With it being so quiet here on the western front, I wondered if you'd comment on your use of a rudder. It doesn't seem like you hear many paddlers of your experience using a rudder and I wonder if you use it mostly in certain circumstances and what those would be. I'm thinking of buying a freinds boat for playing around the rocks; the area where I tend to use my rudder a bit. It's a shorter boat than my usual, so it's pretty agile, but definately needs a rudder for traking in wind. Just thought it would be nice to hear your thoughts. Mark *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> With it being so quiet here on the western front, I wondered if you'd > comment > on your use of a rudder. It doesn't seem like you hear many paddlers of > your > experience using a rudder and I wonder if you use it mostly in certain > circumstances and what those would be. I'm thinking of buying a freinds > boat > for playing around the rocks; the area where I tend to use my rudder a > bit. > It's a shorter boat than my usual, so it's pretty agile, but definately > needs > a rudder for traking in wind. Just thought it would be nice to hear your > thoughts. > > Mark Mark, et al, While my perspective might not be worth a flip in the dip, I do tend to feel strongly that paddlers who tour in comfortable - and usually seaworthy kayaks these days - who employ the use of a rudder do so 80% of the time, when really, they only might need some rudder assistance 20% of the time. Those who enjoy rudderless kayaks probably would like to have a rudder 20% of the time. If all things were equal, my math wouldn't be too far off I suspect - at least for real-world sea kayaking conditions and today's generation of paddlers. Things are never equal as they say. And skegs only obfuscate the above further. In the end, it comes down to the ability of the paddler and secondarily, the design of the kayak. There are superb paddlers (I, not of that ilk) who can make any poorly designed (usually a touring model for the purposes of this discussion) kayak handle like a charm (both tracking and turning), meaning there are kayaks out there poorly designed that need a rudder or a skeg a good percentage of the time to track well without undue effort by the average paddler. While it is a given that most purpose-designed kayaks have intended, specific handling parameters, I much prefer to see the use of rudders and skegs, if they must be used, on these often more neutral, well behaved types of kayaks, the purpose of the chosen device being course holding. Also, kayaks designed for maneuverability will never track extremely well, though some designs show remarkable compromise. Adding a rudder to the former, isn't a bad solution to achieve a fun play boat that can still hold a course enroute to the play area. My own experience with rudders suggests there are certain advantages and disadvantages to using them and having one mounted. Rudders are not inherently "bad" things but, they are a mechanical device that can fail. We all know that I suppose. So are skegs, which more often that not it seems, jam while leaving the beach with a certain size pebble aggregate. Rudders do induce more drag. Rudders often disengage from "solid water" in following seas unless a deep draft design is used - which adds more drag. A broken rudder may compromise rapid egress in the event of sudden failure. In the late 70's/early 80's, Brit boats just didn't come with rudders. I added one to my Nordkapp HS, and came away with a semi-maneuverable boat that had fatigue limiting ability, as well as expeditionary and extreme sea condition handling - with the use of the deep draft rudder when undeployed and deployed, respectively. Unlike a skeg, I didn't have to worry about launching off the beach wishing I had a partner to pry my skeg out or the gear-loading compromises with a skeg box. Nor did I have to worry about an intrusion into the integrity of the hull. These were all important considerations for a small volume kayak with anticipated hard use around reef n' rock, paddled solo. I felt fully-rationalized, given Paul Caffyn's sacrilegious-success with a rudder, VCP's production of a tough, overstern retro-fit rudder, and examples of rock garden rudder use both by the Tsunami Rangers and Force 10. With consequential shoulder tendonitis as a fact of merely paddling - made worse by my youthful exuberance - my rudder allowed me to continue my spirited activities on the water (though I still sufferer considerably to this day from chronic shoulder pain, almost continually). I only object to skeg-snobbery revealed by those who intone, "No stinking rudder!" This would be easier to take from those who eschew all mechanical aids, save for the paddler, boat, and blade. Anyway, I'm getting off track myself here. Suffice it to say I have a chuckle whenever I here the non-rudder crowd exclaim, "I wish I had a rudder right now!" or even more funny when longtime rudderless, skegged-boat devotees add a rudder to their kayak one day. In terms of my own rudder use, I use it about 40% of the time in summer and 60% in winter, mostly due to the higher wind and wave values I tend to frequent in all season, in the context of my intrinsic shoulder problems no doubt. When deployed, the rudder is normally used in association with corrective tracking issues, not turning ones. I do use the rudder for turning assists in big, more open-water rock gardens to compensate, most likely, for the lack of maneuverability when comparing a kayak like my Nordkapp to say, a kayak like the Pintail. For long crossing, the rudder is a life saver, though I have been called to task in the past for that comment as a bit melodramatic. I remain steadfast, however. While forward paddling into quartering high winds, I like to get my chest down on the foredeck. This is a difficult bodily position to be in for edging control or directional stability using paddle blade skills. The rudder is a no-brainer here. And so to in steep, following or quartering seas: kayaks with low secondary stability make edging an exciting, if not anxious procedure. The rudder eliminates this. For all out sprint paddling, the rudder allows me to concentrate on symmetrical, efficient paddling with goodly body rotation. For towing in extremis, a rudder adds significantly in my highly opinionated view - allowing of course for a tow rig that avoids rudder interference. For sailing my Nordkapp, it seems esential to have a rudder. Having said all this, I'd still prefer not to have to use a rudder if it was possible. I'm sure a good, chined kayak, probably with a well made skeg used when demanding conditions extend for hours, combined with well-healed, improved paddling skills would sufficiently meet my own arbitrary requirements 90% of the time - even 95%. But that still isn't 100%. Doug Lloyd *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. 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> While my perspective might not be worth a flip in the dip, ....snip Doug, Nice write-up. My only comment is that the phrase 'need a rudder' is not helpful. The rudder should be considered primarily an energy saving device. Even in moderate conditions that can easily be handled without a rudder, i.e., rudder not 'needed', some small percentage of energy can often be saved by using the rudder and just paddling forward. So why not? Jerry *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
>> While my perspective might not be worth a flip in the dip, ....snip > > Doug, > Nice write-up. My only comment is that the phrase 'need a rudder' is not > helpful. The rudder should be considered primarily an energy saving > device. Even in moderate conditions that can easily be handled without a > rudder, i.e., rudder not 'needed', some small percentage of energy can > often be saved by using the rudder and just paddling forward. So why not? > Jerry Yes, absolutely - a rudder is an energy saving device. Interesting that in some locals where big seas are often the norm, rudder use tends to be high - as like down-under, Australia/New Zealand. I don't remember saying "need a rudder" as much as "might" need a rudder; probably should have said "might benefit from a rudder." Anyway, doesn't really matter, as with most things kayak related, it's all a matter of degree. And those who love rudders will usually continue to do so and those who don't, won't. For those that do, gas-style rudder pedders are a must in my book, as is a deep-draft rudder, efficient up/downhaul lines, robustness, leak-free routing, overstern configuration, and deployment only when needed - um, beneficial to energy saving. Don't forget routine maintenance. I routed my left/right lines through plastic deck fittings from a Perception parts inventory, molded into the deck about 12 years ago. I see the new VCP Rapier uses this exact same system. My wife wants a rudder on her kayak now, because she wants sea kayaking to be fun. For others, the fun of sea kayaking is doing it without a rudder. The point is, go have some fun. And as for the percentage of energy saving, don't forget to factor in the expenditure of energy while one is cursing the lack of a rudder when having one would be nice, and the cost associated with high blood pressure medication. :-) I remember reading a trip report is Sea Kayaker magazine, written by the actual editor, Christopher Cunningham - a fantastic paddler in his own right. He was sorely missing the inclusion of a rudder on his borrowed touring kayak somewhere in the Mediterranean, I think it was. Not sure if the boat was a bum design, or what though. Ah, to rudder or not to rudder, that is the question. Regardless, learn to "rudder" with your paddle first. Doug L *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
"Jerry F" <gfoodma_at_earthlink.net> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Doug, Nice write-up. My only comment is that the phrase 'need a rudder' is not helpful. The rudder should be considered primarily an energy saving device. Even in moderate conditions that can easily be handled without a rudder, i.e., rudder not 'needed', some small percentage of energy can often be saved by using the rudder and just paddling forward. So why not?<<<<< <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< Your efficiency point is arguable since rudders themselves cause additional drag just being in the water so they need to make up for more than they loose (with increased control of direction with less effort used--which may or may not be the case depending on many other factors, the kayak's design being a major one of those). So, you ask, why not? Well, rudder systems can have many disadvantages, many even if the rudder is never put in the water. 1)Less fatigue. Loose or spongy foot pedals diminish the power of your stroke in those systems where the rudder pedal slides (because of the reduction in being able to use thigh and calf muscles to help share the load). Where the pedals work like gas pedals just the calf muscles are mostly lost for sharing the hull drag load among your muscle groups. 2)Possible injury during carrying, in camp or at sea (sharp edges and corners can create difficulties especially during rescues. One person I'm aware of grabbed the cable to try to stop his kayak from getting away from him in small surf and the cable cut his hand to the bone. 3)A more jerky ride as the flat rudder surface is batted sideways by wave crests in steep cross-chop. 4)The rudder can trip you as it reenters the water during a broach especially if you try to correct the broach by using the rudder (straightening your down wave leg off its thigh brace as is common the way almost all rudder systems set up--with uncrossed cables). 5)Broken rudders, cables, corrosion, and wear mean far more maintenance is required. A rudder dependent paddler can suddenly go "cold turkey" in extreme conditions if the rudder fails. Or much worse, imagine your rudder stuck down and hard over to one side during a rough solo crossing. I once won a kayak race partly because a paddler in a faster kayak had this happen to him during the sprint at the start. After that he could only go in circles. 6)During Sea Kayaker magazine's tank tests a kayak rudder added 10% more drag (at 3 knots) on both of two separate runs. Even if the added isn't nearly this high with more modern rudders, the added drag would be a good reason to use it as little as possible. 7)Due to the toggle's location the hull usually bangs against your leg when carrying the stern. Changing tired hands on the toggle often means a choice between risking back or groin injury or putting the clean (wet) hull down in the sand. 8)Slower turns while moving because you straighten your knee to push the rudder pedal rather than lifting that knee to tilt the kayak. In testing over 500 North American kayaks leaned just short of putting the cockpit underwater I turned them in an average of 11.3 sec though 180 degrees. Keeping the kayaks level I averaged just over 19 seconds for the same turn. 9)Slower spins because of the rudder's drag and often inability to move nearly 90 degrees from straight back (the average of 225 tests was 25% slower with the rudder down than up.) 10)Fouling of towing or fishing lines. 11)A rudder aggravates weatherhelm by adding windage at the stern. 12)Correcting weatherhelm with a rudder adds considerably more paddling resistance because you must angle the rudder to go straight. This is equivalent of dragging a stick in the water as wide as the area the angled blade sweeps out to control the weather tendency of the boat. 13)Backing up, the rudder blade has a strong tendency to flop to one side or the other. (You might also be stopped or tangled more by seaweed as well). 14)Rudders have been hit by sharks. Some have speculated that the motion (or vibrations from the rudder) acts as a lure to them. 15)Rudders take time to work and the delay in feedback that delay causes often results in over control and zig-zagging. There is also less fine and precise control when using a pedal/cables/rudder system. I've found it is far more difficult to thread through a tight place with rudder control than by using paddle and lean control alone. 16)It gets in the way of learning other means of controlling the difficulties that it can help correct and often creates a depencency on the one part of the paddle/kayak/paddler system most likely to fail. And the rudder is most likely to fail at the times it is most needed by the rudder dependant rudderer/paddler (in rough and windy conditions when it is being put under the most stress). Matt Broze www.marinerkayaks.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I've already weighed in on the rudder controversy once ("Using a rudder and other unmanly acts") and I'm hardly the expert on the numerous kayak models that Matt is and I certainly respect his opinions and the many hours he's put in behind the... um... front of the cockpit (ok, maybe that metaphore doesn't work so well; you get the idea). But I think some of his responses are arguable. So while I'm hardly the legendary paddler Matt is (that's never stopped me before) I'll argue the ones I think I have enough competence to argue. First a caveat: the vagaries of Google Mail's editing has caused a couple of my most brilliantly argued points to disappear into the great bit-bucket in the sky. Unfortunately, I'm not quite brilliant enough to remember what I said. So I did the best I could. On 6/24/07, Matt Broze <marinerkayaks_at_msn.com> wrote: > > > Your efficiency point is arguable since rudders themselves cause > additional > drag just being in the water so they need to make up for more than they > loose (with increased control of direction with less effort used--which > may > or may not be the case depending on many other factors, the kayak's design > being a major one of those). At least one record-holding long-distance paddler (Paul Caffyn - Google his name for those who haven't run across his exploits before) has kept records to indicate that he covers more water in less time with a rudder (a deep rudder) than in a boat with no rudder at all. Or, for that matter, in a boat with a skeg. This, all by itself, is a powerful argument for using a rudder. 1)Less fatigue. Loose or spongy foot pedals diminish the power of your stroke in those systems where the rudder pedal slides (because of the reduction in being able to use thigh and calf muscles to help share the load). Where the pedals work like gas pedals just the calf muscles are mostly lost for sharing the hull drag load among your muscle groups. I have never used "gas pedal" rudder controls (except on airplanes) but my rudders are operated by my tippy-toes while my heels stay firmly planted against the cockpit sole and my knees are against the foam pads under the cockpit coaming. This position allows me to use my stomach and thigh muscles (much like having a friend sit on your legs during sit-ups) while I paddle. Is this less efficient than making multiple consecutive correction strokes or putting more energy into a stroke on one side of the boat while edging? I don't believe so. 2)Possible injury during carrying, in camp or at sea (sharp edges and corners can create difficulties especially during rescues. One person I'm aware of grabbed the cable to try to stop his kayak from getting away from him in small surf and the cable cut his hand to the bone. I think that this would be a valid point. Whether it's a significant problem I don't know. Perhaps Rob Gibbert or Mike or some of the other rescue experts can comment. 3)A more jerky ride as the flat rudder surface is batted sideways by wave > crests in steep cross-chop. While it's possible that this could happen, I'm not sure you'd notice any difference in ride as in these conditions the kayak is going to be pretty heavily batted around anyway. And I believe that the reduction in fatigue by being able to hold a heading without the necessity of taking many consecutive strokes on one side or increasing the effort required to change the boat's heading by paddle alone make up for it. > 4)The rudder can trip you as it reenters the water during a broach > especially if you try to correct the broach by using the rudder > (straightening your down wave leg off its thigh brace as is common the way > almost all rudder systems set up--with uncrossed cables). Using only a paddle to correct the often huge turning forces in a broach can result in a paddler "tripping" over their own paddle and capsizing at just the wrong time. Every system has potential drawbacks. 5)Broken rudders, cables, corrosion, and wear mean far more maintenance is > required. A rudder dependent paddler can suddenly go "cold turkey" in > extreme conditions if the rudder fails. Or much worse, imagine your rudder > stuck down and hard over to one side during a rough solo crossing. I once > won a kayak race partly because a paddler in a faster kayak had this > happen > to him during the sprint at the start. After that he could only go in > circles. I think that "far more maintenance" is an overstatement. "Some" more maintenance, sure. But rudder maintenance has been, at least for me, minimal. In addition I cannot see the usefulness in foregoing all the advantages of having the choice between a rudder and no-rudder just to satisfy some remote possibility of a problem. It's like advocating the removal of the brake system from a car because dragging one's feet works and there is less to go wrong. > 6)During Sea Kayaker magazine's tank tests a kayak rudder added 10% more > drag (at 3 knots) on both of two separate runs. Even if the added isn't > nearly this high with more modern rudders, the added drag would be a good > reason to use it as little as possible. Once again, whether the added drag (and, admittedly, there has to be some) of a rudder is worse than the numerous correction strokes that are taken without a rudder is a matter of conjecture. Balanced against the increased risk of shoulder injuries because of the added paddling effort of making those correction strokes, I'll take the rudder, thanks. 7)Due to the toggle's location the hull usually bangs against your leg when > carrying the stern. Changing tired hands on the toggle often means a > choice > between risking back or groin injury or putting the clean (wet) hull down > in > the sand. Carrying a kayak by its toggle is not always a good idea. I wrap a nice thick webbing strap around the stern of my Nimbus Telkwa and use that. Or I carry the stern from the bottom of the hull so I'm positioned to lift it over obstacles. > 8)Slower turns while moving because you straighten your knee to push the > rudder pedal rather than lifting that knee to tilt the kayak. In testing > over 500 North American kayaks leaned just short of putting the cockpit > underwater I turned them in an average of 11.3 sec though 180 degrees. > Keeping the kayaks level I averaged just over 19 seconds for the same > turn. Well, first of all, my rudder pedals are operated by my toes with my heels planted against the cockpit floor and my knees firmly in touch with the pads glued to the underside of my kayak's deck so I don't "straighten" my leg to turn. Secondly, I suppose it's likely that kayaks can turn faster while heavily edged than on the flat. How many paddlers edge just short of putting the cockpit underwater? That has to be a pretty low number. And, of course, no law says you cannot use both the rudder *and* edging to make a turn. I wonder if Matt measured that. Even so, most of us use a rudder as a device to reduce course corrections and to keep a constant paddling cadence. Under these circumstances it's not likely that large turns would be necessary. 9)Slower spins because of the rudder's drag and often inability to move > nearly 90 degrees from straight back (the average of 225 tests was 25% > slower with the rudder down than up.) Again, no law says you cannot use both an edge and the rudder simultaneously. And there is no rule that you cannot retract the rudder when you want to. Certainly there are times when having the rudder up is preferable. Just as there are times when having a rudder is helpful. Choice is a wonderful thing. 10)Fouling of towing or fishing lines. I think both of these can be mitigated but I will admit that it's more of a problem on a boat with a rudder than on one without one. I'll give Matt 1/2 point on this pending remarks from those more familiar with rescue or fishing. > 11)A rudder aggravates weatherhelm by adding windage at the stern. If this is happening then the fix is simple: deploy the rudder and, viola!, the problem disappears. But what happens if you are in a rudderless kayak that you (or your guide) has mis-loaded and has weatherhelm? Live with it and the increased risk of shoulder injury caused by all those repetitive correction strokes on one side of the boat until you can unload and re-load the boat properly? Heck, I'll take the rudder, thanks. (Author's note: Violas are more fun than voilas.) 12)Correcting weatherhelm with a rudder adds considerably more paddling > resistance because you must angle the rudder to go straight. This is > equivalent of dragging a stick in the water as wide as the area the angled > blade sweeps out to control the weather tendency of the boat. This assumes that the boat would track straight under the same conditions if it had no rudder. Not all - dare I say, not many? - kayaks have this characteristic and almost no kayak has it under all load and wind conditions. One way to change weather helm problems is pack the boat differently, take gear off the deck (especially the rear deck). And, with a rudder, deploy the rudder. But, again, is it more efficient to have to make many paddle strokes with only one blade of a two-blade paddle? I don't think so. 13)Backing up, the rudder blade has a strong tendency to flop to one side or > the other. (You might also be stopped or tangled more by seaweed as well). Um.... pull the rudder up when you back up if this is a problem. As for weed, my rudder clears itself of weed when I retract it anyway. But when I'm paddling in weed (generally in rocky areas or very close to shore, I keep the rudder retracted. I think weeds on my paddle blades are a worse problem than weeds on the rudder, anyway, as they can "grab" the paddle unexpectedly and create a "tippy" moment. 14)Rudders have been hit by sharks. Some have speculated that the motion (or > vibrations from the rudder) acts as a lure to them. Hmm... sea serpents might be a problem too. Another half point. :) 15)Rudders take time to work and the delay in feedback that delay causes > often results in over control and zig-zagging. There is also less fine and > precise control when using a pedal/cables/rudder system. I've found it is > far more difficult to thread through a tight place with rudder control > than > by using paddle and lean control alone. If it's Matt's contention that one does more zig-zagging with a rudder than without one then I have to say that this has not been my experience. And, once more, I have to say that using *both* the rudder *and* edging I think I can turn faster. Even so, I can always retract the rudder and thread through a tight place festooned with weeds. And what about the asymmetrical hull problem. I've owned a couple of kayaks that had a natural tendency to turn in one direction over the other. I even fastened a small trim-tab to the stern of one of them to alleviate this annoying tendency. Now, I suppose it's arguable that my butt is not symmetrical and that was the problem all along, but I think a rudder would have helped. > 16)It gets in the way of learning other means of controlling the > difficulties that it can help correct and often creates a depencency on > the > one part of the paddle/kayak/paddler system most likely to fail. And the > rudder is most likely to fail at the times it is most needed by the rudder > dependant rudderer/paddler (in rough and windy conditions when it is being > put under the most stress). This point is the one most often made in defense of having a kayak without a rudder and I'm not at all sure it's true. That somehow no one can figure out how to turn a kayak without using the rudder. This weekend I put a 6-year-old girl into an 11-foot Loon and let her paddle away from the dock all on her own. When it came time to turn back I just yelled, "Paddle on only one side until you're turned around." Amazingly, she followed those simple instructions and a few minutes later bumped the nose of her kayak into the dock. In a 15mph wind, too. Then she went right back out. If a 6-yr-old can almost instantaneously grasp the method of turning a kayak without a rudder then I'm pretty sure an adult can too. In conclusion I have to say that I'd never insist that anyone put a rudder on their boat if they didn't want one; after all, some of my best friends paddle in boats without rudders. And while Matt Broze is a fine paddler, a remarkable designer, and a living library of facts on virtually every sea kayak built he is, like all of us, not without his prejudices. And I think that rudders are one of them. The bottom line is effort and energy. There is no arguing the fact that a rudder in the water adds drag and even more drag while creating a turning moment. These can be measured, more or less, using instrumentation but the mere act of measuring can, like quantum mechanics, alter the results. There is also no arguing the fact that one must expend extra energy to turn a kayak without a rudder; one either has to make several consecutive strokes on one side of the boat or edge the boat and add some effort to the appropriate stroke. The energy thus expended is almost impossible to measure and, again, any such measurement would almost certain affect the results. Does making three consecutive strokes on one side of the kayak to turn XX degrees result in the expenditure of less energy than pushing a rudder pedal and having it move the stern? This is the crux of the argument and every paddler has to determine his or her own answer and live with it (until they buy the next kayak, anyway). Does the increased shoulder pain of a few of my no-rudder pals reflect the increased efforts in turning or holding a steady course or is it just the inevitable consequences of aging? I don't know. I don't know of any way to find out. But I'm older than all of them and my shoulders are just fine, thanks. <grin> So now, having defended rudders against Matt, I'll admit that Matt's prejudice (or at least insistence) against rudders led him to design and sell kayaks that perform superbly without them. If I had a Mariner (and I just missed buying an XL last week) I would never put a rudder on it. But for long trips in a heavily-loaded boat I'll take my Nimbus Telkwa with its rudder and use that rudder guilt-free. And if the rudder breaks I'll muscle on cuz a 6-yr-old showed me how to turn. :) Craig Jungers Royal City, WA *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. 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Craig Jungers [mailto:crjungers_at_gmail.com] >>>>>>answered my diatribe<<<<<<<< my comments are below his when I disagree. >>>>I've already weighed in on the rudder controversy once ("Using a rudder and other unmanly acts") and I'm hardly the expert on the numerous kayak models that Matt is and I certainly respect his opinions and the many hours he's put in behind the... um... front of the cockpit (ok, maybe that metaphore doesn't work so well; you get the idea). But I think some of his responses are arguable. So while I'm hardly the legendary paddler Matt is (that's never stopped me before) I'll argue the ones I think I have enough competence to argue. <<<<<<<< First let me say that Im fine letting anyone choose if they want to use a rudder or not. I dislike them and I stated my reasons for not liking them (although personally I dont worry about sharks either way). Some kayaks absolutely need a rudder so Im certainly not arguing that someone with such a kayak forgo the rudder. They should however inspect it well before putting themselves in a position where they would be in a bad way without it. Other kayaks need rudders some of the time but not often and a with few kayaks they are so little of an advantage at any time that their negatives far outweigh the advantages for me. Those are the kayaks I prefer to paddle because Id prefer not to have to fight the kayak or deal with the things I dont like about most rudder systems. Craig mentions he paddles with a Telkwa. I think the Telkwa is a remarkable design and one of the best boats available for large paddlers. Nimbus has done a very good job with the rudder in many respects. In fact, when I had a store I sold Nimbus kayaks as well as my own and a few others that I also found to be great kayaks or were very good kayaks and an especially good value. The Telkwa has a pretty good lean-to-turn response at least for someone large enough to easily lean the kayak when it is gear laden. Ive not used one with a heavy gear load but I certainly didnt need a rudder with empty it as it both tracked well and responded so well to a lean that was all it took to compensate for what little weatherhelm it had (even with the rudder blade up catching the wind aggravating the weatherhelm). Of the 950+ kayaks Ive tested and timed so far the Telkwa had the largest ratio of difference in how fast it could be turned with a strong lean to how slow it turned when I held it level throughout the turn. I could turn it over three times as fast by leaning it. I like to see at least twice as fast leaned to level turning ratio in a sea kayak. That 2 to 1 ratio usually results in a kayak that turns relatively quickly when leaned but has no trouble with tracking (in calm water anyway--no matter what the raw numbers arein other words short kayaks can track as well or better than long kayaks and usually also have the added advantage of greater maneuverability which can help one more easily stay on a course). So if Craig is a larger paddler Id say he has made a very good choice in sea kayaks with the Telkwa. >>>>>>>>At least one record-holding long-distance paddler (Paul Caffyn - Google his name for those who haven't run across his exploits before) has kept records to indicate that he covers more water in less time with a rudder (a deep rudder) than in a boat with no rudder at all. Or, for that matter, in a boat with a skeg. This, all by itself, is a powerful argument for using a rudder. <<<<<<<<<<<<<< The Nordkapp HS that Paul used has a fairly strong weatherhelm (the HM version can be very hard to turn when at speed (so making corrections while on the wave to prevent a broach is nearly impossiblein my experience with the HM especially the result is a long carved broach off the wave that doesnt end until the boat is nearly perpendicular to the wave direction or the wave passes the boat). Id say adding a rudder to the Nordkapp HS was a good solution for Paul and I have no doubt that he did indeed make better time with a rudder than without. I should note that Pauls rudder was about twice as long as rudders normally found on sea kayaks because without the extra length Paul would have suffered much more in steep following seas where the rudder often doesnt reach the water as the stern is liftedand if the waves are steep lifts the rudder blade from the water just when it is needed most. I dont know what Paul used for foot pedals but if they werent solid Ill bet he would have been faster still if they were solid 1)Less fatigue. Loose or spongy foot pedals diminish the power of your stroke in those systems where the rudder pedal slides (because of the reduction in being able to use thigh and calf muscles to help share the load). Where the pedals work like gas pedals just the calf muscles are mostly lost for sharing the hull drag load among your muscle groups. >>>>>I have never used "gas pedal" rudder controls (except on airplanes) but my rudders are operated by my tippy-toes while my heels stay firmly planted against the cockpit sole and my knees are against the foam pads under the cockpit coaming. This position allows me to use my stomach and thigh muscles (much like having a friend sit on your legs during sit-ups) while I paddle. Is this less efficient than making multiple consecutive correction strokes or putting more energy into a stroke on one side of the boat while edging? I don't believe so. <<<<<<< Yes I think it is less efficient. When I paddle my knees and thighs are rarely in contact with the boat. Im straightening the leg on the stroke side and pushing on the ball of my foot on a firm pedal. This means Im using my calf muscles and quads to help power the kayak by using them to rotate my torso. That is why I hate sliding rudder pedals or even foot pedals that are too spongy (like yours still are when the rudder is up). Loose or soft pedals steal energy from my stroke. I cant see how you are using your thighs in the stroke if they are locked into place pressed under the deck. I always thought locking one knees in place was a novice mistake that often quickly resulted in a numb lower body. Ive corrected this tendency in many whose lower body went to sleep when paddling. I have learned to expect that is what the paddle maybe doing when I see someone who looks like they should be a far stronger paddler than they are performing in the group even though with a spray deck on I cant see what they are doing with their legs. I was surprised to learn that many instructors, including Lee Moyer, advocated always having the knees up against the deck. Most paddlers who started out paddling WW hate most rudder systems precisely because of the loss of their leg power in the stroke. Those who start kayaking using a rudder rarely find out what they are missing in the bargain. Contrary to Pauls experience, I always did better in kayak races when the water got rougher. In fact, I could still draft stronger paddlers in rough water but those with rudders didnt have the same fine control I had and could rarely stay right on my stern. I recall one who tried commenting afterwards on how he couldnt believe how straight I was going in the waves without a rudder when he couldnt go nearly that straight using his rudder. I only have to take one foot off my solid foot pedals while paddling to tell the difference using my legs to help power the kayak makes. I start to go in a circle towards the side where my foot is off the pedal. Using most rudders systems is like having both feet off the pedals. 3) A more jerky ride as the flat rudder surface is batted sideways by wave crests in steep cross-chop. >>>>>>>>>While it's possible that this could happen, I'm not sure you'd notice any difference in ride as in these conditions the kayak is going to be pretty heavily batted around anyway. And I believe that the reduction in fatigue by being able to hold a heading without the necessity of taking many consecutive strokes on one side or increasing the effort required to change the boat's heading by paddle alone make up for it.<<<<<<<<<<< It would be less noticeable if the kayak itself also has flat vertical surfaces or fins to be batted around. The boats I paddle have flared surfaces at the bow and stern so those side waves lift the ends some rather than jerk it around sideways as much. A rudder changes that dynamic at the stern for me and it feels like the waves have a hold of the back of my kayak and are jerking be around. BTW, I almost never take even two consecutive strokes on the same side when paddling a straight course in even rough conditions. Usually a slight shift in my weight is all I need to make course corrections. Rocking side to side is very easy to do while paddling (some do it with every stroke naturally, but they should try to learn keep the boat level for best efficiency in calm water). For those who would like more information on what I do to save energy while staying on course go to the Paddling manual on our www.marinerkayaks.com <http://www.marinerkayaks.com/> website (in the Manuals menu) and start with Getting to know Your Kayak about half way into that file, especially if you are new to paddling or have been paddling with the aid of a rudder in the past. Those who are expert without a rudder already might still pick up some tips from the next several sections. 4)The rudder can trip you as it reenters the water during a broach especially if you try to correct the broach by using the rudder (straightening your down wave leg off its thigh brace as is common the way almost all rudder systems set up--with uncrossed cables). >>>>>>>>Using only a paddle to correct the often huge turning forces in a broach can result in a paddler "tripping" over their own paddle and capsizing at just the wrong time. Every system has potential drawbacks. <<<<<<<< Yes, I learned that lesson my second time in a kayak. I was surfing whitecaps coming into a beach and thought using the paddle down wave might stop the broaching. Instead it almost tripped me over as the boat ran into the paddle. Why I didnt learn it on that first try when I almost capsized? I dont know. The second try could have killed me as after tripping over the paddle and capsizing I almost stayed stuck by the new (to me) unfamiliar spraydeck after the resulting capsize. I dont think I ever did it again that I can recall anyhow. My point is that with most (sliding pedal) rudder systems if you push the down wave pedal forward in order to point the bow back down the wave you loosen the grip on the down wave side of the kayak with your knee and when the rudder trips you upon reentering the water you dont have your knee giving you a firm grip to prevent the kayak from capsizing by leaning it into the wave. Of course, if both your knees always stay jammed up against the deck like you say yours do that might not be a problem for you. Crossing the rudder cables solved the problem for me and felt more natural to me as well. Of course, I havent spent enough time piloting an airplane to have reflexively wanted to use the pedals the other way. Surprising, piloting a small plane seemed very natural to me when I first did it years ago. So much so, I would have thought I must have been a pilot in a past life (if I believed in such things). 5)Broken rudders, cables, corrosion, and wear mean far more maintenance is required. A rudder dependent paddler can suddenly go "cold turkey" in extreme conditions if the rudder fails. Or much worse, imagine your rudder stuck down and hard over to one side during a rough solo crossing. I once won a kayak race partly because a paddler in a faster kayak had this happen to him during the sprint at the start. After that he could only go in circles. >>>>>>>>>>I think that "far more maintenance" is an overstatement. "Some" more maintenance, sure. But rudder maintenance has been, at least for me, minimal. In addition I cannot see the usefulness in foregoing all the advantages of having the choice between a rudder and no-rudder just to satisfy some remote possibility of a problem. It's like advocating the removal of the brake system from a car because dragging one's feet works and there is less to go wrong. <<<<<<<<< Some maintenance is FAR more than no maintenance. Nimbus has done several things to minimize rudder problems and even modified the Feathercraft rudder with the Big Wheel for years before they talked Feathercraft into making all their rudders that way so they didnt have to have the Big Wheels machined any longer. Notice the little tubing the cable runs into right near where your rudder cables connect to the rudder. That helps keep the flexing more evenly distributed so the cable doesnt work harden right near the attachment point as readily. Certainly some rudders are better than others in this respect and others. I would have liked Nimbus to use the much heavier cable that we used and had Seda Kayaks use. One Seda Double spent four years in regular rental use at NWOC on the original heavy duty (3/32 rather than 1/16) cables that have 2.5 times as many strands. Rudder cable repairs are a constant problem for them with most rudders systems. Id estimate Ive seen at least two dozen instances of fail rudders with folks that I was paddling with at the time. Lee Moyer told me that he had more trouble with damage to adjustable skegs than he had with rudders. That was my retail experience too but my sample size was so small and all of one brand of adjustable skeg boat I carried had a problem (even though Id ordered most of them without the skegs) so I didnt think I could take my experience as representative of all adjustable skegs. Id still rather paddle with the sold foot pedals of an adjustable skeg rather than a rudder hanging off the kayaks stern though. 6)During Sea Kayaker magazine's tank tests a kayak rudder added 10% more drag (at 3 knots) on both of two separate runs. Even if the added isn't nearly this high with more modern rudders, the added drag would be a good reason to use it as little as possible. >>>>>>>>Once again, whether the added drag (and, admittedly, there has to be some) of a rudder is worse than the numerous correction strokes that are taken without a rudder is a matter of conjecture. Balanced against the increased risk of shoulder injuries because of the added paddling effort of making those correction strokes, I'll take the rudder, thanks.<<<<<<<< Once again, I hardly ever paddle harder on one side than the other to keep on a course, even in difficult conditions. Yes, I had to teach myself several tricks to do so because I didnt want to put up with the problems that a rudder added to my paddling. The tricks I know Im doing I have listed on our website (for free) for anyone who wants to try them out. There may be several other things I do, that Im unaware of, that work for me. Your body will learn to become efficient if you paddle in rough conditions without a rudder to guide you and are willing to experiment a little. You may surprise yourself how much better you can get fairly quickly if you struggle for a bit in difficult condition (in a safe place) without resorting to the rudder. 7)Due to the toggle's location the hull usually bangs against your leg when carrying the stern. Changing tired hands on the toggle often means a choice between risking back or groin injury or putting the clean (wet) hull down in the sand. >>>>>>>>Carrying a kayak by its toggle is not always a good idea. I wrap a nice thick webbing strap around the stern of my Nimbus Telkwa and use that. Or I carry the stern from the bottom of the hull so I'm positioned to lift it over obstacles.<<<<<<<<< The Telkwa has a relatively long fine stern that makes the carries you use (and even using the toggle) a lot easier with it than with a lot of kayaks including ours. The rudder on the Telkwa is still a problem if you want to switch sides without getting the bottom sandy before putting it on your car. Most rudder users learn to grab the front and leave their poor helper to deal with the rudder end. I dont often let them get away with this. I figure if they want the advantages of the thing they need to suffer the pain from it rather than foisting it off on me. 8)Slower turns while moving because you straighten your knee to push the rudder pedal rather than lifting that knee to tilt the kayak. In testing over 500 North American kayaks leaned just short of putting the cockpit underwater I turned them in an average of 11.3 sec though 180 degrees. Keeping the kayaks level I averaged just over 19 seconds for the same turn. >>>>>>>>>Well, first of all, my rudder pedals are operated by my toes with my heels planted against the cockpit floor and my knees firmly in touch with the pads glued to the underside of my kayak's deck so I don't "straighten" my leg to turn. Secondly, I suppose it's likely that kayaks can turn faster while heavily edged than on the flat. How many paddlers edge just short of putting the cockpit underwater? That has to be a pretty low number. And, of course, no law says you cannot use both the rudder *and* edging to make a turn. I wonder if Matt measured that. Even so, most of us use a rudder as a device to reduce course corrections and to keep a constant paddling cadence. Under these circumstances it's not likely that large turns would be necessary.<<<<<<<<<<< Perhaps this is an advantage to having your knees always in contact with the underside of the deck. Yes I do time the turn with the rudder and a lean. I lean as far as I dare go in that situation (but no more than where the cockpit would take on water if I didnt have a spraydeck on. I set that as my limit because sometimes I dont have a spraydeck to fit the cockpit of the boat Im testing. With good knee braces I could turn most boats faster still if I leaned even more but Im trying to be consistent. If the knee bracing situation is poor I lean the kayak as far as I dare. With a rudder and reasonable knee bracing I can usually lean the boat with the rudder turned to its maximum to the limits I artificially set in order to be consistent even without a sprayskirt on. To do this with a rudder I must point my toes as much as I can while at the same time lifting my leg to grip the cockpit edge with my knee. It is a pain and sometimes results in leg cramps for me but I do it in the name of science and the consistency in the test results if I can. If I cant, I lean the kayak as far as I dare without risking a serious chance of capsize. In most cases the rudder and lean together turns the boat in about the same time as without it. When there is a difference it is more likely that the rudder slows the turn slightly. In a few cases the turn is faster with the rudder. This is usually on very quick turning kayaks when the rudder can be angled over especially far. Rarely is a spin in place as fast with the rudder down though. Most likely, if you cant turn a kayak as fast without the rudder as when using the rudder you need to practice turning more without the rudder to improve that skill. 9)Slower spins because of the rudder's drag and often inability to move nearly 90 degrees from straight back (the average of 225 tests was 25% slower with the rudder down than up.) >>>>>>>>>Again, no law says you cannot use both an edge and the rudder simultaneously. And there is no rule that you cannot retract the rudder when you want to. Certainly there are times when having the rudder up is preferable. Just as there are times when having a rudder is helpful. Choice is a wonderful thing.<<<<<<< The times Im referring to were all with the kayak tilted. The times are usually much slower when I dont edge the kayak (which is also a test I do. For instance with the Std. Telkwa my times in seconds were: 360 degree spin: leaned w/o rudder 22sec, leaned w/rudder 29 sec., held level w/o rudder 27 sec., 180 degree turn at speed: leaned w/o rudder 9 sec., leaned w/rudder 12 sec., level w/o rudder 28 sec.. If yours is the Telkwa Sport model, my times (in the same order) were 23, 27, 29, 10, 11, 29. You might time yourself the next time you paddle. For the 180 I use distant landmarks or the sun and its shadow (of my head on the deck) for my reference points. I weigh about 190 pounds. If you are in the same weight range you should get similar times. If you are faster you are better at it than me or lighter weight. If much slower (and you are not a lot heavier) you should practice this more. A fast turn can come in handy at times. Turning a long kayak into strong winds is one of those times. 11)A rudder aggravates weatherhelm by adding windage at the stern. >>>>>>>>If this is happening then the fix is simple: deploy the rudder and, viola!, the problem disappears. But what happens if you are in a rudderless kayak that you (or your guide) has mis-loaded and has weatherhelm? Live with it and the increased risk of shoulder injury caused by all those repetitive correction strokes on one side of the boat until you can unload and re-load the boat properly? Heck, I'll take the rudder, thanks. (Author's note: Violas are more fun than voilas.)<<<<<<< Just use the techniques in the Paddling manual to compensate and remember to pay a little more attention to getting as much of your gear as possible weight into the rear next time (and check the side to side trim is level before starting out. If the loaded boat doesnt float level before I get in it I shift a 2 liter (soda) bottle of water or two from one side to the other. Remember even with the rudder the stronger the weatherhelm the more drag the rudder will cause by being angled over more to correct it so even rudder paddlers should be trying to minimize weatherhelm in their kayaks. 12)Correcting weatherhelm with a rudder adds considerably more paddling resistance because you must angle the rudder to go straight. This is equivalent of dragging a stick in the water as wide as the area the angled blade sweeps out to control the weather tendency of the boat. >>>>>>>>This assumes that the boat would track straight under the same conditions if it had no rudder. Not all - dare I say, not many? - kayaks have this characteristic and almost no kayak has it under all load and wind conditions. One way to change weather helm problems is pack the boat differently, take gear off the deck (especially the rear deck). And, with a rudder, deploy the rudder. But, again, is it more efficient to have to make many paddle strokes with only one blade of a two-blade paddle? I don't think so. <<<<<<<<<< I agree, but again there are so many ways to correct for weatherhelm while paddling before having to make more strokes on one side than the other (see Paddling manual for those techniques I know). Either with or without the rudder the more neutral the kayak is when paddling forward the easier it is going to be to keep the kayak on course. Some kayaks weatherhelm so bad that a rudder is almost an essential. Others, and you are right they are few in number, remain so neutral you rarely have to fight with them to keep a course reasonably close to the way you want to go. With those, the drag of the rudder in the water is a net loss but it the windage on the rudder is making it weatherhelm then putting it in the water to correct that is a loss over not having put a stored rudder back there with its blade flat to the wind in the first place. 13)Backing up, the rudder blade has a strong tendency to flop to one side or the other. (You might also be stopped or tangled more by seaweed as well). >>>>>>>Um.... pull the rudder up when you back up if this is a problem. As for weed, my rudder clears itself of weed when I retract it anyway. But when I'm paddling in weed (generally in rocky areas or very close to shore, I keep the rudder retracted. I think weeds on my paddle blades are a worse problem than weeds on the rudder, anyway, as they can "grab" the paddle unexpectedly and create a "tippy" moment.<<<<<<<<<< I know folks who had the swell lift kelp on to their back deck and had the rudder make it very difficult for them to get it off again. Your Telkwa kayak has a great stern shape for backing out of kelp (if you can move forward enough to lift the rudder up out of it anyway). Those with more squared off sterns tend not be able to go backward in kelp even with the rudder up. Some bows are so plumb and deep it is even a problem going forward in kelp because they dont slide up and over it well. If the weeds effected the paddle blades of the non rudder paddler more than the rudder paddler you would have a point but I think both need to use the paddle. In those conditions I try to pull the paddle out right where it went into the water and I try to pick the most weed free spots to plant the paddle if only to be able to bury the blade in the water easier. 15)Rudders take time to work and the delay in feedback that delay causes often results in over control and zig-zagging. There is also less fine and precise control when using a pedal/cables/rudder system. I've found it is far more difficult to thread through a tight place with rudder control than by using paddle and lean control alone. >>>>>>>>If it's Matt's contention that one does more zig-zagging with a rudder than without one then I have to say that this has not been my experience. And, once more, I have to say that using *both* the rudder *and* edging I think I can turn faster. Even so, I can always retract the rudder and thread through a tight place festooned with weeds. And what about the asymmetrical hull problem. I've owned a couple of kayaks that had a natural tendency to turn in one direction over the other. I even fastened a small trim-tab to the stern of one of them to alleviate this annoying tendency. Now, I suppose it's arguable that my butt is not symmetrical and that was the problem all along, but I think a rudder would have helped. <<<<<<<<< This is worse with kayaks that are quite squirrelly and tend to skid at the sterns. The rudder is needed to keep them going straight at all. Ill bet you I can thread a narrower (relative to your kayaks width) slot without hitting anything at high speed without a rudder than either you (or I) can with the rudder down. There are some slalom gates at the U of W Arboretum here in Seattle which are a good place to practice and where a miss is of little consequence. With a paddle and leaning I can thread a gate that gives me less than an inch on each side. I might be able to do that with a rudder in the water to if I didnt use it at all. However, if I quit paddling before reaching the gate and just used the rudder for control then the gate would have to be much wider apart to get cleanly through it consistently. With the original version of the Eddyline Orca (before the 2 to 3 inch deep keel was added to it) I had so little control with the rudder I slowed down before going through some highway pillars that were about eight feet apart. I was embarrassed because I still hit one of the pillars in a borrowed kayak. Your kayak tracks very well and turns well with a lean too. Since the rudder doesnt kick the stern over that fast there is less overcontrolling with a kayak like yours than a more maneuverable one. 16)It gets in the way of learning other means of controlling the difficulties that it can help correct and often creates a depencency on the one part of the paddle/kayak/paddler system most likely to fail. And the rudder is most likely to fail at the times it is most needed by the rudder dependant rudderer/paddler (in rough and windy conditions when it is being put under the most stress). >>>>>>>>>This point is the one most often made in defense of having a kayak without a rudder and I'm not at all sure it's true. That somehow no one can figure out how to turn a kayak without using the rudder. This weekend I put a 6-year-old girl into an 11-foot Loon and let her paddle away from the dock all on her own. When it came time to turn back I just yelled, "Paddle on only one side until you're turned around." Amazingly, she followed those simple instructions and a few minutes later bumped the nose of her kayak into the dock. In a 15mph wind, too. Then she went right back out. If a 6-yr-old can almost instantaneously grasp the method of turning a kayak without a rudder then I'm pretty sure an adult can too.<<<<<<<<<< Not nearly as well as someone who is well practiced in a wide variety of conditions and is in a kayak that handles well without resorting to a rudder. Some boats are dependent on their rudders even when paddled by someone well practiced at not using a rudder. Some paddlers who were good paddlers in good kayaks but put a rudder on them anyway have lost the edge they once had and when the rudder later broke they didnt have nearly the skills paddling without one they once had. This happened to a very good paddler from Norway I knew (and had paddled with in some extreme winds on the West Coast of Vancouver Island before he installed his ingenious rudder that even worked with his sliding seat after he returned to Norway). I heard the story of when the rudder broke from another paddler I knew who was visiting him in Norway and paddling with him when it happened. Use it or loose it might be applicable here. His original Mariner kayak that he took back to Norway became the basis for the kayak built in Europe known as the Svalbard. When a long time kayak builder from Sweden visited my shop he insisted that the Mariner II he saw on our shelf was a copy of the Svalbard. I asked him if the Svalbard had been around since 1986 like the Mariner II had. Ingvar later sent me a brochure on the Svalbard. Not only did it look very similar but the deck rigging on it was virtually identical. I asked my friend in Norway about it and he said he had told the designer he should take a very close look at his Mariner kayak before designing his own. Apparently he did. He even made some of the same changes to it that we had made to the original Mariner to make the Mariner II. >>>>>>>>In conclusion I have to say that I'd never insist that anyone put a rudder on their boat if they didn't want one; after all, some of my best friends paddle in boats without rudders. And while Matt Broze is a fine paddler, a remarkable designer, and a living library of facts on virtually every sea kayak built he is, like all of us, not without his prejudices. And I think that rudders are one of them. <<<<<<<< I couldnt agree more. To each his own. I only wanted to answer Jerrys Why not? argument. For me there are a lot of reasons that many rudder users never consider or even realize might be effecting them. Im for everyone making their own choice in the matter. To me there is something much more satisfying about controlling a kayak with body English than working the puppet blade on the back of the kayak with strings and toe movements. Ive likened the difference to putting little rudders on skis to turn them. (running wires up the legs in order to control them with your hands. But with skiing as with kayaking if you dont need the complications added by a rudder why put up with it on your equipment. >>>>>>>>>The bottom line is effort and energy. There is no arguing the fact that a rudder in the water adds drag and even more drag while creating a turning moment. These can be measured, more or less, using instrumentation but the mere act of measuring can, like quantum mechanics, alter the results. There is also no arguing the fact that one must expend extra energy to turn a kayak without a rudder; one either has to make several consecutive strokes on one side of the boat or edge the boat and add some effort to the appropriate stroke. The energy thus expended is almost impossible to measure and, again, any such measurement would almost certain affect the results. Does making three consecutive strokes on one side of the kayak to turn XX degrees result in the expenditure of less energy than pushing a rudder pedal and having it move the stern? This is the crux of the argument and every paddler has to determine his or her own answer and live with it (until they buy the next kayak, anyway). Does the increased shoulder pain of a few of my no-rudder pals reflect the increased efforts in turning or holding a steady course or is it just the inevitable consequences of aging? I don't know. I don't know of any way to find out. But I'm older than all of them and my shoulders are just fine, thanks. <grin> So now, having defended rudders against Matt, I'll admit that Matt's prejudice (or at least insistence) against rudders led him to design and sell kayaks that perform superbly without them. If I had a Mariner (and I just missed buying an XL last week) I would never put a rudder on it. But for long trips in a heavily-loaded boat I'll take my Nimbus Telkwa with its rudder and use that rudder guilt-free. And if the rudder breaks I'll muscle on cuz a 6-yr-old showed me how to turn. :) <<<<<<<<<< Ill be happy to argue the fact that one must expend extra energy to turn a kayak without a rudder if you mean more than when using a rudder that extra in that sentence seems to imply. The only time I make several consecutive strokes on the same side is when I want to turn a moving kayak as quickly as possible. Rocking a reasonably tippy kayak from one side to other is virtually effortless when also swinging a paddle and arms around and that is usually all I need to do to control my kayaks under all but the most difficult of conditions. In those more difficult conditions a little bit of stern draw at the end of the stoke on the side Im rocking the kayak towards usually takes care of that and adds more power to the turn/course correction helped by rocking. Yes, in some kayaks I have to go further down my list and do the things that require progressively more energy. How far down the list depends on the tendencies and the lean-to-turn ability of those particular kayaks (or with say a heavy gear load in a wide stable kayak that becomes more work to get it to lean). I hate having to paddle using one side harder than the other. It was just such experiences with the kayaks we then owned that got us thinking about how we could modify our kayaks to get rid of those tendencies and still keep the solid foot pedals we didnt want to give up. Those discussions progressed into what we would do if we designed our own kayaks to correct the things we didnt like about the kayaks we were paddling. That lead to studying the other aspects of hull design to make the kayaks move as easy as possible through the water and have a sea kindly hull in waves. You see I am basically lazy. It is astonishing that some people think that paddlers who dont use a rudder have some macho need to be independent of the things and therefore feel they have to justify their using a rudder. Much of the skills in paddling strokes are to increase ones efficiency. This is especially important to a racer. If I could have been faster by using a rudder I would have done it in my racing days. Im sixty-one and so far my shoulders are still fine. Id be the first to admit that a six year old might make an excellent paddling skills role model. I usually learn much better when playing, goofing around and experimenting. Far better than I do from listening to and believing the predjudices of someone certified and tested by the further certified instructor trainers who got there first and institutionalized their own prejudices and are still passing them down the chain of command no matter how irrelevant they have become. Instruction cant hold a candle to play when it comes to learning. School systems make one stiff and self-conscious. Those are about the last things one needs to be when learning physical skills. If I had a six year old again I would endeavor to keep her away from institutions with teachers as long as possible. Sit still and fold your hands in front of you. All rise for the flag salute. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. 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Matt said (massive snip): > Craig Jungers [mailto:crjungers_at_gmail.com] >>>>>>answered my > diatribe<<<<<<<< my comments are below his when I disagree. Thanks for taking the time from your somewhat retired life to state your rudder reflections here on Paddlewise. You win regardless when it comes to detailed replies. :-) I dare say using Paul Caffyn as a case study for rudder use efficiencies doesn't hold water when contrasting with say, Chris Duff's rudderless/skegless pursuits along various coastline in his Romany Explorer. And the Explorer ain't even the same animal as a much-heralded Broze Brother's Mariner. Hmmm. And Chris didn't even have a sliding seat (though he did have his seat and cockpit rip out I think in the nastily NZ surf). I myself, prefer a rudder for longer expedition paddling (whether exotic local, or the multilayer trip variety not too far from one's geographical area). Sure, paddling without a rudder is an achievement in its own right - a sign of one's successful integration of skill, finesse, and commitment - and ability to procure a well-behaved kayak. But heck, an extremely competent paddler I know who just came out with a new book on paddle strokes, has added a rudder on his expedition kayak (using the rudder occasionally I pursume). I have had a rudder cable slip out from its forward connection (due to metal fastener dissimilarity), and it did happen at the worst possible moment, but that was due to some poor engineering. Last few years I've been running much thicker, non-kinking marine cable, all staineless/stainless steal connentions, with the cable covered with plastic tubing, and have not had a problem, nor has it been a dangerous proposition in surf, though there are a couple of inches that could cut one's fingers I suppose. The thicker line helps. I also have a very fast uphaul line that lets me use the rudder until the last possible moment during surf landings. A good shock-corded down-haul line is also a great addition for a rudder, to permit constant engagement under the waterline when paddling through kelp, etc. I never use toggles for carying yaks, so can't relate. My knee/thigh support is very tight in my ruddered Nordkapp, so I can't relate either to all the talk about leg muscle control when and not when using rudders. Matt, you like a loose fit to help alleviate possible cramping while underway, so I well image it may be hard to relate to other paddler's success with outfitting cockpits for rudder use. I do admit that in medium height, really atrocious, steep following seas, there is a bit of zig-zag happening while ruddering. Never having paddled a Mariner in such conditions, I can't comment on whether there is any zagging when you want to zig, etc. Having witnessed my best-talented, rudderless-kayak paddling buddies zigging when they wanted to zag, well, we was all squirmy little fellers out there. No, none of us wants to race you. Matt, Matt, after nearly thirty years of paddling/retailing/writing/arguing, we're back to the great rudder debate again. Hey, if your knees give out on the ski slopes some day, let's talk about designing some cable-attenuated turning devices. :-) Doug Lloyd (rudder puppeteer extraordinaire) *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Ya..... here we go again? <grin> Well, it's probably useful to revisit these topics from time to time as there are always new thoughts and insights and new people to contribute. I liked Matt's reply and I think we all have more in common than in conflict. I'm just wondering if the huge carp in Moses Lake that my rudder occasionally hits are actually training to be sharks. On 6/27/07, Doug Lloyd <douglloyd_at_shaw.ca> wrote: (numerous snips made to suit my fancy) > > I dare say using Paul Caffyn as a case study for rudder use efficiencies > doesn't hold water when contrasting with say, Chris Duff's > rudderless/skegless pursuits along various coastline in his Romany > Explorer. I dunno about that. I think the major value in using Caffyn as a case study is that he kept records of his trips using all of these: no rudder, skeg, normal rudder, and deep rudder. I realize that, like all data, it can be misused and interpreted badly, but the raw data collected over years stands by itself as a testament to the effective use of a rudder for traveling many miles from point-to-point. It would be nice if other long-distance, expeditionary, obsessed, multi-year paddlers had done the same in other kayaks. It may help not to have a job. Caffyn's data says nothing about using a rudder in rock gardens, maneuvering through tight places, spins, quick turns, etc. Since I use my rudder mostly to allow me to concentrate on stroke cadence, body position, etc. during a point-to-point workout or trip his data is of value to me and, I think, to others. But there is a lot of value in Matt's opinions regarding the technical points of paddling without a rudder and in his points about paddling a kayak that performs well without a rudder. > I also have a very fast uphaul line that lets me use the rudder until > the last possible moment during surf landings. A good shock-corded > down-haul > line is also a great addition for a rudder, to permit constant engagement > under the waterline when paddling through kelp, etc. I think it is absolutely essential to have a sturdy, convenient rudder deployment system. I'm still using the reach-behind, struggle with the toggles and pull system and even though Nimbus did a pretty good job of this, I'm thinking about extending this up past the cockpit so I can just reach forward and do it. Interference with the cockpit coaming and possibly inhibiting a spray-skirt release has made me hesitant. That and I'm lazy. Hey, if your knees give out on the ski slopes some day, let's talk about > designing some cable-attenuated turning devices. :-) My knees gave it up for downhill; well, the left knee, anyway. But cross-country skiing turned out to work ok once I got over being terrified of falling and re-injuring that knee. Since I walk with a cane or even, when I'm at anything that requires a lot of walking (like the kayak do at Port Townsend), with forearm crutches, people have asked me how I can x/c ski. It's easy: they give you two long poles to lean on and then all you have to do is shuffle your feet. Even *I* can do that. :) > Doug Lloyd (rudder puppeteer extraordinaire) There's a nice turn of phrase. :) Craig Jungers Royal City, WA *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Gee Whiz!!! You forgot to add that rudders can get tangled in wild parsnit which would leave you susceptible to bear attack!!! I have heard the maintenance and breakage issue for ever, but haven't found either to be a problem in my 5 years of paddling. While I haven't heard of anyone I know have a rudder break, I know several who have had jammed skegs, supposedly the more reliable option. My rudder probably only gets used in 3% of my paddling, which may seem to make it rather superfluous, but when I want it I'm glad to have it. For the most part, my straight tracking QCC only tends to weathercock on top of my car when I'm going 75, but when conditions get to a certain point and I'm tired from a long paddle, it's nice to have some help. Or if I'm trying to keep a certain track through some rocky areas. My fixed pedal Seal Line rails eliminate the spongy pedal problem, which is a cause for concern. It seems there are poorly designed rudders, misused rudders and overused rudders, but none of that speaks to the case of proper rudder use. And it always bugs me with the implication that we are incapable overcoming the inherent problems of designing a good rudder. I'll admit boats without rudders just look better and it's best to be as capable as you can be without one, but I think they have their proper place in the sport. Mark -----Original Message----- From: Matt Broze Your efficiency point is arguable since rudders themselves cause additional drag just being in the water so they need to make up for more than they loose (with increased control of direction with less effort used--which may or may not be the case depending on many other factors, the kayak's design being a major one of those). 14)Rudders have been hit by sharks. Some have speculated that the motion (or vibrations from the rudder) acts as a lure to them. Matt Broze www.marinerkayaks.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
As Matt has previously implied, Paul's empirical observations would have more weight had he been in something a little less weatherhelm challenged than the Nordkapp HS. Still, his rudder use is definitely part of the annals of sea kayaking. Now if i could just use my rudder 100% guilt free. Doug L Craig said (snip): I dunno about that. I think the major value in using Caffyn as a case study is that he kept records of his trips using all of these: no rudder, skeg, normal rudder, and deep rudder. I realize that, like all data, it can be misused and interpreted badly, but the raw data collected over years stands by itself as a testament to the effective use of a rudder for traveling many miles from point-to-point. It would be nice if other long-distance, expeditionary, obsessed, multi-year paddlers had done the same in other kayaks. It may help not to have a job. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Yes, who do we see on this list to receive Absolution? -----Original Message----- Now if i could just use my rudder 100% guilt free. Doug L *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Just write your adsolution on the back of a 20 dollar bill and send it to me. -mike 1400 Townsend Dr Houghton, Mi 49931 > Yes, who do we see on this list to receive Absolution? > > -----Original Message----- > > > Now if i could just use my rudder 100% guilt free. > > Doug L *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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