I snipped this from page 29 of the latest Wavelength mag. It is from the article To Roll Or Not To Roll by Dan Lewis. I caught myself wrinkling my brow when I first read it. But if I apply the author's standard to most of the sea kayak rollers I know it seems to fit. Most of my buddies can roll well enough in a non pressure situation. But when the accidental capsize occurs its punchout time for many of them. Jim et al "In terms of a self rescue, I think the roll is a fairly unrealistic response to many capsizesif youre tipping over by fluke in flatwater conditions, you probably arent gripping the kayak tightly enough with your knees to stay in and roll back up. If youre tipping over because youre paddling in wind and waves beyond your abilities, you are quite likely to be too freaked out to stay in the boat and roll, and even if you do, youre right back in the same situation. If you are capsizing due to a lack of judgement or understanding of ocean conditions, then you might be better off investing your time learning to understand the weather, the ocean, and how to navigate to avoid problems." *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In another part of the article Dan siad: "Learning to roll is a matter of personal choice. There are many paddlers with years of safe paddling experiences, who do not know how to roll, and are not about to begin, thank you very much. This is a valid position and needs to be respected. I suspect the vast majority of sea kayakers fall into this category. I believe there is a fork in the learning path of all kayakersbone path leads to a roll, one path does not. The important thing is to make an informed decision about which path to pursue. If youbre going to learn to roll, make sure youbre doing it for the right reason." I respect the fact that rolling is not done perfectly by everyone deemed normally to have a decent roll, but rolling is not really a huge commitment. If you remove the context of Sea from Kayaker you would find rolling a much more common skill. Yes, the tuning of that roll in dynamic conditions takes a longer time, but can you even make an informed decision without knowing a basic roll? The sneaky thing about Dan is he is really talking about judgement and you don't really have to have a combat roll if you are judicious about your paddling venue. Of course, advancing your capabilities in case you are unjudicious doesn't seem so unrealistic to me. I was unrealistic 8 times last weekend, but then again, I was surfing, a caveat he allowed himself. Cheers, Rob G In a message dated 10/5/2006 11:36:55 AM Pacific Standard Time, JFarrelly5_at_comcast.net writes: snipped this from page 29 of the latest Wavelength mag. It is from the article To Roll Or Not To Roll by Dan Lewis. I caught myself wrinkling my brow when I first read it. But if I apply the author's standard to most of the sea kayak rollers I know it seems to fit. Most of my buddies can roll well enough in a non pressure situation. But when the accidental capsize occurs its punchout time for many of them. Jim et al "In terms of a self rescue, I think the roll is a fairly unrealistic response to many capsizesif youre tipping over by fluke in flatwater conditions, you probably arent gripping the kayak tightly enough with your knees to stay in and roll back up. If youre tipping over because youre paddling in wind and waves beyond your abilities, you are quite likely to be too freaked out to stay in the boat and roll, and even if you do, youre right back in the same situation. If you are capsizing due to a lack of judgement or understanding of ocean conditions, then you might be better off investing your time learning to understand the weather, the ocean, and how to navigate to avoid problems." *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> I respect the fact that rolling is not done perfectly by everyone deemed > normally to have a decent roll, but rolling is not really a huge commitment. > If > you remove the context of Sea from Kayaker you would find rolling a much more > common skill. Yes, the tuning of that roll in dynamic conditions takes a > longer time, but can you even make an informed decision without knowing a > basic > roll? The sneaky thing about Dan is he is really talking about judgement and > you don't really have to have a combat roll if you are judicious about your > paddling venue. Of course, advancing your capabilities in case you are > unjudicious doesn't seem so unrealistic to me. I was unrealistic 8 times last > weekend, but then again, I was surfing, a caveat he allowed himself. > > Cheers, > > Rob G > > I'd like to be able to roll. Really. But my attempts to self-teach myself have been miserable failures, and the most easily available courses are both too expensive for my budget and at inconvenient times and places. Having other people who can roll attempt to give pointers hasn't worked either. Due to my geographical location, most of my paddling is on relatively sheltered waters -- lakes and rivers in Eastern Ontario. I get out on the Great Lakes once or twice a year and maybe do a trip on the St. Lawrence or the Atlantic even less frequently. I stop paddling in mid-November and don't start again until the ice is well off the water -- probably April sometime. I have practised self-rescues in all kinds of conditions. I can get back in my boat with relative ease even in two to three foot waves and a wind strong enough to have the flags snapping on the flagpoles. Do I still need a roll? I'm not sure at all. It's a serious question. If I could roll, I might be tempted to go out in conditions that I now avoid. Would that be good? Would I be too cocky about my abilities for my own good? Possibly. Am I too cautious now? Also a possibility. Hard to tell, isn't it? Having a roll, I think, would be a "good thing". Another arrow in the old quiver, so to speak. Is it a "necessary thing"? It better not be, or I have no business being out on the water. Nor the many others like me who can't roll but who can do a reasonable self-rescue, especially if there's another boat to help out. -- Darryl *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
The challenge with learning to roll is that the motions are very counter-intuitive. It took me a few classes to get it right. After the third class, I was getting really frustrated with it. Results weren't happening. I went to the 4th class, got into the boat, and rolled on the first attempt. It caught me totally by surprise. From that moment, it was a matter of repetition and working on reliability. > Due to my geographical location, most of my paddling > is on relatively > sheltered waters -- lakes and rivers in Eastern > Ontario. I get out on If you are in the Toronto area, there are two options which may turn out less expensive ways to learn then your typical rolling class. Paddle Toronto runs "pool practise nights" during the winter months. These cost about half what it would cost for their regular rolling class. If you've already got the idea how to roll, this might be an option. There are plenty of instructors on hand. Details have been posted for last year. Dates for this year have not been announced yet. http://www.paddletoronto.com/in_pool.htm Also, Great Lakes Sea Kayak Association has plans to run pool sessions this winter. Details are to be announced, but my guess is that this will be more economical then a commercial outfit. http://www.geocities.com/glska/ Derek --------------------------------------------------------------- Please limit all email attachments sent to this address to a maximum of 0.5MB. All email attachments that are larger then 0.5MB will automatically be deleted. --------------------------------------------------------------- ICQ: 262152266, AIM: GlamourpetsD, MSN: [my email address], Yahoo Messenger: glamourpets --------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Darryl wrote: > Due to my geographical location, most of my paddling is on relatively > sheltered waters -- lakes and rivers in Eastern Ontario. I know Ottawa has good rolling classes - MKC and others (Trailhead/Black Feather?) have courses and some clubs (likely WW but they certainly know some good rolls) will have pool sessions as well. Kingston likely has stuff as well, but I don't know of any specifically. If you are within an hour or so's driving of those cities, it might be worth a few nights this winter/spring. The key though is to keep practicing and pool sessions are the best way - lots of time in the off-season without cold water. I learned the Pawlatta in less than a half hour in my first course and then took another, two-night course for the screw roll and C-C. My way of testing my rolling in real conditions was to sign up for a week's WW kayaking at MKC (no swims* in class II-III and a teensy bit of IV). A few years later, I attended an advanced rolling course at the canoe and kayak festival in South Carolina (about 25 different Greenland rolls in 2.5 hours - Ray Killen instructing). I get as many pool sessions as possible every winter/spring. Ya get out of it what you put into it. Mike *I did get a few bow rescues though. If I had trouble with a roll, the instructor's kayak was bumping mine within a few seconds. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> I'd like to be able to roll. Really. > > But my attempts to self-teach myself have been miserable failures, > and the most easily available courses are both too expensive for my > budget and at inconvenient times and places. For self-taught rollers, it might help to think of a roll as an extreme brace. When I made my first Greenland paddle, there was no one in my area who knew how to teach a Greenland roll. My first attempt resulted in a wet exit. Immediately I decided to teach myself from the top down. I started practicing sweep braces and static braces -- tentatively at first, then more aggressively as I developed confidence. Eventually, I got to the point where I could submerge my head and still brace up. After that, it was a short step to a roll, merely adding an underwater setup to what I had done before. Learning this way patterns your muscles for what is for most people the most difficult part of the roll: the last ninety degrees. It also helps if a friend can stand by to give you an Eskimo rescue when you miss a roll. I did this when teaching my wife to roll, and though she missed many rolls at first, not once did she wet exit. It saves much time and energy and makes learning to roll a lot more fun and less discouraging. Chuck Holst *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Jim Farrelly wrote: > "In terms of a self rescue, I think the roll is a fairly unrealistic > response to many capsizesif youre tipping over by fluke in flatwater > conditions, you probably arent gripping the kayak tightly enough with > your knees to stay in and roll back up. In other words, if you learned a bit of rolling but not enough to do it reliably, it's not useful. If you don't learn to hold a paddle, paddling's not much of an option either. I agree with Rob - if you remove "sea", the expectation of a good roll is there. The fact that sea kayakers don't learn to roll in large number is not a reason not to learn or to downplay the value of rolling. Mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
......"In other words, if you learned a bit of rolling but not enough to do it reliably, it's not useful. If you don't learn to hold a paddle, paddling's not much of an option either. I agree with Rob - if you remove "sea", the expectation of a good roll is there." ------- Good morning or evening. I have spent several years practicing to rescue myself and trying to have a dependable roll. With so many failed roll attempts of course my rescue technique became very proficient. Then finally I had a roll that would get me out of trouble, but in real hard situations I tended to go back automatically to the traditional wet exit and self rescue. Finally I learned that having the options, wet exiting consumes much more energy and puts you in difficulties when close to rocks or turbulent waters, or cold weather. So I decided that it is always better to roll even if it takes two or three attempts. Once I made my mind I have profited from this in many occasions. I have failed a roll only every now and then, but I have been successful many other times. Now I can try what I like to do which is surfing on a short kayak, trying maneuvers and skills and so on because if I go over, I am back in almost no time. So I think that it pays back to go through the mental process of being convinced in real situations of the advantages of a roll. Mis dos centavos. Best Regards, Rafael Mexico. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I've had an Icom M88 radio (JPX7) for over a year; I have it attached to my PDF strap and have rolled with it, crashed through surf with it and rinsed it off with a hose after salt water use --- it has worked flawlessly and reliably. I've had a Garmin GPS 72 (IPX7) since June. The first one started showing condensation after one trip (no immersion, just drips from the paddle shaft) and failed after 3 days of paddling in coastal NC where I always tucked it away in the day hatch for surf entries/exits & rolling practice. After getting a new (or refurbed) unit from Garmin, the second unit failed on the first trip when it was on deck during an unexpected roll (Dismal River, NE). This time, there is water visible under the display. So, it is now going back to Garmin again (the customer support rep said that "he had never heard of this happen to one of their marine portable units, really"). Have I just gotten two lemons, or are Garmin's IPX7 gps units really not on par with Icom's JPX-7 radios? (I'm assuming that IPX7 & JPX7 are basically the same --- is this not true?) Here are the various ratings for reference: IPX0 Non-protected. IPX1 Vertically falling drops shall have no harmful effects. IPX2 Vertically falling drops shall have no harmful effects when the enclosure is tilted at any angle up to 150 on either side of the vertical. IPX3 Water sprayed at an angle up to 600 on either side of the vertical shall have no harmful effects. IPX4 Water splashed against the enclosure from any direction shall have no harmful effects. IPX5 Water projected in jets against the enclosure from any direction shall have no harmful effects. IPX6 Water projected in powerful jets against the enclosure from any direction shall have no harmful effects. IPX7 Ingress of water in quantities causing harmful effects shall be prevented when the enclosure is immersed in 1m of water for 30 minutes. If a device is IPX7, doesn't that mean that it also meets the IPX1-6 (particularly 4-6) standards? *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 10/6/2006 12:13:05 PM Pacific Standard Time, bc_at_asdi.com writes: If a device is IPX7, doesn't that mean that it also meets the IPX1-6 (particularly 4-6) standards? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I do not know as much about the JPX code contrasted with the IP code. Regarding progressive numerical standard ratings, the short answer is no. The Ingress Protection standards evolved in the International Electric Code (European based). Recently, American manufacturers from many different perspectives have been testing their products with the IP standards. Underwriters Laboratories will now also test to the standard. The table is progressive only up to a point. It is assumed that an IPX6 will also meet IPX1-5. However, it is not assumed that an IPX6 will meet the IPX7 standard or that an IPX7 will pass a IPX6 test. The IPX6 standard for us is jet directed water up to 1500 PSI, 0 degree dispersion nozzle at 5-10 foot distances rotating all over the item for a period of one hour. The IPX7 is a gentle dunk for an hour at a depth of 1 meter for half an hour. Way, way different standard. Regarding this and the recent Strobes thread, be advised that all electronica is subject to failure in the marine environment. (No, duh ; )) I have replaced my Princeton Tech strobe twice now and also have replaced batteries in it when the unit was switched on accidentally and left on til it died. If you carry electronica, test it as often as you paddle. I have headlamps and flashlights that get turned on accidentally in Pelican boxes and PFD pockets. My wife and I each have a VHF that were replaced due to failure in under one year. If you take a BCU or ACA assessment the likelyhood of an assessor asking you to turn on your strobe, headlight, flashlight or any electric stuff is quite high. Regards, Rob G *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
G'Day, Joe and Craig responded to Brian's question and reported no problems with waterproofing their GPS72's. This was encouraging but I just wanted to check if their units were in waterproof bags or cases. I've been thinking of buying one of these units but don't want to put it into a waterproof bag because of an anticipated difficulty in reading the screen in bright sunlight though the transparent plastic. All the best, PeterO *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
PeterO wrote: > Joe and Craig responded to Brian's question and reported no problems with > waterproofing their GPS72's.[snip] > I've been thinking of buying one of these units but don't want to put it > into a waterproof bag because of an anticipated difficulty in reading the > screen in bright sunlight though the transparent plastic. Ugh. You are dead right about those waterproof bags: they suck for reading a GPS. Peter, I'd guess the condensation you are seeing comes from either of two sources: 1. Moisture, initially present as water vapor, condensed from the air inside the unit when it is moved from a warmer environment (where you sealed it up) to a cooler one (the deck of your boat in the early part of the day). 2. A very tiny leak in the seal around the battery compartment, passing water in liquid form into the unit when the seal is initially immersed in cooler sea water in use. Number 1 is no big deal. Just cool the unit for a half hour out of doors the night before before closing it. When it warms up in use the next day, there should not be any condensation, because the warmer air will hold more water in vapor form, and there should not be any present in liquid form. Number 2 may not be a big deal. Check the seal gasket material, and lube it with a tiny amount of silicone grease (available at reel shops) and repeat the test, per instructions in paragraph above. Chances are the gasket was not sliding into best position without lubricant. Given that you had two fail in your hands, I think it likely it is some sort of temperature-change-related source, not flawed units. -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Dave Kruger wrote: > Number 1 is no big deal. Just cool the unit for a half hour out of > doors the night before before closing it. If you live in a perpetually warm and humid environment, you can also store the unit in a sealed bag with some silica gel. There's probably a silica gel packet in the box the unit came in. You can also buy silica gel packets in different sizes - though they can be hard to find. Commercial packets have additives that indicated by colour the degree of saturation - once saturated, heat to dry and re-use. I've found huge differences in prices from one place to another. A local shop sells Peli silica gel containers for Pelican boxes at twice the price of the identical looking item from Lee Valley Tools. Mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Hi Peter, I just put my Garmin GPS 72 on the deck with no protection at all. No problems reading it so far either... even in bright sunlight and even with my eyes.... I can read it without using reading glasses. At night I use a small LED light with a red lens shade instead of trying to use the backlight (which I find too bright anyway). Craig Jungers Royal City, WA On 10/7/06, PeterO <rebyl_kayak_at_iprimus.com.au> wrote: > > G'Day, > > Joe and Craig responded to Brian's question and reported no problems with > waterproofing their GPS72's. This was encouraging but I just wanted to > check > if their units were in waterproof bags or cases. > > I've been thinking of buying one of these units but don't want to put it > into a waterproof bag because of an anticipated difficulty in reading the > screen in bright sunlight though the transparent plastic. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Brian Curtiss wrote: > (I'm assuming that IPX7 & JPX7 are > basically the same --- is this not true?) Do you mean JIS7? If so, yes the IPX and JIS standards appear to be the same. > Here are the various ratings for reference: There is a JIS8 as well - the unit can withstand continuous submersion for a specified time and depth. For cameras and radios, JIS8 usually means 1.5m for 30 min, though some are rated to 3-5m for that time. > If a device is IPX7, doesn't that mean that it also meets the IPX1-6 > (particularly 4-6) standards? I've always understood the IPX/JIS standards to be accumulative - each standard to include all lower ones. Mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I've had my Garmin GPS 72 out often this season with no visible water ingress. I haven't rolled with it but it's dipped itself into the water at least twice with no harmful effects. Two lemons in a row are a bit much but I suppose anything is possible. I really like the 72 ... easy to see, simple controls, tides, and a map tracking ability. The trip-meter with the moving and the stopped (ahem!) times accumulated and average for total time and time moving is especially nice. Sometimes I dawdle. :P Craig Jungers Royal City, WA On 10/6/06, Brian Curtiss <bc_at_asdi.com> wrote: <snip> > Have I just gotten two lemons, or are Garmin's > IPX7 gps units really not on par with Icom's > JPX-7 radios? (I'm assuming that IPX7 & JPX7 are > basically the same --- is this not true?) *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
-- Also been using a GPS 72 for a few years now. It's gotten wet and thoroughly soaked and never a problem. I know two other paddlers who use GPS 76 ers (more elaborate but the same casing and mechanical construction) and they too have never had any problems with water. So yeah, maybe you did get two lemons in a row. Now, in Atlantic City if you got a third one... Joe P. > [Original Message] > From: Craig Jungers > Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Waterproof(?) electronics > > I've had my Garmin GPS 72 out often this season with no visible water > ingress. I haven't rolled with it but it's dipped itself into the water at > least twice with no harmful effects. Two lemons in a row are a bit much but > I suppose anything is possible. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> Joe and Craig responded to Brian's question and reported no problems with > waterproofing their GPS72's. This was encouraging but I just wanted to check > if their units were in waterproof bags or cases. > Mine is used right out in the open. --Gets drips etc. on it all the time. When I began using it I too was cautious. Kept it in one of those see-through dry bags. I could see the screen just fine and could manipulate the keys. After seeing the GPS 76ers keeping theirs out under the bungees I began to do that too. I still use a GPS 12 from time to time and it usually lives in the see-through bag but sometimes it's carried in a divers' drybox with a transparent plastic lid. I can see the screen fine but obviously can't punch keys. It's used this way if I'm carrying other stuff like a camera or cellphone... Joe P. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Like many things in our culture, it seems we lose sight of the fact that it's not the bombproof roll in all conditions, on both sides that's important. It's the journey and the learning that occurs along the way that matters. Having learned to roll, I find my braces are better, my confidence higher and my willingness to experiment with other techniques far greater. Even just understanding what occurs during a successful roll can help one learn techniques like the re-enter and roll with or without a paddlefloat which can be a very handy technique in conditions too rough for other types or self rescue. Like Bill Cosby used to say on the intro to the old Fat Albert show, ".. if you're not careful, you may learn something before you're done." Cheers, Lou --------------------------------- All-new Yahoo! Mail - Fire up a more powerful email and get things done faster. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Perhaps another way to say this is: "A bad roll is worse than no roll at all." I don't agree with this statement. Why? For me, the process of learning to roll improved my edging and bracing rather dramatically. Perhaps this is a side-effect, but it is an important benefit. The challenge with the roll is that the conditions which lead to the capsize will still exist when you roll back up again. A roll is not a substitute for learning your limits. The only way you are going to learn to roll in challenging conditions, is to practise the roll in challenging conditions. A pool is a good place to start, but you've got to take it out into the real world for it to be a functional skill. You can't step from "no roll" to "king of the roll" without taking the steps inbetween. Derek --- Jim Farrelly <JFarrelly5_at_comcast.net> wrote: > I snipped this from page 29 of the latest Wavelength > mag. It is from the > article To Roll Or Not To Roll by Dan Lewis. > I caught myself wrinkling my brow when I first read > it. But if I apply > the author's standard to most of the sea kayak > rollers I know it seems > to fit. Most of my buddies can roll well enough in a > non pressure > situation. But when the accidental capsize occurs > its punchout time for > many of them. > Jim et al > > > > "In terms of a self rescue, I think the roll is a > fairly unrealistic > response to many capsizesif youre tipping over by > fluke in flatwater > conditions, you probably arent gripping the kayak > tightly enough with > your knees to stay in and roll back up. If youre > tipping over because > youre paddling in wind and waves beyond your > abilities, you are quite > likely to be too freaked out to stay in the boat and > roll, and even if > you do, youre right back in the same situation. If > you are capsizing > due to a lack of judgement or understanding of ocean > conditions, then > you might be better off investing your time learning > to understand the > weather, the ocean, and how to navigate to avoid > problems." > --------------------------------------------------------------- Please limit all email attachments sent to this address to a maximum of 0.5MB. All email attachments that are larger then 0.5MB will automatically be deleted. --------------------------------------------------------------- ICQ: 262152266, AIM: GlamourpetsD, MSN: [my email address], Yahoo Messenger: glamourpets --------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Perhaps another way to say this is: "A bad roll is worse than no roll at all." I don't agree with this statement. Why? For me, the process of learning to roll improved my edging and bracing rather dramatically. Perhaps this is a side-effect, but it is an important benefit. The challenge with the roll is that the conditions which lead to the capsize will still exist when you roll back up again. A roll is not a substitute for learning your limits. The only way you are going to learn to roll in challenging conditions, is to practise the roll in challenging conditions. A pool is a good place to start, but you've got to take it out into the real world for it to be a functional skill. You can't step from "no roll" to "king of the roll" without taking the steps inbetween. Derek *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Mr. Lewis must be hanging around with Mr. Dowd lately. Anyway, the way most folks fit in their kayaks rather slopply, who'd want to roll? Real combat rolls? Yeah, Dan's got a point. Then again, after a few missed combat rolls in extremis and subsequent colds swims, assuming you survive, you get real proficient at future rolls, believe me. I still think reliable rolling relates directly to proper head space. Anyone poo-pooing rolling wholesale needs to give their head a shake. Or I volunteer to slap them on the side of the head next time I see them. :-) Hey, anyone seen the new Coast Guard rescue movie with Kevin Costner? I'm looking forward to it. Doug Lloyd >I snipped this from page 29 of the latest Wavelength mag. It is from the >article To Roll Or Not To Roll by Dan Lewis. > I caught myself wrinkling my brow when I first read it. But if I apply the > author's standard to most of the sea kayak rollers I know it seems to fit. > Most of my buddies can roll well enough in a non pressure situation. But > when the accidental capsize occurs its punchout time for many of them. > Jim et al > > > > "In terms of a self rescue, I think the roll is a fairly unrealistic > response to many capsizesif youre tipping over by fluke in flatwater > conditions, you probably arent gripping the kayak tightly enough with > your knees to stay in and roll back up. If youre tipping over because > youre paddling in wind and waves beyond your abilities, you are quite > likely to be too freaked out to stay in the boat and roll, and even if you > do, youre right back in the same situation. If you are capsizing due to a > lack of judgement or understanding of ocean conditions, then you might be > better off investing your time learning to understand the weather, the > ocean, and how to navigate to avoid problems." *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
[Please remove all old content that is not pertinent to your reply including old headers and footers. It's list policy.... this post was modified to meet policy] Hi Doug, Give me a call I'd like to see the flick as well. I'm nest in line for the slap on the head. Gordin At 10:51 PM 10/5/06, Doug Lloyd wrote: >Mr. Lewis must be hanging around with Mr. Dowd lately. > >I still think reliable rolling relates directly to proper head space. > >Anyone poo-pooing rolling wholesale needs to give their head a >shake. Or I volunteer to slap them on the side of the head next time >I see them. :-) > >Hey, anyone seen the new Coast Guard rescue movie with Kevin >Costner? I'm looking forward to it. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Well, I was speaking figuratively of course. Besides, slapping any alpha-guru sea kayaker on the side of the head, literally or otherwise, especially inside the hallowed parameters of their seemingly exclusive client/guide zone, is bound to initiate a Haida-scale retribution (inside joke, okay). Reliable rolling as a rescue, while under duress, really does work for sea kayaking. I've been knocked down a few time, unawares I was directly over a boomer zone, just as a big swell has suddenly caused a violent explosion. With a fully loaded yak, just slow the pace a bit to correspond to the required momentum. One could also stay further of shore. As for rolling in wind and waves, the word on the waves is, of course, practice rolling in those conditions. Or, simply stay away from those kind of sea states to be 100 percent prudent (if that's possible). Hey, seen the new King Kong remake yet? There's some great rock garden navigating, including a seal landing in extreme seas along a wild coastline. However, it happens aboard a cargo ship. Doug > Hi Doug, > > Give me a call I'd like to see the flick as well. I'm nest in line for > the slap on the head. > > Gordin > > At 10:51 PM 10/5/06, Doug Lloyd wrote: >>Mr. Lewis must be hanging around with Mr. Dowd lately. >> >>I still think reliable rolling relates directly to proper head space. >> >>Anyone poo-pooing rolling wholesale needs to give their head a shake. Or I >>volunteer to slap them on the side of the head next time I see them. :-) >> >>Hey, anyone seen the new Coast Guard rescue movie with Kevin Costner? I'm >>looking forward to it. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 07:57 PM 10/11/06, Doug Lloyd wrote: >Well, I was speaking figuratively of course. Besides, slapping any >alpha-guru sea kayaker on the side of the head, literally or >otherwise, especially inside the hallowed parameters of their >seemingly exclusive client/guide zone, is bound to initiate a >Haida-scale retribution (inside joke, okay). Yeah, I knew you were speaking figuratively, you being a peace nik and all. :-) Actually I sort of envisioned an "Airplane" like scene. There's poor Dan sitting in his boat, wearing his fools hat, while the entire kayak community glides by and whacks him on the side of the head saying things like: The nurse, "Pull yourself together man". The Nun, "Get a grip." Another man, "We'll always have Paris". The army Capt., "I love the smell of Napalm in the morning", The fat old guy "Rosebud." Doug, "Ya feeling lucky Punk." My father "This is going to hurt me more then you." I think Dan was having a bit of fun with us. Gordin *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
[Please remove all old content that is not pertinent to your reply including old headers and footers. It's list policy.... this post was modified to meet policy] Yeah, I read the article in its entirety this weekend (sorry to see Alan Wilson anouncing his retiring from the ed position in the latest Wavelength issue). Anyway, thought Dan covered the rolling issue it very well, actually. Sea kayaking isn't always so night-black and day-white. Usually subtle shades most of the time as you know. My thoughts about sea kayaking in general and rolling in particular, parallel my thoughts about most other things in life too - if it ain't fun, stop. Caught The Manchurian Candidate (the remake with Denzil Washington) last night on DVD. There was a scene where the President-to-be drowns a Senator while he's out kayaking. We used to try and do this too each other at our Club pool sessions, unexpectedly having a swimmer go in and flip (or try to flip) people over in their yaks and keep 'm down until they got their groove and did a strong enough roll back up. No. Not to the point of drowning, but I remember taking a lot of water up the nose one night. Good stuff man. Ah those were the days - slap me silly or what? Doug L. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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