Would like to know of any practical roof rack experience from anyone who has carried a kayak with the forward rack mounted to a pickup roof and the aft rack attached to a fiberglass cap. I'd like to be able to use a third bar at the aft end of the cap with rollers or a skid to get the kayaks up, but then secure them on the next two bars forward. This bridges a gap between the truck roof and the cap, obviously. Specifics: tough old F150 with rain gutters, short cab, long bed, and a solid Leer cap the same height as the truck cab. Perfect fit. Will put artificial rain gutters (Thule) on the cap, but prefer the idea of the truck roof supporting some of the load and the cap handling the rest. Also keeps the kayaks above the truck vice carrying the load on the cap and having some overhang aft. All old, substantial Thule or Yak rack gear with an old, substantial paddler at the wheel. Just never before in a truck. The obvious concern is that if there is some significant flexing or movement between the cap and the cab, the kayak might be stressed or the finish scuffed over time. But there's movement on other racks -- observed on others' vehicles -- and we survive. The intuitive reaction is that forces will damage the boat. Does anyone have first hand evidence corroborating this -- or, better, refuting it? For the record, I stopped kayaking (and PaddleWise participation) about five years ago, after my Audi A4 Avant (wagon) was converted into an A3 (the Audi approximation of the VW Golf) by a Ford F250 at a stop light. The car was totalled, and the impact set off a plaque avalanche that put me in the hospital for some coronary artery remediation. The Chesapeake Light Craft North Bay (three and four mil plywood under fiberglass) on the roof rack survived with some cosmetic rubber scuffing, while the Audi factory roof rack collapsed -- as did the driver's seat. Everything is relative, and a wood boat beats a metal car, a manufacturer-designed rack and my semi-automatic personal pump -- but the car and the rack were totalled and I'm fixed. So living on a Ford/Leer expansion joint may be not that hard for a CLC boat or two and an ancient VCP Pintail to handle. But I'd still like to find out from someone else's experience. Sorry about the length of the text. (Great to be back with the list.) Jack ("Joq") Martin Canoe Neck Creek in Southern Maryland *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Martin, Jack wrote: > Would like to know of any practical roof rack experience from anyone who > has carried a kayak with the forward rack mounted to a pickup roof and > the aft rack attached to a fiberglass cap. [snip] The obvious concern is > that if there is some significant flexing or movement between the cap > and the cab, the kayak might be stressed or the finish scuffed over > time. Glad you're back Joq. Yeah, I did that truck cap/cab rack jack thing on a Mazda and then a Toyota, totalling some 12 seasons of hauling boats, mostly one at a time, but a couple long trips to Canada with two, and one to Canada (Charlottes) with a monster double and a single up there. Oh, yeah, once I had three, on some 80 inch custom Yakima bars. Four souls and gear for two weeks aboard. The rack manufacturers will tell you not to do it, but I'll tell you it works fine. There is some working side to side of the cab/canopy system, but I never noticed any damage to any of the four or five different boats I hauled that way. A good bit of the travel was on rough logging roads. BTW, Hully Rollers are a good thing for the rear cradles. Makes loading a lot easier. -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Thanks, Dave. Good being back. I have some early edition Hullies around somewhere, and considered using them. An alternative is a piece of PVC pipe on Yak bars, although I've never tried it. Makes a reasonable, low profile, very low cost roller. Joq - BTW, Hully Rollers are a good thing for the rear cradles. Makes loading a lot easier. -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> The obvious concern is that if there is some significant flexing or > movement between the cap and the cab, the kayak might be stressed or the > finish scuffed over time. But there's movement on other racks -- > observed on others' vehicles -- and we survive. The intuitive reaction > is that forces will damage the boat. Does anyone have first hand > evidence corroborating this -- or, better, refuting it? Not directly, but similar. I had a Ford Explorer, with Yakima towers and cross bars mounted to the factory roof rack slider bits. My wife and I did a trip to Baja, carrying a surf kayak and a 22 foot Seda Tandem. We drove some amazingly bad "roads". At a checkpoint, I went to shake the boats, to make sure the straps were tight, and the rack moved. Huh? I checked closely, and the rack and TORN the sheetmetal. The expansion bolt things had ripped the metal of the roof, on opposite corners of the rack, clearly from the flex of the truck versus the rack. And this was on a one piece SUV. Both boats were fine. I almost would have preferred the boats to be damaged, as I can do fiberglass repair well, but don't know much about bodyshop repairs. Funnily enough, my wife and I had chosen to do a trip to Mexico as an inexpensive vacation, and had a great time. We spend about $250 for 6 days vacation, mostly on gas. Great right? Except when we got back, I spent about $1600 fixing my truck, body repair, 2 new tires, new alignment, and a new battery, as we'd cracked the case on the old one. We probably could have flown to Cabo cheaper. Geoff ____________________________________ Geoff Jennings geoff_at_texaskilonewton.com http://www.kimandgeoff.com/ "To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or that we are to stand by the president right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." - Teddy Roosevelt *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Geoff wrote: " I had a Ford Explorer, with Yakima towers and cross bars mounted to the factory roof rack slider bits. My wife and I did a trip to Baja, carrying a surf kayak and a 22 foot Seda Tandem. We drove some amazingly bad "roads". At a checkpoint, I went to shake the boats, to make sure the straps were tight, and the rack moved. Huh? I checked closely, and the rack and TORN the sheetmetal. The expansion bolt things had ripped the metal of the roof, on opposite corners of the rack, clearly from the flex of the truck versus the rack. And this was on a one piece SUV. _____________ I've heard similar reports from body shop people. FACTORY RACK has a nice, solid connotation to it, but they're literally screwed into expansion fittings and are held down by the roof sheet metal. My old Subaru had a notoriously "soft" roof -- either Thule's or Yakima's description in the 1997 timeframe. A bow and stern line -- or two -- on each kayak kept things of a piece, but I also checked the roof rack on a frequent basis. Have been away from the list, and don't want to walk on past debates, but I won't carry anything on the roof without bow and stern lines to hardpoints near the bumpers. Had I not had them on my Audi A4 wagon when I was hit by the F250, the driver would have had a very close view of the stern of my overly sharp-ended CLC Northbay as it entered his windscreen at his eyeball level. The stern line partially melted from the heat of its own stretch at the impact, but it held. The Audi factory rails held where the roof hadn't buckled, but the Thule cross bars failed structurally. The bow and stern lines saved that idiot's life. They also helped the constant stresses of car-topping kayaks to a manageable level. Yeah, bow and stern lines -- it's just an opinion. But I've saved that fried REI eight mm climbing line if anyone's interested in a defense of that opinion. Empirical evidence that bow and stern lines serve multiple functions, and, at least in one case, saved a life. Jack *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Hey, I can relate to that! A few years ago, my old Accord wagon was rear-ended on the highway when I slowed for traffic. It probably wasn't as hard an impact as Jack's, but I have always thought the bow lines kept the kayaks from going through the windshield of the Jeep that hit me. We were en route to our club's cold-water immersion event, and as we exchanged information after the crash, I don't think the driver of the other vehicle even noticed I was wearing a drysuit. Chuck Holst > Have been away from the list, and don't want to walk on past debates, > but I won't carry anything on the roof without bow and stern lines to > hardpoints near the bumpers. Had I not had them on my Audi A4 wagon > when I was hit by the F250, the driver would have had a very close view > of the stern of my overly sharp-ended CLC Northbay as it entered his > windscreen at his eyeball level. <snip> > Jack *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Quite a few years ago someone on Paddlewise gave the handy tip of putting a lasso around the cockpit coaming and tying it off to the bumper. This was to prevent the kayak from flying off the rack in case you rear ended someone. This was in addition to bow and stern lines. Jim et al On May 23, 2007, at 1:22 PM, cholst_at_bitstream.net wrote: > Hey, I can relate to that! A few years ago, my old Accord wagon was > rear-ended on the highway when I slowed for traffic. It probably > wasn't as > hard an impact as Jack's, but I have always thought the bow lines > kept the > kayaks from going through the windshield of the Jeep that hit me. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> Jack Martin wrote: >> Would like to know of any practical roof rack experience from anyone who >> has carried a kayak with the forward rack mounted to a pickup roof and >> the aft rack attached to a fiberglass cap. [snip] The obvious concern is >> that if there is some significant flexing or movement between the cap >> and the cab, the kayak might be stressed or the finish scuffed over >> time. > Dave Kruger responded: > Yeah, I did that truck cap/cab rack jack thing on a Mazda and then a > Toyota, totalling some 12 seasons of hauling boats <snip> The rack > manufacturers will tell you not to do it, but I'll tell you it > works fine. There is some working side to side of the cab/canopy system, > but I never noticed any damage to any of the four or five different boats > I hauled that way. A good bit of the travel was on rough logging roads. > Much depends on the particular truck and how it's built. My Mitsu had a bed that had a fair amount of lateral movement in relation to the cab, though maximum separation of the racks minimized relative lateral movement of the attachment points (through-bolted on the reinforced FG cap, rain gutters on the cab). Worst case scenario was a bit of loosening of the tiedown ropes - which was mitigated through religious use of bow and stern lines - though I never went four-wheeling or traveled rough roads for any distance with the sea kayak (when doing so with whitewater boats, they were mounted on racks attached only to the cap). Erik Sprenne *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Erik Sprenne wrote: > Much depends on the particular truck and how it's built. > > My Mitsu had a bed that had a fair amount of lateral movement in > relation to the cab, though maximum separation of the racks minimized > relative lateral movement of the attachment points That's a very good point. I should have mentioned that both of my PU/canopy/rack setups had the rear rack _all_ the way aft, with the supports just an inch or two forward of the roof break. This no doubt contributed to the favorable experience I had. I placed them there not because I was worried about the effects of lateral movement, but so I could easily slide yaks onto racks from the rear (via Hullies). -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I have two paddling friends with pickup trucks and racks. Well, one of them traded his p/u in on a Jeep. Anyway, one has a compact p/u with a canopy and the rear rack mounts (bolted) to the canopy while the front rack is mounted to the cab's roof (I do not know what method she uses for mounting the front rack). I don't believe any damage has occurred from this arrangement. She drives back and forth between Puget Sound and eastern Washington across the Cascades; usually with at least one kayak on board. The other friend had a full-sized 3/4-ton pickup (before he traded it in on the Jeep) and the rack was entirely mounted to the p/u bed via uprights placed into the handy square holes full-sized pickup beds have at each corner. The rack was built (as best as I can recall) from welded steel. He had all the crossbeams padded and one simply lifted the bow onto the rear crossbeam (located right *at* the rear), walked back to the stern and pushed the boat onto the rack. No part of the rack was permanently tied to the cab. This seemed to me to work well and was wide enough for at least 3 kayaks. Both of these friends read (but seldom post to) Paddlewise and maybe they'd like to expand on it. Craig Jungers Royal City, WA *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Craig Jungers wrote: > > The other friend had a full-sized 3/4-ton pickup (before he traded it in on > the Jeep) and the rack was entirely mounted to the p/u bed via uprights > placed into the handy square holes full-sized pickup beds have at each > corner. The rack was built (as best as I can recall) from welded steel. He > had all the crossbeams padded and one simply lifted the bow onto the rear > crossbeam (located right *at* the rear), walked back to the stern and pushed > the boat onto the rack. No part of the rack was permanently tied to the cab. > This seemed to me to work well and was wide enough for at least 3 kayaks. > > Both of these friends read (but seldom post to) Paddlewise and maybe they'd > like to expand on it. > > The rack is from kargomaster, is excellent in terms of quality and price, solid and installed (by one) with minimum damage to my vehicle. I drilled 8 holes in an after market bed rail protector, and the size for the bed was perfect. Other vehicles may vary... This is a tough unit, modest in profile but professional in grade. Not welded square stock; good stuff. www.kargomaster.com I am not affiliated with this company and don't get paid. (unfortunately, by some who should - my internet customers, yuk yuk). I kept the rack but forgot to pull the electric brake stuff out. I guess I know what I thought was most valuable.. I sold the truck, but kept the rack, and use it for kayak storage outside during the summer. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I don't recall the actual cost but, the best "pick-up" rack I ever had was actually a ladder rack. It could be mounted on the bed rails under your cap. I then used some U-Bolts to affix the Yakima/Thule cross bars to the ladder rack. good luck Martin, Jack wrote: >Would like to know of any practical roof rack experience from anyone who >has carried a kayak with the forward rack mounted to a pickup roof and >the aft rack attached to a fiberglass cap. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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