Goffma_at_aol.com wrote: >>> Does the wet-exit demonstration requirement apply to guided >>> groups? It would be a real burden here in Maine if you had to >>> have the entire group wet-exit into the frigid waters before you >>> could guide them around the lovely scenery. Nobody wants to >>> start the day out cold and wet. [big snip] > > During my first paddling instruction at camp (age 10) a wet exit was taught as part of the paddling curriculum. As a camp tripper, I had each group practice a wet exit before the trip left the camp. When I first married, I made my wife go through the exercise and then when my kids first got into our canoe (ages 3 &5) we went through the wet exit exercise again. Usually, these family practice sessions occurred in mid-May and in Michigan it's still pretty chilly. I can't see an outfitter going through this at the start of each trip, so I guess a whopping insurance policy is the outcome. Ray Buch East Lansing, MI *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Does the wet-exit demonstration requirement apply to guided groups? It would be a real burden here in Maine if you had to have the entire group wet-exit into the frigid waters before you could guide them around the lovely scenery. Nobody wants to start the day out cold and wet. Do they need to actually do a wet-exit before going paddling in case they flip? I would say no - if the boats and skirts are selected properly so that they release easily. A roto-molded boat and a nylon skirt usually part company pretty fast, with or without a lot of effort on the part of the inverted paddler. I would say it's a different level of risk when you are talking about fiberglass boats and neoprene skirts , which I think was the case in the fatality that lead to this law being constructed. These materials can be quite "sticky" and require a good execution of the wet-exit procedure to separate. You should require real water training if you are using equipment like that. Mark Goff Hampden, Maine Registered Maine Kayak Guide ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Goffma_at_aol.com wrote: >Does the wet-exit demonstration requirement apply to guided groups? > ..... >Do they need to actually do a wet-exit before going paddling in case they >flip? > Have everyone sign a waiver that they understand the trip is not a training class. Jackie *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Goffma_at_aol.com wrote: > Does the wet-exit demonstration requirement apply to guided groups? It > would be a real burden here in Maine if you had to have the entire group wet-exit > into the frigid waters before you could guide them around the lovely > scenery. Nobody wants to start the day out cold and wet. [big snip] I agree it is not customer friendly to start them out wet. OTOH, they should understand and appreciate the nature of the boat/system they are about to use for transport. Could be that some attention to a change of clothes, and some ample towelage would allow them to sample a wet exit or two, dry off and change into dry togs, and then go touring. Probably make them a bit more cautious about capsizing, no? -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Jun 8, 2007, at 1:11 AM, Dave Kruger wrote: > Goffma_at_aol.com wrote: >> Does the wet-exit demonstration requirement apply to guided >> groups? It would be a real burden here in Maine if you had to >> have the entire group wet-exit into the frigid waters before you >> could guide them around the lovely scenery. Nobody wants to >> start the day out cold and wet. [big snip] > This outfitter seems to think its worth the trouble. With pictures and stuff of cold wet customers. http://www.yachtforums.com/forums/general-yachting-discussion/7055- splash.html Enjoy, Jim *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I think the prospect of swimming in less than 55 degree water would dissuade most people from signing up for the trip even if they were promised instant teleportation to a sauna. Many of these people don't even want to get their feet wet while getting into their boats - full submersion is out of the question. This is not to say that it wouldn't be beneficial and improve safety, but it is pretty tough as a business model: We will bring you out to see beautiful things, but we first want to attempt to drown you and bring you to the verge of hypothermia. The people who are willing to sign up despite the requirement of a dunking are probably at the lowest risk of panic in a capsize, and in least need of the actual dunking. I suspect that businesses would instantly lose a significant percentage of their customers and as a result go out of business. So, the question becomes: is the opportunity to experience beautiful places worth the risk of a very small number of people dying in the attempt? I think that is up to a fully informed customer to decide. Nick On Jun 8, 2007, at 1:11 AM, Dave Kruger wrote: > Goffma_at_aol.com wrote: >> Does the wet-exit demonstration requirement apply to guided >> groups? It would be a real burden here in Maine if you had to >> have the entire group wet-exit into the frigid waters before you >> could guide them around the lovely scenery. Nobody wants to >> start the day out cold and wet. [big snip] > > I agree it is not customer friendly to start them out wet. OTOH, > they should understand and appreciate the nature of the boat/system > they are about to use for transport. Nick Schade Guillemot Kayaks 824 Thompson St Glastonbury, CT 06033 USA Ph/Fx: (860) 659-8847 http://www.guillemot-kayaks.com/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Nick Schade wrote: > So, the question becomes: is the opportunity to experience beautiful > places worth the risk of a very small number of people dying in the > attempt? I think that is up to a fully informed customer to decide. I suppose, put in the context of scenic flights, roller coasters, and bungie jumping, etc. ... paddling on cold water, in the company of a competent guide able to avoid difficult conditions ... may be a reasonable risk. Be good to lawyer up tight with a good consent form ahead of time. After all, life is full of risk. And then, you die. -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Lest you think this is restricted to Massachusetts, I once had a class in Charleston, SC in mid May in which one of the students got so chilled from the obligatory wet exit at the start of class that he did not continue the course. He was appropriately dressed and did the exit willingly when I explained why I thought it was needed. He was 70+ years old. Steve Nick Schade wrote: > I think the prospect of swimming in less than 55 degree water would > dissuade most people from signing up for the trip even if they were > promised instant teleportation to a sauna. Many of these people don't > even want to get their feet wet while getting into their boats - full > submersion is out of the question. This is not to say that it wouldn't > be beneficial and improve safety, but it is pretty tough as a business > model: We will bring you out to see beautiful things, but we first want > to attempt to drown you and bring you to the verge of hypothermia. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> Goffma_at_aol.com wrote: >> Does the wet-exit demonstration requirement apply to guided >> groups? It would be a real burden here in Maine if you had to >> have the entire group wet-exit into the frigid waters before you >> could guide them around the lovely scenery. Nobody wants to >> start the day out cold and wet. [big snip] On Jun 8, 2007, at 1:11 AM, Dave Kruger wrote: > I agree it is not customer friendly to start them out wet. OTOH, they > should understand and appreciate the nature of the boat/system they > are about to use for transport. On June 08, 2007 9:07 AM Nick Schade wrote: I think the prospect of swimming in less than 55 degree water would dissuade most people from signing up for the trip even if they were promised instant teleportation to a sauna. Many of these people don't even want to get their feet wet while getting into their boats - full submersion is out of the question. This is not to say that it wouldn't be beneficial and improve safety, but it is pretty tough as a business model: We will bring you out to see beautiful things, but we first want to attempt to drown you and bring you to the verge of hypothermia. The people who are willing to sign up despite the requirement of a dunking are probably at the lowest risk of panic in a capsize, and in least need of the actual dunking. I suspect that businesses would instantly lose a significant percentage of their customers and as a result go out of business. So, the question becomes: is the opportunity to experience beautiful places worth the risk of a very small number of people dying in the attempt? I think that is up to a fully informed customer to decide. On June 15 Ralph Hoehn writes: That brings up an excellent point: in a business situation can the business be expected to take on all responsibility or does the ultimate responsibility for safety remain with the client? And to what extent is the client even able to assess the risks? A few days ago we met up with a gentleman who is planning to paddle the full length of the Mississippi in up to 90 days, starting some time in July ... after his scheduled prostrate biopsy, whatever the outcome of that. The fully decked folding boat that he intends to use is so stable that he thinks it highly unlikely to capsize during the entire trip. However, he readily agreed that it would be wise to test his self-rescue equipment in any case. There was a bit of a breeze out on the lake, so the testing even had a slight element of realism ... After receiving a brief explanation of how his deckbag-cum-paddlefloat is best deployed, he held his nose and, with some difficulty, rolled the boat over. He seemed to experience very little disorientation after his head popped back up, kept his paddle between himself and the boat while unbuckling one side of the deck bag, which he then flipped over with the other side still buckled so that he could insert one paddle blade into the bag's underside pouch. He then attached the other blade to the aft deck and scrambled back into the boat. Since he is very light and the boat fairly big, he did not at first realize that scrambling around on top of the deck as if on dry land raises even his light centre of gravity to a point where the total stability of the paddler-plus-boat is compromised. On the first go around he got away with it. The second time he did pitch over the other side -- should have put some binoculars, water, etc. in that deckbag to act as a counterweight, I guess -- that taught him a valuable lesson! He scrambled right back up though and then went over a fourth time for a final confidence booster. The water was not all that cold, but I was glad that I was wearing my neoprene farmer john! By the time we got back into the car, our friend, in light shirt and shorts, was shivering quite badly from the combined chilling effect of the immersion and the subsequent drying in the breeze. I wonder whether he would have been "fully informed" other than through this experience -- mere words might not have got the message across. I'm no friend of restrictive legislation, certainly not when it concerns personal safety -- in general that's best left to personal responsibility in my view. However, I wonder whether it is a good business model, whatever the short term profit motive, to take paying clients "to experience beautiful places" if those clients were to display a singular lack of personal responsibility by being put off the proposed trip by going through an exercise that is quite necessary to increase their safety and that of would-be rescuers if things do go wrong? Ralph Hoehn *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
"Fully informed" does not mean they need to be told how they will feel when they are actually in the water. It can be "You may die if you fall in this water. Chances are very low that you will, however if you do, there are a few things you can do that help your survival. We would like to help you practice them before we, but you will get wet and cold. You are not required to practice them, but we strongly recommend it." I don't think it is a bad business model to forego the wet exit training given how low the likelihood of the clients swimming really is. There are kayak tour groups going out somewhere in this country every day. How many deaths due to the inability to wet exit have there been? I can only think of one, and it has lead to this proposed law. How much effort should a business go through to reduce the death rate to zero? It is impossible to create that kind of safety, so a line must be drawn somewhere. I don't know where the proper point is. There are many businesses which operate with much more risk. Ski areas let their customers choose where on the mountain they will ski without the requirement to prove they can do it safely. Shouldn't they require everyone pass a test before they start down a double black diamond? Nick On Jun 15, 2007, at 8:34 AM, Ralph Hoehn wrote: > The water was not all that cold, but I was glad that I was wearing my > neoprene farmer john! By the time we got back into the car, our > friend, in > light shirt and shorts, was shivering quite badly from the combined > chilling > effect of the immersion and the subsequent drying in the breeze. I > wonder > whether he would have been "fully informed" other than through this > experience -- mere words might not have got the message across. > > I'm no friend of restrictive legislation, certainly not when it > concerns > personal safety -- in general that's best left to personal > responsibility in > my view. However, I wonder whether it is a good business model, > whatever the > short term profit motive, to take paying clients "to experience > beautiful > places" if those clients were to display a singular lack of personal > responsibility by being put off the proposed trip by going through an > exercise that is quite necessary to increase their safety and that of > would-be rescuers if things do go wrong? Nick Schade Guillemot Kayaks 824 Thompson St Glastonbury, CT 06033 USA Ph/Fx: (860) 659-8847 http://www.guillemot-kayaks.com/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Fully agreed, Nick! As I stated before, I do not support this type of legislation. I actually feel that responsibility for personal safety must remain with the individual, not with a business or even an instructor -- except for cases where a business sets out to mislead the customer to gain their business. That's certainly not the case here though. As far as I'm concerned your approach, described below, covers it. But people there are people out there who go boating (not just in kayaks either) without giving any thought to the risks and then rush to sue when they face the consequences of their own irresponsibility. Ralph -----Original Message----- From: Nick Schade "Fully informed" does not mean they need to be told how they will feel when they are actually in the water. It can be "You may die if you fall in this water. Chances are very low that you will, however if you do, there are a few things you can do that help your survival. We would like to help you practice them before we, but you will get wet and cold. You are not required to practice them, but we strongly recommend it." I don't think it is a bad business model to forego the wet exit training given how low the likelihood of the clients swimming really is. There are kayak tour groups going out somewhere in this country every day. How many deaths due to the inability to wet exit have there been? I can only think of one, and it has lead to this proposed law. How much effort should a business go through to reduce the death rate to zero? It is impossible to create that kind of safety, so a line must be drawn somewhere. I don't know where the proper point is. There are many businesses which operate with much more risk. Ski areas let their customers choose where on the mountain they will ski without the requirement to prove they can do it safely. Shouldn't they require everyone pass a test before they start down a double black diamond? Nick *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> Ski areas let their customers choose where on the mountain they > will ski without the requirement to prove they can do it safely. > Shouldn't they require everyone pass a test before they start down > a double black diamond? > Nick > > Agreed on your comparison Nick. But just how are we perceived? Skiing is very mainstream and well known. Kayaking is odd and unknown. Just look at the sticks some of them use to make the boat go. Those guys are nuts. Maybe we need to reel them in. A friend is a retired Army helicopter pilot with three stab wound scars from a bar fight gone bad. He once told me after a few beers that the fact that I take homemade boats out into the ocean was a very risky thing to do. It makes me laugh in a good way. Jim et al *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I agree and don't with these analogies. I once had a ski instructor tell me to go ahead and fall down and get it over with, so i wouldn't worry about it. I got cold and wet, didn't enjoy it much. Also, selling you a lift ticket is in a different class of fish from taking you on a guided tour, perhaps. I would also caution Jim about laughing at things that aren't jokes when uttered by guys who get in knife fights at bars. Steve James Farrelly wrote: >> Ski areas let their customers choose where on the mountain they will >> ski without the requirement to prove they can do it safely. Shouldn't >> they require everyone pass a test before they start down a double >> black diamond? >> Nick > > Agreed on your comparison Nick. But just how are we perceived? Skiing is > very mainstream and well known. Kayaking is odd and unknown. Just look > at the sticks some of them use to make the boat go. Those guys are nuts. > Maybe we need to reel them in. A friend is a retired Army helicopter > pilot with three stab wound scars from a bar fight gone bad. He once > told me after a few beers that the fact that I take homemade boats out > into the ocean was a very risky thing to do. It makes me laugh in a good > way. -- Steve Cramer Athens, GA http://www.savvypaddler.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
From: Goffma_at_aol.com > Does the wet-exit demonstration requirement apply to guided > groups? It would be a real burden here in Maine if you had to have > the entire group wet-exit into the frigid waters before you could > guide them around the lovely scenery. > Do they need to actually do a wet-exit before going paddling in case > they flip? I would say no - if the boats and skirts are selected > properly so that they release easily. Mark, I have to say that after 4 years of teaching beginners to kayak I am now fully convinced that a preliminary wet-exit is necessary. I have yet to see _anyone_ (including swimmers) fail to get at minimum disoriented and at worst panic when they capsize for the first time. If it is an unintentional capsize the reaction is almost always worse. Spending 30 minutes on a pre-trip practice capsize is the only way to alleviate this. Once over is worth more than hours of lecturing and "practicing" sitting on the ground. The cold water should not deter the practice - it should make it more necessary. If someone were to unintentionally capsize for the first time while you are all in your boats you are much less likely to give them the same level of help as when you are standing next to them in the water. I think the cold water would enhance the panic response even if it's not cold-shock level. You could have a lender dry-suit for practice so they can not be cold & wet when they begin the trip. BTW - the water doesn't need to be challenging. Most novice capsizes seem to be in flat calm with a little trip over the paddle. You may be lucky and never have the situation -- it's your call. Jennifer -- Jennifer Pivovar jpivovar_at_headwinds.org *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Some strong arguments can certainly be made in favor of doing wet exits, and teaching bracing for that matter, at the beginning of a class. This is an issue that the company I work for has struggled with for years. However we have found the reality of it is that it's just not practical. I have been teaching sea kayaking commercially for over fifteen years, and I can state for a fact that when the class becomes wet and cold you will lose their attention. Once that happens you might as well pack it in - nobody's going to learn anything more. The solutions to this dilemma are generally too prohibitive in time, money and student comfort, which in turn drives away potential customers. While some of the holly rollers on this list might think that a good thing, I doubt any of them are trying to make a living at this sport. I have to wonder just how important an issue this really is anyway? OK, so one guy had a problem in a class and his survivor, who has probably never been in a kayak before, appealed to some law maker who also has probably never been in a kayak before but thought he would try to fix a problem of which he really has no understanding. Yeah, I know I feel safer with people like that looking over me. Heck, several years ago a kayak instructor in Alaska demo'ed a roll and hit his head on the bottom and died. Perhaps we should pass a law requiring helmets be worn before rolling! These cases are tragic, but hardly representative of the dangers of our sport. Of the hundreds of classes I have taught over the years I have not had one single incident of someone's life being threatened as the result of a capsize. That's not to say it can never happen, but if it does it will be a very rare exception of the kind that is difficult to predict or prepare for. We take whatever precautions we can, but the incident in question was a fluke, plain and simple. It does not require a new law be passed to prevent future episodes, and I do not see a real problem with saving the intentional wet exits until the end of the class. Scott So.Cal. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Scott Hilliard said: I can state for a fact that when the class becomes wet and cold you will lose their attention. Once that happens you might as well pack it in - nobody's going to learn anything more. My two cents' worth - I lead trips for a youth counseling service. We take eight teens to Maine every August and do a Spring Break trip somewhere, usually the Everglades lately. Especially in Maine, where the water is cold, we have determined that a wet exit is not a good idea before sarting on the trip. Same reasons Scott gives - the wet, cold kids are not in a frame of mind to paddle safely. Our solution is to explain what they should do if they tip and to make sure before we go that everyone is comfortable swimming. The kids are always, without exception, in doubles, so the risk of tipping is greatly reduced. We don't paddle in rough conditions. And, most importantly, the spray skirts are nylon and pass the "knee test" before we paddle. That is, each kid sits in the cockpit, puts the skirt on, and then lifts his or her knee. If the skirt pops off, which it always does, then we know the kid will be out of the boat if it tips. The doubles have large cockpits, no concern about being stuck. If we get a warm day and are in camp early, we have the youth do wet exits before they go swimming, but the cold water keeps most of them from wanting to swim. This isn't ideal, but we have had doubles tip over only twice in all the trips we have done and no one has panicked or got hurt. I have always wanted to have a pre-trip wet exit session in a pool at home, but we feel nylon skirts is a safe and prudent compromise. The one time we went to Glacier Bay and had real skirts we did a half day pre-trip session that included wet exit and paddling practice. Jim Tibensky *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Saturday 09 June 2007 02:35, Jennifer wrote: > I have to say that after 4 years of teaching beginners to kayak I am now > fully convinced that a preliminary wet-exit is necessary. I have yet to > see _anyone_ (including swimmers) fail to get at minimum disoriented and > at worst panic when they capsize for the first time. If it is an > unintentional capsize the reaction is almost always worse. Spending 30 > minutes on a pre-trip practice capsize is the only way to alleviate > this. Once over is worth more than hours of lecturing and "practicing" > sitting on the ground. I agree fully! To make it less of a scare, submit watertight head-gear, as immersing your head can provoke the gasp reaction - been there, done that - and getting cold water into your ears can be dangerous, the experts tell me. When the wife and I accidentally rolled we both wore very water-repellent thick fleece caps from Musto (seem to be out of production - a pity!), and neither had any gasp reaction - thank God, as we were surrounded by a very cold sea - 38 F (3 C)! Tord *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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