Sorry if this has been covered before, but I am curious as to which baidarka bow type is "best". Looking once again to Zimmerly's site http://www.arctickayaks.com/plans.htm there are the MAE593-76 - both pieces straight LM2-14886 - the upturned fore piece Kodiak3-holeMAE536 - both upturned Perhaps Zimmerly covers this somewhere ( my copy of the book will be here later this week ). Apparently the first example ( both pieces straight ) fell out of style about 1850. So I assume that the others are technologically "more advanced". A change in style usually comes from new needs or perhaps different seas or even materials/tools. Does anyone here have hands on experience of what the differences are in the styles? Paul Montgomery paul_at_paddleandoar.com http://paddleandoar.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
About.Com has an opening for a "guide" for "paddling". Maybe you'll qualify ... i didn't. I got the passion and interest but not some of the other stuff... I have not financial or other interests in About.Com nor will i benefit in any way other than the information posted in the forum as any other individual would benefit. i'd just like to see if filled. http://beaguide.about.com/ http://beaguide.about.com/topics.htm QUALIFICATIONS: The purpose of the Paddling site is to teach, inform and otherwise enrich the paddling experience of both the casual and committed. The site will include such content as tutorials on how to paddle and refine your technique, gear reviews and how-tos, places to paddle, and safety. The Guide should have a professional background writing about paddling and be a recognized expert on the activity. This person must also be certified to teach paddling. The candidate will have the engaging writing voice of a columnist and the research and interviewing chops of a reporter, able to dig up information of vital interest and draw out interesting insights from other experts. Ideal qualifications include: - A journalist or author who has written extensively on the subject - A paddling instructor/guide PRIMARY AUDIENCE: Paddlers interested in enriching their own leisure/amateur paddling TOPICS TO COVER: This is not meant to be comprehensive; rather, it calls out basics that we'd like to see covered and serves as a foundation for the way in which we'd like topics to be organized. I. Paddling 101 A. What is paddling? B. Types of paddling C. How to get started D. Basic technique E. Essential gear II. Technique A. Canoeing B. Kayaking C. Whitewater D. Slalom etc. III. Gear A. Guides and reviews 1. Kayaks 2. Canoes 3. Paddles 4. Helmets 5. Gloves 6. Clothes 7. Shoes 8. Floatation devices 9. Packs etc. B. Maintenance and repairs IV. Safety A. Preparation B. Paddling guidelines C. What to do in emergencies V. Places to Paddle A. River profiles B. Park profiles C. Man-made facilities D. Guided trips E. Travel VI. Advanced Paddling A. Technical skills B. Pro gear C. Suggested trips D. Olympics --------------------------------- Ready for the edge of your seat? Check out tonight's top picks on Yahoo! TV. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Before you can answer the question you must first settle the question "best for what?" What works for surfing down a wave may not be very good for maintaining control in a cross wind. The differences in the bows may not reflect an "improvement" in technology but may be an indication of a change in how the boats were used, or they could be a result of a change in aesthetic fashion without really effecting the aspect of performance that was important to the Aleuts. On Aug 5, 2007, at 11:49 PM, Paul Montgomery wrote: > Sorry if this has been covered before, but I am curious as to which > baidarka bow type is "best". Looking once again to Zimmerly's site > > http://www.arctickayaks.com/plans.htm > > there are the > MAE593-76 - both pieces straight > LM2-14886 - the upturned fore piece > Kodiak3-holeMAE536 - both upturned > > Perhaps Zimmerly covers this somewhere ( my copy of the book will be > here later this week ). > > Apparently the first example ( both pieces straight ) fell out of > style about 1850. So I assume that the others are technologically > "more advanced". A change in style usually comes from new needs or > perhaps different seas or even materials/tools. > > Does anyone here have hands on experience of what the differences are > in the styles? Nick Schade Guillemot Kayaks 824 Thompson St Glastonbury, CT 06033 USA Ph/Fx: (860) 659-8847 http://www.guillemot-kayaks.com/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In my post I referred to this - that there might be a reason why one style was prefered over the other. But my ultimate question was "does anyone have any experience in those differences"? On Aug 6, 2007, at 7:31 AM, Nick Schade wrote: > Before you can answer the question you must first settle the > question "best for what?" What works for surfing down a wave may > not be very good for maintaining control in a cross wind. The > differences in the bows may not reflect an "improvement" in > technology but may be an indication of a change in how the boats > were used, or they could be a result of a change in aesthetic > fashion without really effecting the aspect of performance that > was important to the Aleuts. > > On Aug 5, 2007, at 11:49 PM, Paul Montgomery wrote: > >> Sorry if this has been covered before, but I am curious as to which >> baidarka bow type is "best". Looking once again to Zimmerly's site >> >> http://www.arctickayaks.com/plans.htm >> >> there are the >> MAE593-76 - both pieces straight >> LM2-14886 - the upturned fore piece >> Kodiak3-holeMAE536 - both upturned >> >> Perhaps Zimmerly covers this somewhere ( my copy of the book will be >> here later this week ). >> >> Apparently the first example ( both pieces straight ) fell out of >> style about 1850. So I assume that the others are technologically >> "more advanced". A change in style usually comes from new needs or >> perhaps different seas or even materials/tools. >> >> Does anyone here have hands on experience of what the differences are >> in the styles? Paul Montgomery paul_at_paddleandoar.com http://paddleandoar.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
--- Paul Montgomery <paul_at_paddleandoar.com> wrote: > But my ultimate > question was "does > anyone have any experience in those differences"? Dear Paul, I've built and paddled replicas of baidarkas with the three different bow-types you've referred to if that counts for 'experience with those differences." While all three are called "baidarkas" they come from two very different cultures: Aleut and Pacific Yupik. The two Aleut kayaks are separated by 100 years. All three kayaks are very different from eachother in form and even the historical context of their creation and function. So, that said, each bow-shape likely worked just fine or it probably would not have been made that way. I can't comment on one bow form being better than another for modern use because these are just minute elements of much larger systems-- and besides, 'modern use is a tremendous variable, nevermind factors of personal preference. All the best, harvey http://www.traditionalkayaks.com/Kayakreplicas/KayakReplicas.html > > On Aug 5, 2007, at 11:49 PM, Paul Montgomery > wrote: > > > >> Sorry if this has been covered before, but I am curious as to which > >> baidarka bow type is "best". Looking once again to Zimmerly's site > >> > >> http://www.arctickayaks.com/plans.htm > >> > >> there are the > >> MAE593-76 - both pieces straight > >> LM2-14886 - the upturned fore piece > >> Kodiak3-holeMAE536 - both upturned > >> > >> Perhaps Zimmerly covers this somewhere ( my copy > of the book will be here later this week ). > >> > >> Apparently the first example ( both pieces straight ) fell out of > >> style about 1850. So I assume that the others are technologically > >> "more advanced". A change in style usually comes from new needs or > >> perhaps different seas or even materials/tools. > >> > >> Does anyone here have hands on experience of what > the differences are in the styles? *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
It's great to have Harvey Golden comment in here. I'm not an SOF paddler but I'm certainly an admirer and Harvey's replicas are simply amazing. Most everything I know about native kayaks has been gleaned from the Internet (including Harvey's web pages) so please excuse me if I'm obviously ignorant about these matters. I've wondered whether the bow shaps of the baidarkas were mostly functional or mostly cultural. Certainly, some of the features (such as the obvious handles) were functional. But other bits look more like they were made as cultural icons to identify, say, the builder or the group. Why, for instance, did the Greenlanders apparently never evolve the sometimes bizarre bow shapes featured on baidarkas? These shapes were certainly more difficult to construct than a simple bow shape and one is tempted to say that if they didn't serve a purpose then they would not have gone to all that trouble. But native cultures often build elaborate structures for their own cultural purposes (totem poles, for instance) that are difficult to discern under modern conditions. Is there some definitive information on what these bow features were intended to provide? Interviews, writings, etc.? Or is it mostly speculative? Craig Jungers Royal City, WA On 8/8/07, Harvey Golden <harveydgolden_at_yahoo.com> wrote: > > > Dear Paul, > I've built and paddled replicas of baidarkas with the > three different bow-types you've referred to if that > counts for 'experience with those differences." > While all three are called "baidarkas" they come from > two very different cultures: Aleut and Pacific Yupik. > The two Aleut kayaks are separated by 100 years. All > three kayaks are very different from eachother in form > and even the historical context of their creation and > function. So, that said, each bow-shape likely worked > just fine or it probably would not have been made that > way. I can't comment on one bow form being better > than another for modern use because these are just > minute elements of much larger systems-- and besides, > 'modern use is a tremendous variable, nevermind > factors of personal preference. > All the best, > harvey > http://www.traditionalkayaks.com/Kayakreplicas/KayakReplicas.html *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
As I understand it, the function of the lower bifid bow -- at least the original straight version -- was to make the kayak faster, and the function of the upper bifid bow was to help the kayak ride better over waves. I've read that it is the only way make a concave bow on a SOF kayak. Please note that I have not read Marchant or done a mathematical analysis of bifid bows and will not defend this theory to the death. It is just something I have heard or read that makes at least some sense to me. The bows of Greenland kayaks make them easier to paddle in brash ice and to pull up onto ice floes, problems not normally faced by the Aleuts. However, fashion did have a place in kayak construction. I seem to recall that the kayak styles used in East Greenland changed around 1900 after the East Greenlanders encountered Southwest Greenlanders paddling a different style kayak. Whether it was because the new style was more efficient or simply because it was different, I don't know. Chuck Holst *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> --- Paul Montgomery <paul_at_paddleandoar.com> wrote: >> But my ultimate >> question was "does >> anyone have any experience in those differences"? > On Aug 8, 2007, at 9:19 AM, Harvey Golden wrote: > So, that said, each bow-shape likely worked > just fine or it probably would not have been made that > way. I can't comment on one bow form being better > than another for modern use because these are just > minute elements of much larger systems-- and besides, > 'modern use is a tremendous variable, nevermind > factors of personal preference. > All the best, > harvey > Very true, those kayaks have other features besides the bifid bow. Hull shape etc play perhaps an even bigger part in performance. It is the kind of thing that I would expect to find more information about though. Especially in context of modern kayaks based on the traditional designs. I know that kayak makers can sometimes obsess over performance details that don't really matter as much as say, fitness or the skill of the paddler. I certainly am not trying to be that way. But I notice how kayak builders also tend to 'revere' the traditional (I confess that I do) and so I suspect that by challenging the old designs a new appreciation would develop. Perhaps I could rephrase my question or better yet put forth a series of questions. - On a kayak with all other elements being the same would there be a discernible difference between the 3 types of bows. - On a kayak with a Greenland style of hull, would a baidarka bow have a discernible effect. - On a baidarka style hull, would a 'standard' bow be 'just as good' as the baidarka bow. I would like to work on these projects myself, and may, but in my shop things happen slowly since I am the only designer / builder / clean-up crew. I just thought that others may have some kind of experience or curiosity here. Paul Montgomery paul_at_paddleandoar.com http://paddleandoar.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
--- Paul Montgomery <paul_at_paddleandoar.com> wrote: > Perhaps I could rephrase my question or better yet > put forth a series > of questions. > - On a kayak with all other elements being the same > would there be a > discernible difference between the 3 types of bows. I don't believe there would be. > - On a kayak with a Greenland style of hull, would a > baidarka bow > have a discernible effect. Probably not. > - On a baidarka style hull, would a 'standard' bow > be 'just as good' > as the baidarka bow. Probably. --these are answers that would suggest that the Aleutian style baidarka bows do not contribute anything special to a kayak, however when that particular shape is used in conjunction with the structure (not neccessarily hull-shape) of an Aleut baidarka, I do believe great differences can be detected. Aleut kayaks have a dynamic flexibility (as opposed to a passive flexibility or resiliency that other skin-on-frame kayaks have). They are designed to move over the water, and the Aleut baidarka's bow shape enables the bow to lift over waves without having to lift the entire kayak. This is how the resultant properties of a bow with a narrow cutwater and a broad buoyant upper plate can be maximized. Details of these forms, joints, and structures can be seen in my latest project: http://www.traditionalkayaks.com/Kayakreplicas/VK228fullsize.html I hope you do pursue some Aleut-style projects-- they are fascinating and there is much to learn from them yet. Best, Harvey > > I would like to work on these projects myself, and > may, but in my > shop things happen slowly since I am the only > designer / builder / > clean-up crew. I just thought that others may have > some kind of > experience or curiosity here. > > Paul Montgomery *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Aug 9, 2007, at 7:24 PM, Harvey Golden wrote: > --these are answers that would suggest that the > Aleutian style baidarka bows do not contribute > anything special to a kayak, however when that > particular shape is used in conjunction with the > structure (not neccessarily hull-shape) of an Aleut > baidarka, I do believe great differences can be > detected. I am coming to that conclusion myself as I go through and study the drawings on a lot of different boats. > Aleut kayaks have a dynamic flexibility (as > opposed to a passive flexibility or resiliency that > other skin-on-frame kayaks have). They are designed to > move over the water, and the Aleut baidarka's bow > shape enables the bow to lift over waves without > having to lift the entire kayak. This is how the > resultant properties of a bow with a narrow cutwater > and a broad buoyant upper plate can be maximized. Here is something I find interesting. With a flat hand and fingers together, open the index and middle fingers to make a V. Put your hand in the water with and with out the V. To me water seems to slip through the V much better than with out. > Details of these forms, joints, and structures can be > seen in my latest project: > http://www.traditionalkayaks.com/Kayakreplicas/VK228fullsize.html Good pictures for me right now. I am working on a model of the Lowie Museum baidarka from Zimmerly's article in the Small Boat Journal (March 1983). I have 3 folders that I built and have been using for 2 or 3 years and I have to finish them up and sell one or two of them. Then I can build full size boats again. But - models SHOULD be built anyway. > I hope you do pursue some Aleut-style projects-- they > are fascinating and there is much to learn from them > yet. > Best, > Harvey I guess it would be possible to build hulls with replaceable bows and sterns, and to do a baidarka folder it might even be the best way to do it. But on the other hand just building and / paddling different boats is probably enough. Every boat teaches one something. Paul Montgomery paul_at_paddleandoar.com http://paddleandoar.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Although sweeping your hand through the water probably isn't exactly a controlled test, most baidarkas are not designed such that the lower finger is underwater, so you would want to do your test with both the upper and the lower fingers sticking up out of the water. On Aug 13, 2007, at 11:21 PM, Paul Montgomery wrote: > Here is something I find interesting. With a flat hand and fingers > together, open the index and middle fingers to make a V. Put your > hand in the water with and with out the V. To me water seems to slip > through the V much better than with out. Nick Schade Guillemot Kayaks 824 Thompson St Glastonbury, CT 06033 USA Ph/Fx: (860) 659-8847 http://www.guillemot-kayaks.com/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On 8/14/07, Nick Schade <nick_at_guillemot-kayaks.com> wrote: > > most baidarkas are not designed such that the > lower finger is underwater, So if they weren't a precurser to the bulbous bow designs of super-tankers, then why did they go to all that trouble to build it that way? Take a look at this remarkable example (by Harvey Golden): http://www.traditionalkayaks.com/Kayakreplicas/VK228fullsize.html Towards the bottom of this page is a close-up photograph of the slot between the upper and lower bows. I've never built a kayak but this design appears (to me, at least) to add a great deal of complexity over a Greenland bow shape. It's gives the kayak a cool look but I keep wondering why they did it. The hat is cool too. Craig Jungers Royal City, WA *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Aug 14, 2007, at 10:52 AM, Craig Jungers wrote: > On 8/14/07, Nick Schade <nick_at_guillemot-kayaks.com> wrote: >> >> most baidarkas are not designed such that the >> lower finger is underwater, > > > So if they weren't a precurser to the bulbous bow designs of super- > tankers, > then why did they go to all that trouble to build it that way? That is a completely open question. I don't think that we can assume they were there purely for hydrodynamic efficiency reasons. Alternate reasons may include: ease of constructions, structural flexibility, rough water handling, aesthetic, "spiritual/religious/superstitious", etc. Even in the cases where the lower finger was at or below the waterline, in any kind of rough water they would be subject to coming out of the water frequently in waves which would limit their ability to act like a supertanker bulb. Nick Schade Guillemot Kayaks 824 Thompson St Glastonbury, CT 06033 USA Ph/Fx: (860) 659-8847 http://www.guillemot-kayaks.com/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Craig Jungers wrote: > Towards the bottom of this page is a close-up photograph of the slot between > the upper and lower bows. I've never built a kayak but this design appears > (to me, at least) to add a great deal of complexity over a Greenland bow > shape. It's gives the kayak a cool look but I keep wondering why they did > it. Craig, consider the debate among archaeologists over the body piercings found in the current generation of younguns: What function do you suppose the future scribes might deduce? Those bow splits might have some inscrutable cultural purpose; absent hard data: numbers to document any advantage, debate seems mostly debate and not resolution of a quandary. -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
My baidarka's bow and stern make it the greatest design in the universe. There can be only one kayak - Duncan McCloud of the clan McCloud *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
A sturdy nipple ring seems a perfect place to attach a paddle leash! -----Original Message----- Behalf Of Dave Kruger Craig, consider the debate among archaeologists over the body piercings found in the current generation of younguns: What function do you suppose the future scribes might deduce? -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Ouch! It's a strange coincidence that the other day, when I was throwing away some plastic wrapping from a microwavable pannini sandwich, I flashed on someone in the future unearthing it and thinking they'd recovered something valuable. No doubt in my mind at all that the denizens of the future will be mining our garbage dumps. Isn't the word "sturdy" when applied to a nipple ring an oxymoron? Craig Jungers Royal City, WA On 8/14/07, Mark Sanders <sandmarks_at_ca.rr.com> wrote: > > A sturdy nipple ring seems a perfect place to attach a paddle leash! > > -----Original Message----- > Behalf Of Dave Kruger > > > Craig, consider the debate among archaeologists over the body piercings > found in the current generation of younguns: What function do you suppose > the future scribes might deduce? > > -- > Dave Kruger > Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On 8/14/07, Dave Kruger <kdruger_at_pacifier.com> wrote: > > > Those bow splits might have some inscrutable cultural purpose; absent > hard > data: numbers to document any advantage, debate seems mostly debate and > not resolution of a quandary. > Yup... a time machine would certainly come in handy for this. The Native Americans of the tribes in the Pacific Northwest and west coast of BC used canoe designs to differentiate tribes and (probably) clans within a tribe. I suspect that a lot of baidarka design could be classified as "cultural". And it works well for that since even now we can tell a baidarka from a Mariner Express (for instance). The "bulbous bow" facet of the debate seems pretty well laid to rest (at least in my own mind) because many of the bows designs (such as the example I provided) are clearly not intended to go under the water. But that doesn't mean that there might not be some utilitarian function that we, living in the age of accelerated global warming, can't deduce. Or that there weren't a combination of utility and cultural influences. They sure are interesting though. I can see how a kayak builder (ancient or modern) could be proud of them. Craig Jungers Royal City, WA *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Perhaps they were trying to sew the equivalent of a flared bow. With skin on frame it is hard to create a cross-section curve that is concave. Perhaps the double bow achieves this effect. Perhaps they are easier to sew overall and have everything tight. Perhaps they are dictated by the materials available rather than some hydrodynamic purpose. On Aug 14, 2007, at 7:52 AM, Craig Jungers wrote: > So if they weren't a precurser to the bulbous bow designs of super- > tankers, > then why did they go to all that trouble to build it that way? *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> On Aug 13, 2007, at 11:21 PM, Paul Montgomery wrote: >> Here is something I find interesting. With a flat hand and fingers >> together, open the index and middle fingers to make a V. Put your >> hand in the water with and with out the V. To me water seems to slip >> through the V much better than with out. On Aug 14, 2007, at 6:48 AM, Nick Schade wrote: > Although sweeping your hand through the water probably isn't > exactly a controlled test, most baidarkas are not designed such > that the lower finger is underwater, so you would want to do your > test with both the upper and the lower fingers sticking up out of > the water. Good points Nick. Although the bifid bow does not ride in the water, it looks like to me that the bow would disseminate water faster in a heavy sea than a straight bow. Able to recover from a dig in faster. Again, not a controlled test, just a hunch. I just have a feeling that all of the extra work that went into that bow was for anything but function. Or maybe I just WANT to believe that. Paul Montgomery paul_at_paddleandoar.com http://paddleandoar.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Aug 14, 2007, at 5:32 PM, Paul Montgomery wrote: > Good points Nick. Although the bifid bow does not ride in the water, > it looks like to me that the bow would disseminate water faster in a > heavy sea than a straight bow. Able to recover from a dig in faster. > Again, not a controlled test, just a hunch. I just have a feeling > that all of the extra work that went into that bow was for anything > but function. Or maybe I just WANT to believe that. Even "Function" has a wide range of possibilities. For example during hunting maybe the bow made a noise they found useful. Since the original user had a lot needs which we do not, whatever function it may have had may be hard for us to recognize. Nick Schade Guillemot Kayaks 824 Thompson St Glastonbury, CT 06033 USA Ph/Fx: (860) 659-8847 http://www.guillemot-kayaks.com/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
My theory of the bifid bow is that it was a way of combining a fine bow entry with a fuller bow above it (for better lift in waves). A skin boat can't otherwise have a hollow form to get both in a relatively low windage bow. Perhaps the first ones made that way were representations of an open mouthed predator but soon practicality reared its ugly head and a stick was placed in the mouth to keep the kelp from getting wedged in there and later the lower jaw was turned up in order to avoid putting in that stick and attaching it somehow in place while keeping the desirable function that had been recognized. The Greenland kayaks get the same function with a lot of rake at the front but at the cost of adding even more windage at the bow either from extra length or height required. The rake on a Greenland kayak also provided the means to slide up onto low ice flows. The flexibility of a skin on frame hull also helps provide this bow lift function so the buoyancy necessary to provide equal dryness does not have to be nearly as much with a flexible a skin boat as on a hard shell kayak of similar dimensions. Dyson's bulbous bow (and whale oil as a laminar flow stabilizer) theories, I think came from him working backwards to try to explain the historical accounts that had Biadarka's traveling good distances at something like 10 knots. Personally, I think the historical accounts were either mis-calculated or the strong currents and/or waves to surf on (or possible portage short-cuts) weren't taken into account by the likely naive observers. The skill and strength of a people that depended on the kayak for many generations (combined with the workings of evolution) also was likely a factor in making the average Eskimo paddler have the endurance and speed of present day top Olympic competitors. Matt Broze www.marinerkayaks.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Aug 17, 2007, at 10:15 PM, Matt Broze wrote: > My theory of the bifid bow is that it was a way of combining a fine > bow > entry with a fuller bow above it (for better lift in waves). My experience exactly. Fast yet fat. I launch my baidarka double a week from Saturday. Hello, my name is Jim and I have a small craft problem. > The flexibility of a > skin on frame hull also helps provide this bow lift function so the > buoyancy > necessary to provide equal dryness does not have to be nearly as > much with a > flexible a skin boat as on a hard shell kayak of similar dimensions. Baidarka SOF enthusiasts seem VERY interested in flex. I hope to explore this myself just as soon as I can. Dont tell my wife. > > The skill and strength of a people that depended on the kayak for > many generations (combined with the workings of evolution) also was > likely a > factor in making the average Eskimo paddler have the endurance and > speed of > present day top Olympic competitors. I had a wonderful chat with Wolfgang Brink concerning this. What a pleasant man. I also have a copy of his book I am willing to part with for one hundred billion dollars (pinky to lip). Jim et al *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Aug 17, 2007, at 7:15 PM, Matt Broze wrote: > My theory of the bifid bow is that it was a way of combining a fine > bow > entry with a fuller bow above it (for better lift in waves). A skin > boat > can't otherwise have a hollow form to get both in a relatively low > windage > bow. etc etc. It certainly makes sense to me. Since I don't (yet) have practical experience with the baidarka or in comparisons of various models; (as I stated before) just by looking I have to wonder if the bifid bow also disseminates water any better than other bow types. That is, when it noses into a wave, does it shed the water better. Has anyone heard of this idea, and does anyone have an opinion on whether this could be true or not. Paul Montgomery paul_at_paddleandoar.com http://paddleandoar.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On 8/17/07, Matt Broze <marinerkayaks_at_msn.com> wrote: > > My theory of the bifid bow is that it was a way of combining a fine bow > entry with a fuller bow above it (for better lift in waves). A skin boat > can't otherwise have a hollow form to get both in a relatively low windage > bow. I went back and looked at the photos of the baidarks I had referenced earlier; both skinned and unskinned and Matt's theory seems to fit the finished article. Plus a bit of cultural representation as well but one can see the fine entry with the more buoyant sections above and aft. This makes a lot more sense to me than ideas about bulbous bows and 10kt paddles. I'm back to upper Priest Lake in Idaho for an overnighter with my son. Craig Jungers Royal City, WA *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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