it was bogus and his own studies revealed it was no les safe than any other car on the road, in fact in comparison to any other vehicle on the road at the time a smaller number of them ever flipped over. Ol Ralph dismissed the report he commissioned himself as bogus and kept at it and lined his pockets in the process. And it has been down hill ever since. John Kirk Anderson wrote: > Rather than worry too much about litigation-avoidance (or responsibility > avoidance), we should instead use this energy to ensure we practise, not > just preach, best practice. yes but you see my friend there is this little thing called greed. now you cant let little issues like moraliy and responsability get in the way of making some easy money, why well you see I was iiiiiinnnjured, but nooo it wasn't my own dumb fault, I can turn this picture to my advantage and do what al Ralph showed us how to do. Like a few years back in the early 80s when a fellow took an old Piper J3 cub airplane built in 1932 and installed a tripod w/ a video camera in the front seat and went to tow a glider up, only he did not see the van that the owner of the land had parked on the runway cause the airport management had not paid up their rent for a while. Well you can guess what happened. The now dead oh so creative pilots wife successfully sewed and won the largest single award against any corporation to date because Piper aircraft did not think back in 1932 to install a full 4 point seat harness to keep ol Rube Goldberg from mortally impaling himself on the very camera tripod he himself had staled in the front seat. And Piper aircraft went bankrupt. time to go paddling. Michael *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Lobby your legislature for caps on recoveries in these types of cases. ----- Original Message ----- > > ___how do we go about changing the aspects of the legal system which allow > this?___ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Likewise, stop ASSuming that all lawyers are alike. Some of us are very good at what we do and most of us don't do liability cases at all. Furthermore, personal injury lawyers would be completely unemployed if greedy people who think they've won the lottery due to their own stupidity would accept responsiblity before suing others. ----- Original Message ----- > >another California. (apologies to Californians...but not to your > >population of lawyers or state government!) > > Blame Cana^H^Hlifornia! As a fifth generation native Californian I wish > people would stop assuming that all of California and the people that live > there are the same. Like many other states in the U.S., it is very > diverse. California is not L.A. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Stupid people don't just beat down the narrow path to the personal injury lawyers' doors. Personal injury lawyers hang out awfully big shingles. What percentage do they make?...I thought so. I'm quite certain that personal injury lawyers tell their clients to get over it and accept responsibility when they first walk through the door. I would lead club trips if it weren't for litigious people or personal injury lawyers. Shawn --- Susan <ladyjustice_at_erols.com> wrote: > Furthermore, > personal injury lawyers would be completely unemployed if greedy > people who > think they've won the lottery due to their own stupidity would accept > responsiblity before suing others. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 01:56 PM 7/12/2005, Shawn Baker wrote: >I would lead club trips if it weren't for litigious people or personal >injury lawyers. You're not the first experienced, skilled paddler that has written here that they won't lead club trips. If local clubs or individuals won't lead trips where does the inexperienced paddler go to paddle on a guided trip? One alternative is that they just go out on their own or an equally inexperienced buddy. We read about what can happen on these trips all the time. For example, this story was posted a couple of months ago: http://www.nps.gov/chis/press053105.htm The other alternative is that inexperienced (or experienced) paddlers will sign up with an outfitter for an advertised guided tour. While there are quite a few reputable shops that offer guided tours I know that there are also many that have "guides" whose primary qualifications are that they live in the area, have spent *some* time in a kayak, and are willing to work at near minimum wage. I went on a guided tour a few years ago with a half dozen friends, none of which had ever been in a kayak before, and one of the "guides" was paddling a 12' rec boat without a spray skirt (which allowed him to put his feet on the foredeck). One of my friends capsized, and even though both of the guides were closer to him than I neither headed toward him right away. I ended up do an assisted rescue, and he was fine (though he lost his prescription glasses and couldn't drive without them). In any case, as far as I can tell, the liabilities that a paddling shop has that offers guided tours aren't any different from what an organized club might have, and they have more to lose (their business and livelihood). I would imagine that the waiver one might sign to go on guided tour offered from a paddling shop is worth about the same as one signed for a club sponsored trip. If clubs and individuals refuse to lead trips or provide training we are essentially asking paddling shops to shoulder the liability burden. I know that at least in the case of a friend of mine, he's not getting rich running a paddling shop that offers guided tours, lessons, rentals, boats, and gear. It would probably take one lawsuit to put him out of business. If club and individuals are afraid of litigious people and personal injury lawyers, small shop owners are too, and many just might decide that all the potential trouble just isn't worth it, especially when competition in the form for big box chain stores are coming in to the area and selling boats and gear, and close up shop. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Although not a fan of lawyers or litigation, I think it is a cheap excuse to blame the lawyers for your lack of interest in leading trips. Personally, I am not big on leading trips because I think it is a pain. I do worry about the safety of people under my guidance, and I would much rather not have that responsibility. It amounts to basic laziness and the selfish desire to enjoy myself without worrying about others. I would like to pawn off my selfishness on the backs of personal injury lawyers, but it isn't their fault. If you really want to lead club trips, do it. Your risk of being sued is about the same as you drowning while paddling alone. Sure, shit happens, and in their grief survivors may lash out, but don't blame someone else if you really just don't want to be bothered. It is your decision and your responsibility. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Nick Schade said: If you really want to lead club trips, do it. Your risk of being sued is about the same as you drowning while paddling alone. Sure, shit happens, and in their grief survivors may lash out, but don't blame someone else if you really just don't want to be bothered. It is your decision and your responsibility. I second that. The whitewater club I belong to had a president about twenty years ago who often led trips for club members. One place she took them was the Gauley in West Virginia, a significant whitewater challenge. The Prez couldn't handle herself in Class III water, let alone rescue anyone in Class IV. She once confided to me that she "loves running blind drops." She was a fool. No one died, no one got seriously injured, no one got sued. But a whole lot of people quit the sport, after being scared out of their wits. I've been on commercial sea kayak expeditions where I was by far a better paddler than any of the guides. So, who do you trust? The answer, I think, is no one that you haven't researched. I am happy to lead trips and do it often. I volunteer with a youth counseling service to lead kayak trips. We have gone to Glacier Bay, Alaska, to Georgian Bay, Ontario, to Lake Powell. We go to Maine every summer. With teens who are mostly court committed to the trip. Lots of risk, but lots of reward. You get insurance, you get training, you practice, you plan and then you decide for yourself how far to go with risk. I would guess that most of the people who would never lead a trip learned how to paddle from someone who was willing to take the risk. So leave it to those of us who are comfortable with it. But, I think, blaming lawyers is really misguided. Lawyers are tradesmen (and women) who are hired to do a job at the request of someone. There might be a few ambulance chasers out there, but I've never run into a kayak chaser. Jim Tibensky *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
>You're not the first experienced, skilled paddler that has written here that they won't lead club trips. >If local clubs or individuals won't lead trips where does the inexperienced paddler go to paddle on a guided trip? >The other alternative is that inexperienced (or experienced) paddlers will sign up with an outfitter for an advertised guided tour. While there are quite a few reputable shops that offer guided tours I know that there are also many that have "guides" whose primary qualifications are that they live in the area, have spent *some* time in a kayak, and are willing to work at near minimum wage. Finding reputable instruction requires some minimal research. I work for a shop that I can assure you offers what I consider to be exceptionally competent instructors and guides. If they weren't - I wouldn't work for them. We relentlessly work on training our instructors and guides, and I can assure you that they are all top notch. I believe the people I work with are in it more for the love of the sport then the money - I know that's why I do it. On the other hand, my experiences with the local kayaking clubs have been very disappointing, to say the least. It seems that several of the "leaders" were more interested in trying to impress the novice paddlers with their machismo and kayak tricks then they were in leading an actual organized and "safe" trip. No wonder they are so concerned about the liability of it. They all talk a big game - but talk is cheap. I have got to believe that if someone really wants to learn how to do things correctly in this sport then they will be MUCH better off spending the money to get professional instruction from people who know what they are doing and have learned how to teach it. Although I'm sure the instruction you get at a club event is worth everything you've paid for it. Scott So.Cal. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Sounds like a troll Scott, I'll bite. No question there are many outfitters who employ competent, motivated, instructors, some of them are world class paddlers and I'm proud to call several of them friends. Equally sure there are some who have "guides" with questionable competency. The one thing all outfitters have in common is that instruction is not cheap. I'll grant you not all kayak clubs are equal, even in the best, some "leaders" are better than others. In the club I know best though most, if not all, of the instructors teaching classes and clinics are ACA certified instructors or BCU certified coaches, many are both. Some are also working or have worked as Pro's. You do not have to be a best-of-the-best paddler technically to teach a class to beginners, you do have to know how to teach. The ACA, BCU, and others train and certify teachers. While club instructors may not be world class paddlers, they are teaching within a club out of love of the sport and to give, especially to beginners, the fundamentals of safe paddling at a price all can afford. If your local clubs are so needy, perhaps you and your peers could consider volunteering your time. Certainly it's a challenge and frustrating, but it is a way to give back to the sport to those who couldn't afford it otherwise. Best, Rob. Scott wrote: Finding reputable instruction requires some minimal research. I work for a shop that I can assure you offers what I consider to be exceptionally competent instructors and guides. If they weren't - I wouldn't work for them. We relentlessly work on training our instructors and guides, and I can assure you that they are all top notch. I believe the people I work with are in it more for the love of the sport then the money - I know that's why I do it. On the other hand, my experiences with the local kayaking clubs have been very disappointing, to say the least. It seems that several of the "leaders" were more interested in trying to impress the novice paddlers with their machismo and kayak tricks then they were in leading an actual organized and "safe" trip. No wonder they are so concerned about the liability of it. They all talk a big game - but talk is cheap. I have got to believe that if someone really wants to learn how to do things correctly in this sport then they will be MUCH better off spending the money to get professional instruction from people who know what they are doing and have learned how to teach it. Although I'm sure the instruction you get at a club event is worth everything you've paid for it. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 7/13/2005 8:27:15 AM Pacific Standard Time, jimtibensky_at_fastmail.fm writes: Nick Schade said:" If you really want to lead club trips, do it. Your risk of being sued is about the same as you drowning while paddling alone. Sure, shit happens, and in their grief survivors may lash out, but don't blame someone else if you really just don't want to be bothered. It is your decision and your responsibility." Then Jim said:"You get insurance, you get training, you practice, you plan and then you decide for yourself how far to go with risk. I would guess that most of the people who would never lead a trip learned how to paddle from someone who was willing to take the risk. So leave it to those of us who are comfortable with it. But, I think, blaming lawyers is really misguided. Lawyers are tradesmen (and women) who are hired to do a job at the request of someone. There might be a few ambulance chasers out there, but I've never run into a kayak chaser." Leading trips is a very informative process. I have learned a lot of my tendencies and those of my friends and fellow paddlers. It is a pain in the butt sometimes from an organizational perspective. I have to collect waivers; ACA day fees if they are not current members;send emails as to where to meet, no, scratch that, go here now the put in has changed; organize the shuttle; send in the waivers and fees to the club; appoint body guards for suspect paddlers; reign in the speedsters a little; hover over the NOAA forecast with worry; the list is nearly endless. The reward is a bit of organizational tuning for me and the knowledge that someone who was looking for good company in certain waters got that. As a native Californian I should be running away from responsibility at all costs, as it's apparently in our DNA to sue and be sued. I have never been in a movie, nor stood on a surfboard but all I met in the Rocky's as a seasonal wrangler at various dude ranches assumed kiddingly I must have done so. I do not for know for certain where the California stereotypes come from but do have my suspicions. Most Californians are not from there, they moved in within their lifetime. Most who move to California is to take advantage of the fact that it is one of the primary economic engines of the United States, and thus the western world. Yes, I am concerned about our litigous society. I'm also concerned about seeing to it that clubs have newer faces to lead trips to ease the burden off the veterans who have been pretty committed to the clubs over the years. I think most of us prefer our personal trips best, but the more formal ones can be pretty rewarding, too. Rob G *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I agree with Rob G More leaders die in the carpark than are sued by about a factor of 10 Seeing the joy of people being taken on paddles to areas they would otherwise never get to see is a great reward, worth the very tiny risk of being sued Ian Dewey Manager - Education and Development Australian Canoeing *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Paddlewisers, Those who have negative stereotypes for people in LA or the rest of California watch too many TV shows. Organizing club paddles isn't so bad. First, announce the paddle in a manner that almost anyone who isn't qualified won't show up. You really have to scare them with how fast the paddle and how bad the conditions are going to be. Second, have a good clause. Mine is usually: "You are welcome to share the ocean with us. Just be self-sufficient, responsible for your own safety, and willing to be left behind if you fall behind." Try to sue me with that one! Third, once the paddle starts, quickly identify paddlers who can't handle the conditions and politely send them back. They are usually thankful for it. Duane Southern California Who has never seen Bay Watch or the The OC www.rollordrown.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I've been following this discussion closely and finally think I need to chime in with some perspective. I live in Senegal and I'm an advanced beginner kayaker. In Senegal, there are no kayaking clubs and no kayaking centers/shops that provide training and/or rentals. When I first started kayaking I took commercial kayaking training and went on a few guided tours. I also joined a great paddling club, in the DC area, the Chesapeake Paddlers Association (CPA). Club members reinforced my rescue skills and taught me how to roll. And, members generously organized guided tours that were very much appreciated by us newcomers. Now that I don't have either option, boy do I miss it. So, I'm trying to create both. I started by organizing introduction to kayaking classes with help from Ousmane, the captain of Senegal's national kayaking team, who is a good teacher -- he provides the instruction, I provide the logistic and the kayaks. Do I take a risk during these classes? While luckily CPA members donated PFDs to our new "Pirates of Dakar" club so at least paddlers are now wearing PFDs, I always worry that someone will get hurt. Since I'm in Senegal its unlikely I'd be sued if something happened, but its not the lawsuit I'm stressed about -- its the personal responsibility I'd feel if someone got hurt. It is worth it? Yes -- I love kayaking and its safer and more enjoyable to have friends to kayak with. And, it feels good to introduce people to a sport I enjoy. But, a community needs a minimal number of kayaker which is where the commercial kayaking center comes in -- novices can rent kayaks, get good instruction, try a few guided trips and then hopefully buy their own kayak from the same shop -- then, the club would have some depth and vibrancy. So, with help from Peace Corps, I'm working with Ousmane so that he can start a commercially viable kayaking center in Dakar. This is all a lot of work, but again its worth it. Maybe in the U.S. we've started to take all of this for granted -- there are so many options, we forget how good we have it. Spend a few months with me in Senegal and you'll be thankful for both the commercial kayaking centers and kayaking clubs, and maybe you'll be motivated to spend the time and shoulder the stress and responsibility of leading a trip. Beth Impex Montauk *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I appreciate the time everyone took to respond to my worries. Below is the response from a club member who is retiring this month after 30+ years as a general surgeon. > > > HI......Sorry I didn't know you were worried about the 'liability > issue'....It is vexing to say the least.....It is the main reason I'm > retiring....It's there and it's real.....and I just don't feel like > worrying about it anymore......just buying insurance doesn't solve > it......it makes it more likely......being cerified in CPR doesn't > solve it....It just makes it more likely.....The less you > promise......the less you are liable for.....I like the idea of just > being a social club..... Me too. Another surgeon said that if an attorney can punch holes through a medical waiver then a club waiver would be an even easier target. Now its time for me to give it a rest and go sand my hull. Jim et al *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I was just doing some surfing for kayak accessories and noticed that GRO (Great River Outfitters) was sold by the previous owners (Stan Chladak sp?) and is now located in Rhode Island. Anyone know who bought it? *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
The Kayak Centre in Wickford, RI: http://www.kayakcentre.com/ They are the probably the biggest kayak retailer in southern New England. On Jul 11, 2005, at 1:09 PM, John Fereira wrote: > I was just doing some surfing for kayak accessories and noticed > that GRO (Great River Outfitters) was sold by the previous owners > (Stan Chladak sp?) and is now located in Rhode Island. Anyone know > who bought it? Nick Schade Guillemot Kayaks 824 Thompson St Glastonbury, CT 06033 USA Ph/Fx: (860) 659-8847 http://www.guillemot-kayaks.com/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I have built a new rudder pedal and foot-pump assembly for my Nordkapp, and I was very pleased with it until I weighed it. I'm too embarrassed to admit how obese it is, but a weight-loss program using cosmetic surgery has started. It is made from fibreglass, and I have laid it up very thick. It is easily the strongest part of my whole kayak. Now I need advice. Am I better to reduce the thickness, by cutting back with a Dremel tool, or to drill holes through it in strategic places? If I do, am I better to use fewer, large holes, or more small ones? I'm keen on the hole drilling route (I've already started), as it will be easier, but I know I will quickly reach a point of diminishing returns. At some stage I will start again and use core-mat, Carbon/Kevlar and better design, but for now I want the easiest route. Any suggestions? -- John Kirk-Anderson Banks Peninsula NEW ZEALAND *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On 4 Jul 2005 at 22:31, John Kirk-Anderson wrote: > Am I better to reduce the thickness, by cutting back with a Dremel > tool, or to drill holes through it in strategic places? If I do, am I > better to use fewer, large holes, or more small ones? I'd reserve comment until I saw what the thing looked like. In general, drilling holes is not a very effective way to reduce weight. The strength reduction is often greater than the weight reduction. One hole in the wrong place can do a lot of strength reduction. Can you post a couple of photos on a web site? Mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On 30 Jun 2005 at 10:45, Jim Farrelly wrote: > I asked our club to use this incident as a wake up call. They > did the usual and looked bored with a few snickers thrown in. The > few people that engaged in the discussion love the status quo. It > was draining. Welcome to the typical club. > There seems to be a lot of exposure when trying to do > the right thing and help train your club. It doesnt seem worth it. This happens in every club, kayaking or otherwise. A small minority of folks do all the work, have all the talent and struggle to make it seem worthwhile. The majority find things to complain about, put in a minimal effort and then quit. Our club went through this a couple of times and lost a few key members when insurance issues blew up - we lost insurance for a while and no one was willing to risk their own personal assets if someone in the club sued us. > Does your club have insurance? We are looking into ACA, PAC and > private insurance. The paperwork requirements for the ACA insurance > are steep. I don't know of the ACA, but our club went with a similar policy here in Canada - we are under a large paddling organization's insurance contract with a large insurer (in this case, ORCA - the Ontario Recreational Canoe Association). The paperwork is annoying (I just filled out even more forms yesterday), but it's easy to get and is specific to the sort of things kayakers do. It is also a lot cheaper than trying to forge a unique insurance policy with an insurer. Something tells me the ACA insurance would be similar. Mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 10:45 AM -0400 6/30/05, Jim Farrelly wrote: >[SNIP] > Does your club have insurance? We are looking into ACA, PAC and >private insurance. The paperwork requirements for the ACA insurance are steep. Our club recently left Subaru, er, I mean the ACA due to the increased cost of doing any sort of event with them. If I recall correctly, you now must register any club event with them and pay a $25 dollar fee. So no more impromptu events. We still insure our yearly ACA classes through them but our members are no longer automatically in the ACA. So we lose our Paddler subscription (such a great loss that) and the club get tp spend the saved money on a new trailer. Liability insurance has been a complete mess in the this country (the US) for awhile now. Some very high profile cases like the ice climbing death in Ouray have made it prohibitive to get good liability insurance. A local group who has sponsored a yearly rowing and paddling marathon has cancelled this years race due to the increased cost of insurance. Maybe some of the more legally inclined could provide details and those of you in other countries could site examples of how insurance works in your respective countries. For example, when I lived in the Netherlands in order to climb with one of the national clubs (they love their clubs in Holland), you had to get your personal "climbing insurance" policy. Seems heavy-handed except that the policy was easy to get and cost next to nothing. -Patrick *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Actually, the ACA insurance, though it cost more than it used too, is still a good deal, IMO. The cost for a sanctioned event is $20 if done ahead of time. If you don't sanction prior to 2 weeks before the event it is an additional $25. So, if you group members are all insured and you want to have an insured, sanctioned event then the cost is about 50 bucks. Perhaps not worth it if you and 5 buddies are going for a paddle. On the other hand, if there are 10 of you, friends of friends, then perhaps it is a better idea. It costs an additional $10 if they are not ACA members. FWIW, Steve Bailey -----Original Message----- From: owner-paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net [mailto:owner-paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net]On Behalf Of Patrick Maun Sent: Thursday, June 30, 2005 12:35 PM To: Paddlewise Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Club Insurance, Liability, and Overcoming Inertia At 10:45 AM -0400 6/30/05, Jim Farrelly wrote: >[SNIP] > Does your club have insurance? We are looking into ACA, PAC and >private insurance. The paperwork requirements for the ACA insurance are steep. Our club recently left Subaru, er, I mean the ACA due to the increased cost of doing any sort of event with them. If I recall correctly, you now must register any club event with them and pay a $25 dollar fee. So no more impromptu events. We still insure our yearly ACA classes through them but our members are no longer automatically in the ACA. So we lose our Paddler subscription (such a great loss that) and the club get tp spend the saved money on a new trailer. Liability insurance has been a complete mess in the this country (the US) for awhile now. Some very high profile cases like the ice climbing death in Ouray have made it prohibitive to get good liability insurance. A local group who has sponsored a yearly rowing and paddling marathon has cancelled this years race due to the increased cost of insurance. Maybe some of the more legally inclined could provide details and those of you in other countries could site examples of how insurance works in your respective countries. For example, when I lived in the Netherlands in order to climb with one of the national clubs (they love their clubs in Holland), you had to get your personal "climbing insurance" policy. Seems heavy-handed except that the policy was easy to get and cost next to nothing. -Patrick >From kgo_at_imaginelan.com Thu Jun 30 14:45:37 2005 -0400 Status: R X-Status: X-Keywords: Return-Path: <owner-paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net> Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by pip.winboot.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id j5UIjbO04728 for <kgo_at_localhost>; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 14:45:37 -0400 Received: from mail.comcast.net [204.127.202.10] by localhost with POP3 (fetchmail-5.7.4) for kgo_at_localhost (single-drop); Thu, 30 Jun 2005 14:45:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cyclone.muddypuppies.com ([64.105.135.5]) by rwcrmxc17.comcast.net (rwcrmxc17) with ESMTP id <20050630184233r1700l4e9je>; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 18:42:33 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [64.105.135.5] Received: from cyclone.muddypuppies.com (IDENT:y5E0oCR6dV9VBTBOrsnhtaTIMdZBzdys_at_cyclone.muddypuppies.com [127.0.0.1]) by cyclone.muddypuppies.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j5UIgW2D019657 Thu, 30 Jun 2005 11:42:32 -0700 Received: (from majordom_at_localhost) by cyclone.muddypuppies.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j5UIgWWO019656; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 11:42:32 -0700 Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 11:42:32 -0700 Message-Id: <200506301842.j5UIgWWO019656_at_cyclone.muddypuppies.com> To: paddlewise-approval_at_paddlewise.net From: owner-paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net Subject: BOUNCE paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net: Newbie subscriber submission from ["Kahng, Lucius" <luc_Kahng_at_nema.org>], approvals=0 taboo body match "/To:/i" at line 10 taboo body match "/Sent:/i" at line 11 taboo body match "/To:/i" at line 12 taboo body match "/copyright/i" at line 88 >From owner-paddlewise Thu Jun 30 11:42:20 2005 Received: from relay2.nema.org (relay2.nema.org [209.183.213.180]) by cyclone.muddypuppies.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j5UIgJ2D019647 Thu, 30 Jun 2005 11:42:19 -0700 Received: from NEWTON.Nema.org (newton.nema.org [209.183.213.182]) by relay2.nema.org (Build 103 8.9.3p2/NT-8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA24502 for <PaddleWise_at_paddlewise.net>; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 14:44:05 -0700 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: [Paddlewise] Find a Kayak Club? Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 14:41:50 -0400 Message-ID: <748BEA8435AD58459D5721DB22118088014FF0A6_at_newton.nema.org> Thread-Topic: [Paddlewise] Find a Kayak Club? Thread-Index: AcV9nh/SOMCQzWBDTiS8RiJ9de6bLQABPAng From: "Kahng, Lucius" <luc_Kahng_at_nema.org> To: "Paddlewise" <PaddleWise_at_paddlewise.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by cyclone.muddypuppies.com id j5UIgK2D019649 The recent discussions on kayak clubs has made me wonder if there's one in the Washington DC area? Or is there a site listing kayak clubs? Thanks! Lucius Kahng, systems administrator (703)841-3206 W - (571)331-7634 M -----Original Message----- From: owner-paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net [mailto:owner-paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net] On Behalf Of Rob Robinson Sent: Thursday, June 30, 2005 1:46 PM To: Jim Farrelly; Paddlewise Subject: RE: [Paddlewise] Club Insurance, Liability, and Overcoming Inertia I understand what you're feeling. I retired from a large aerospace company that had a paddling club for employees/retirees. Some of the members were great to me when I first got into the sport. Eventually I gained enough skill to become a certified instructor, and wanting to give back to the sport helped train beginners and led many trips for the club. We used a company approved waiver form for club activities, and were told "we had insurance". At some point a friend advised me that my largest exposure was not in losing a liability lawsuit, but in the cost of having to personally retain a lawyer to defend myself regardless of a suits outcome. I asked the company if they would provide an attorney to defend me should a suit occur but they refused to answer this question. I stopped participating in activities with this club. Next I joined Washington Kayak Club, a large private club that provides many hosted trips, pool sessions during the winter, and classes and clinics during the paddling season. I became a member of this clubs board. I discovered we had commercial insurance for our pool sessions as it was required by the various municipal authorities, but we didn't have any liability coverage for classes, trips, or clinics. I volunteered to survey available insurance and after the board voted to become an ACA PAC member volunteered to become the Insurance Chair and act as the go-between to satisfy ACA's reporting requirements and the clubs coverage needs. We rocked along like this for several years, but last year as part of a general liability insurance shake-up ACA lost their insurance carrier. The ACA paperwork reporting requirement that existed before has become even more restrictive. My club decided to remain a PAC member for now but, the decision is not unanimously popular:) I applaud your attempt to get your club members involved in paddling safety, from May through September myself and another instructor host a weekly 2-hour lake safety session for our club. We've been doing this for quite a few years now. Even though WKC is very involved in paddler training not all members are highly skilled or motivated to become so. Our safety sessions are not heavily attended but some of the beginners of a few years ago are now accomplished paddlers, even instructors, and that's very gratifying. It IS a way to give back to the sport we love. I worked as a pro for a short while and know how expensive private lessons are. It's even more expensive for one-on-one instruction. I don't have any idea how beginners could afford to get the level of training that clubs like mine can provide. All that said, the day my club stops providing liability coverage is the day I stop participaing in club events. Jim said: The almost heart attack at the safety clinic I hosted has been churning in my mind. <snip> *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I understand what you're feeling. I retired from a large aerospace company that had a paddling club for employees/retirees. Some of the members were great to me when I first got into the sport. Eventually I gained enough skill to become a certified instructor, and wanting to give back to the sport helped train beginners and led many trips for the club. We used a company approved waiver form for club activities, and were told "we had insurance". At some point a friend advised me that my largest exposure was not in losing a liability lawsuit, but in the cost of having to personally retain a lawyer to defend myself regardless of a suits outcome. I asked the company if they would provide an attorney to defend me should a suit occur but they refused to answer this question. I stopped participating in activities with this club. Next I joined Washington Kayak Club, a large private club that provides many hosted trips, pool sessions during the winter, and classes and clinics during the paddling season. I became a member of this clubs board. I discovered we had commercial insurance for our pool sessions as it was required by the various municipal authorities, but we didn't have any liability coverage for classes, trips, or clinics. I volunteered to survey available insurance and after the board voted to become an ACA PAC member volunteered to become the Insurance Chair and act as the go-between to satisfy ACA's reporting requirements and the clubs coverage needs. We rocked along like this for several years, but last year as part of a general liability insurance shake-up ACA lost their insurance carrier. The ACA paperwork reporting requirement that existed before has become even more restrictive. My club decided to remain a PAC member for now but, the decision is not unanimously popular:) I applaud your attempt to get your club members involved in paddling safety, from May through September myself and another instructor host a weekly 2-hour lake safety session for our club. We've been doing this for quite a few years now. Even though WKC is very involved in paddler training not all members are highly skilled or motivated to become so. Our safety sessions are not heavily attended but some of the beginners of a few years ago are now accomplished paddlers, even instructors, and that's very gratifying. It IS a way to give back to the sport we love. I worked as a pro for a short while and know how expensive private lessons are. It's even more expensive for one-on-one instruction. I don't have any idea how beginners could afford to get the level of training that clubs like mine can provide. All that said, the day my club stops providing liability coverage is the day I stop participaing in club events. Jim said: The almost heart attack at the safety clinic I hosted has been churning in my mind. <snip> *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Hi all, Was thinking about Jim Farrelly's plight re: club insurance and training sessions. My train of thought (I think the engineer was asleep in the caboose) morphed into asking myself why are there paddling clubs, or any activity related clubs in the first place. One of my other activities is rock climbing, and there's a group of friends who act like a club in many ways but are not a formal club. Most climbing requires a partner on the other end of your rope, so you're always looking for at least one other someone to go with you. We've taken to sending e-mails to everyone we climb with announcing our desire to go "here" and do "this" at "this time." Sometimes nobody can go, sometimes six or eight people go. Sometimes we have dinners or birthday parties where we say a lot of climbing words. People come and go from the "circle of friends" as they enter and leave the sport or the geographic area. How is that different from a club? Why should/shouldn't we be formal club? Is there some "club veil" that provides legal protection the members? Does having a formal club attract legal lightning? Why do people form clubs anyway? Why not just go paddling with the same people over and over? Paddling clubs, climbing clubs, scuba clubs. All would seem to have significant skill issues. There must be reasons people formalize their membership. Is it driven internally or externally? Does Doug Lloyd have a club of one up in Vancouver? Is paddlewise a "club"? What are your thoughts? Fair winds and calm seas, Carey *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
<cjp129_at_earthlink.net> wrote: > Is there some "club veil" that provides legal protection the members? Does > having a formal club attract legal lightning? Why do people form clubs > anyway? Why not just go paddling with the same people over and over? You're singing my tune ... except that if you are in an out of the way place (such as where I live), an association of paddlepartners helps to find companions for trips. There is, of course, solo paddling, which is what some 70% of my paddling days involve. After learning the skills to handle the sorts of water he/she wants to paddle, a sea kayaker needs others to improve, I think. A club helps there ... but can hinder if a paddler finds him/herself continually leading a band of novices or folks who depend on a club structure for a cocoon of apparent security. Clubs help during times of trouble with access to the water, such as the tempests in the Oregon legislature this past session ... much as The Access Fund assists clubby- and nonclubby-climbers across the nation. And, if there is a visible structure, with apparently a pocket to plunder, a suit is inevitable in our culture of litigation. So clubs get nailed, while if someone dies on an informal non-club paddletrip, there is no clear assignment of liability because no one took on the mantle of authority. I know for me, the weight of responsibility for others in the days when I ran X-C clinics, X-C overnighters, and guided climbs in the Cascades, destroyed the joy of being in the mountains. Those who bear that weight well I envy and respect ... but that's not for me. That they are more exposed to litigation for their benign labors is a monstrous irony. We need to fix that. -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 7/6/2005 6:39:20 AM Pacific Standard Time, cjp129_at_earthlink.net writes: My train of thought (I think the engineer was asleep in the caboose) morphed into asking myself why are there paddling clubs, or any activity related clubs in the first place. In the old days, when we were wearing skins and other natural fibers, clubs were a form of insurance against loss of territory, cooperative hunting, language development, community planning, etc. In the age of synthetic fibers, clubs have evolved into a powerful social tool. Whether you chase a ball across a field of green, across nets strung over fields of red, clubs still provide a form of protection against loss of territory (standing in club); Cooperative hunting strategies (i.e. single and looking, but you must have a roll or I won't date you); Language development, (feathered versus non-feathered, skegs versus rudders, BCU versus ACA; Community planning, (where will we camp tonight?). It's also what you wear that says as much about you as it does the club you belong to. If I showed up at my moms house wearing fuzzy rubber pants and a fleece vest I 'm pretty sure the next question would be whether I had a guitar in the back seat of my car I can bring out and play. Social standing loss, immeasurable. But put me on a beach with my friends, the next question would be why the Chillcheaters, instead of Rapidstyle? Quickly followed by, How long can you swim in those before you die of hypothermia? Answer, I don't swim. Social standing, improved. Take the ultimate uniform of non-conformity: The biker outfit. It is a blend of the old school animal skin philosophy and modern corporate McDonald's like philosophy of absolute conformity to the goals of the bikers club. The bike, must be a Harley. The jacket, of course, must be black. All metallic surfaces must be chrome, including those teeth having had work in the past. Penalty for not singing the Steepenwolf anthem at 138am from McGilley's Tavern on Route 31, you must buy the last round-for everyone. Never ask a biker if he wants to supersize that. It's worse for kayakers, or almost. You forgot your PFD? No can paddle! What part of, bring a helmet, did you not understand? No, a fleece beanie stuffed with socks and gloves doesn't count. Where is your PFD knife? You must have a PFD knife visible at all times, there are board surfers on this beach with shaved heads and they are looking to expand their territory. Language development in kayaking really takes some skill to adapt to. When you pit boat builders with off-the-rack kayakers, heads start to spin. Casually listening to a conversation of one builder to another, I envisioned a scarf joint as some form of insulation wrapped about a board, to keep it from getting cold, I guess. So that's how they get those interesting patterns into the wood. There now is a use for Aunt Carmen's annual weavings other than the Good Will. Things really take a turn towards the interesting when whitewater boaters out of runnable freshwater show up at the same beach as the guys paddling with slightly modified 2x4's. This is the ultimate juxtaposition of the do it yourself people and the this year's new boat from Riot folks. The conversations, start in gasps, when a thick rubber, almost sleeping bag like garment is rolled down over the top of the head. It carves into the jaw line and bulges the eyes like a cod hauled up from 300 feet real fast. Then the arms slide through the sleeves and the garment drops down to the knees. Heads wobble over to the side inspecting the strange thing. It's a Tuilik, exclaims the bearer. Uh huh, I see, looks nice and waterproof. What's that there, is that a paddle or a volleyball net support? Got it at Home Depot! Home Depot sells paddles? No, the board, I had to carve it. Oh, ya it does look kind of hand made. Does it work? Looks great for poling off the bottom to get out to the break. Wanna try it? No, I got a pro deal and I'm only allowed to paddle with these carbon fiber, bent shaft paddles with injected foam cores. They're all the rage these days. Uh, Huh... As usual there is only one woman on the beach with a paddle in her hand. When her husband turns around all the single guys (3/4th of the paddlers), walk over to chat her up. She's got an offside roll, too! One says to the other. Thank God for fuzzy rubber, the other guy remarks. After a day of surfing the breaks an old fishing net is found and strung up between a pair of 2x4 paddles. A paddlefloat is used for a ball. The 2x4 paddlers seeming immunity from failing rolls earned them the respect of the foam-injected-carbon-bent-shaft-paddles-at-a-great-discount-because-of-their-club-so cial standing paddlers. Besides, there were a hell of a lot of board surfers down the beach looking to expand their territory and a couple of them got run over today. Far into the night over a mug of wine-like liquid from the cardboard vine, they bandied about the merits of rudders and neoprene, drysuits, the stickiest hole and the biggest wave ever surfed. Wolf howls rose from the distant camp of surfers dancing in crcles. They were clearly agitated. Hey guys, what do you think about starting a club? *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
This is a hard issue for which there is no easy answer. Our local club (Connyak.org) has a periodic thrashing of the issue. My current thinking has concentrated more on the safety aspect than the liability. I.e. More: what can we do to keep people safe; Less: how do we avoid being sued. It would seem that if you put in a good faith effort to keep people safe, you have a pretty good chance of avoiding a suit and if you are sued, your chances of winning are improved. If your concentration is to avoid being sued, I'm not sure you are really thinking about what will keep other people safe, instead you are concentrating on your own liability. It is good to raise the issue with your club and get people to think about it. Finding a good solution is hard. Nick On Jun 30, 2005, at 10:45 AM, Jim Farrelly wrote: > The almost heart attack at the safety clinic I hosted has been > churning > in my mind. We had our club meeting Tues and we got into it about > liability, insurance, and safety for an hour and a half. Very into > it. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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