Elite racers-kayak tragedy: In the referenced account, I didn't see anything about rolling skills, as well as failure to dress for immersion. Hard to brace and get best leverage for turning and rolling with those little short racing paddles. As a former white water paddler, I learned to roll as a manditory entry skill for white water paddling. I capsized many times in class- 5 rapids, but I never had to swim... even once when the spray skirt blew off due to impact compression. The rolling standard is curiously absent from the sea kayaking requisit skill list. Going fast gets all the emphasis, even when the paddlers are headed out to battle the worst conditions the Sea Gods have saved up for us! When heading out into the roughest conditions you can find, it is a serious failure to be totally unprepared to make a fair fight of it! Chuck Sutherland *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
How practical is rolling in those conditions for a double kayak, really? This is a serious question. I am fully capable of rolling my single, but I've never attempted it in a double. I know people who have rolled their double in calm conditions, but I've never heard anyone talk about doing it in rough conditions. No, I'm not talking about a single paddler in a double kayak - I mean 2 paddlers in a double kayak. Is this really a reliable rescue in a double sea kayak? Anyone with experience with this, please jump in.... I'd like to know. On Wed, 10 Oct 2007 13:39:07 4, skimmer <skimmer_at_enter.net> wrote: > Elite racers-kayak tragedy: > > In the referenced account, I didn't see anything about rolling skills, > as well as failure to dress for immersion. Hard to brace and get > best leverage for turning and rolling with those little short racing > paddles. > > As a former white water paddler, I learned to roll as a manditory > entry skill for white water paddling. I capsized many times in class- > 5 rapids, but I never had to swim... even once when the spray skirt > blew off due to impact compression. The rolling standard is > curiously absent from the sea kayaking requisit skill list. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Rolling a double is more of a circus trick than a method of self- rescue. If the conditions are bad enough to capsize a double, it is almost inconceivable to me that two kayakers could harmonize their rolling efforts to get up. Most double are very resistant to turning over. In most, you can get one person back in by the person in the water holding the kayak steady. I think that the problem is getting the water out. There is a LOT of water in a capsized double. Enough to destabilize what starts out as a very stable platform. One COULD design and build a double with basically built in pods around the paddlers that minimize the water that they contain but it would be expensive and not likely to survive on the open market although an individual who cared enough could build one this way. Then you would have a lot more of a chance of recovering from a double capsize. On Oct 10, 2007, at 1:34 PM, Bob Myers wrote: > Is this really a reliable rescue in a double sea kayak? Anyone with > experience with this, please jump in.... I'd like to know. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On 10/10/07, Robert Livingston <bearboat2_at_comcast.net> wrote: > > Rolling a double is more of a circus trick than a method of self- > rescue. If the conditions are bad enough to capsize a double, it is > almost inconceivable to me that two kayakers could harmonize their > rolling efforts to get up.... My experience in double kayaks is limited to a small dog on my lap on the lake but at the Port Townsend seminar there were a number of doubles practicing self-rescue and even rolls. So it can be done but whether it's feasible in rough conditions I couldn't say. ...One COULD design and build a double with basically built in pods > around the paddlers that minimize the water that they contain... One word: sea sock. Ok, that's two words... put a hyphen in the middle. Craig Jungers Royal City, WA *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
The first part of this video shows Duane Strosaker and Bob McMurray rolling and static bracing in Duane's double Point Bennett. They don't usually paddle together in the double, but didn't have much trouble with this impromptu get together. They are both excellent rollers on their own and I don't think they'd have much trouble rolling at all if they paddled double more often. I'll ask him to comment on the feasibility during real world conditions. Mark http://vidshadow.com/video_player.asp?videoid=3629 -----Original Message----- > > Rolling a double is more of a circus trick than a method of self- > rescue. If the conditions are bad enough to capsize a double, it is > almost inconceivable to me that two kayakers could harmonize their > rolling efforts to get up.... ...whether it's feasible in rough conditions I couldn't say. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Paddlewisers, Rolling a double (at least some) is quite easy. It just takes a pre-agreed side to roll up on, such as the side you capsized on. Good timing isn't necessary, because you can scull up first and then roll. I can't believe I repeatedly hear a BCU coach say side sculling is useless? Below is a link to another rolling video with me in the front seat. We failed a static brace, and my partner went for roll while I went for a scull. So our timing was off. We still made it up fine: http://vidshadow.com/video_player.asp?videoid=3599 I know these are calm water videos, but there's no reason why two good rollers shouldn't usually be able to roll a double in rough water. Duane Southern California *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Rolling in dangerous conditions. The count to three with banging was proven useful in 2000, in the Louisiana Bayous where, just around the bend, there was a 10 foot crocodile, that we just saw before, as we walked by. At the time my roll was poor. Arthur Hebert, the Gulf of Mexico single crosser and I, tried to roll the double Tabasco. http://outdoors.webshots.com/photo/1053659823031769591alUoRJ http://outdoors.webshots.com/photo/1053660001031769591LoudQH http://outdoors.webshots.com/photo/1053660135031769591XoJcxK I made the contrary movements on the first roll and we capsized. My son was shouting at me "Beware of the Crocodile". We wet exited and I held the boat and Arthur climbed at great speed. Then he sculled as I climbed up. (First picture). We tried again and the roll was successful. The motivation of the croc there did help a lot. On later times we have tried with different people, with basic rolling abilities, and have not missed one. The tandem can be rolled by one person, and takes only little sculling support from the other. http://outdoors.webshots.com/photo/1086163467031769591hULjKa Best Regards, Rafael Mexico. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Hi Bob and Robert, I agree with Robert that capsizing a double is very difficult. We have, by playing in the surf, which is lot of fun in a double. Of course it depends on the couple skills, but we have discussed and tried two ways of rolling. 1.- A previously reached agreement of rolling simultaneously after three bangs on the hull with the paddle. This means that after things settle underwater, one paddler hits the hull with the paddle shaft at same pace three times and both roll at the time of the fourth hit. 2.- Both paddlers start sculling, (maybe done with extended shaft also) and once they are both near water surface and leaning backwards, the boat recovers, as they press to finish the turn. We have done both with reasonable success. We have three compartments, one in the bow, one in the stern and one between coamings, so there is only water in the cockpits and reentry and stability is easier in case of wet exit. Once in the water, one kayaker holds the boat while the other climbs in, and then the second climbs in while the first sculls to keep balance, then they pump water out alternatively and get going. Best Regards, Rafael Mexico *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Dear All, My limited but humbling experiences leads me to say that two paddlers rolling a double is very unlkely to be successful. I have done it once or twice, but even after long planning with the other paddler and attempts in calm conditions, it more often didn't work (and we were both very capable rollers). What we did find however is that if one pre-assigned paddler (fore or aft) is to tuck forward and hug the hull in the event of a capsize, the other paddler could effectively roll the kayak up. The "tucker" could even easily feel the roll's direction and leave their head and torso in the water long enough for the kayak to make it most of the way up. I think this is worth practicing if a serious trip with doubles is anticipated-- it offers every bit of speed as a normal roll and does not involve someone wet-exiting. If a double gets knocked over, and someone bails out, are they likely to be ble to get back inside in such conditions? Practise that too, of course. All the best, Harvey Harvey Golden www.traditionalkayaks.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Thursday 11 October 2007 04:54, Robert L wrote: > Rolling a double is more of a circus trick than a method of self- > rescue. If the conditions are bad enough to capsize a double, it is > almost inconceivable to me that two kayakers could harmonize their > rolling efforts to get up. Rolling a Klepper Aerius II by a pair of experts have been demonstrated in the US, but that is certainly not something even experienced paddlers are used to! If a loading hatch is to be opened at sea it should, of course, be equipped with a seasock, or similar - even some classic Inuit kayaks are nowadays equipped with flexible walls, made out of fabric glued to the inside of the hull. > I think that the problem is getting the water out. There is a LOT of > water in a capsized double. Enough to destabilize what starts out as > a very stable platform. In a Klepper Ae II there can be close to half a ton! The sponsons along its sides makes it fairly stable in that position, but you need a high capacity electric pump to empty it in any kind of seas, and the sprayskirt must be in place. That would most likely be ripped off, at least partly, if you have rolled! Long Haul's version is much better, as it turns the big skirt into two smaller (normal) ones and one big, covering the coaming. Hannes Lindemann, who in the Fifties twice paddled across the Atlantic, once using a Klepper Aerius II, rolled a few times accidentally. Somehow he got the boats right side up, and bailed them successfully. Can't imagine how he did it, as the feat seems to me impossible! Tord *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> > Rolling a double is more of a circus trick than a method of self- > > rescue. If the conditions are bad enough to capsize a double, it is > > almost inconceivable to me that two kayakers could harmonize their > > rolling efforts to get up. > I guess I disagree. My wife and I have rolled a tandem sea kayak. We've never rolled it in "combat" conditions, but we own a Topo-Duo (tandem whitewater boat), and we roll that regularly. I don't see how rolling a sea kayak tandem is much different. I mean, it's no different than the difference between rolling a WW boat and a sea kayak. We roll our tandem, and always roll on the same side. I start the sweep, she starts as soon as she feels the sweep start. I guess I don't see any reason why it's necessarily any more of a "circus trick" than rolling a regular sea kayak. Geoff *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Bob Myers wrote: > How practical is rolling in those conditions for a double kayak, really? > > This is a serious question. I am fully capable of rolling my single, > but I've never attempted it in a double. I know people who have > rolled their double in calm conditions, but I've never heard anyone > talk about doing it in rough conditions. No, I'm not talking about a > single paddler in a double kayak - I mean 2 paddlers in a double > kayak. > > Is this really a reliable rescue in a double sea kayak? Anyone with > experience with this, please jump in.... I'd like to know. > I have never been in a double with anyone who could roll. However, I have taken doubles with passengers out in the surf just for giggles and when the inevitable capsize occurs I would just hold my breath and wait for the passenger to wet exit, then I would roll up and have them climb back in again. It's really pretty simple and I don't see why it wouldn't work in real conditions - after all, I have managed it any number of times in the surf, which are pretty real conditions. I have seen demos with two paddlers timing their rolls so that they could roll a double up together. I'm skeptical as to how this technique would work in "real" conditions. But what do I know :-) Scott So.Cal. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
My contention is that the difference is implicit in the words "for giggles" and "inevitable" capsize. These are very different circumstances than an "unexpected" capsize in extremely rough cold water. Surf is one thing but for open water to be rough enough to capsize a double and then think that the occupants would be able to roll up is to me so unlikely as to be uninteresting. If the occupants were such superb kayakers in the first place they would not have rolled unless the conditions were horrendous. Under such conditions people are tired and scared. They cannot hold their breath for long. This is not a situation where it is likely that they will have enough discipline for two people to coordinate such a thing. For one person in a single is a lot easier. It takes a good deal of discipline for a single kayaker to roll. Many people who know how to roll or even know how to roll in rough water fail when such an event happens for real. WW paddlers roll as a matter of course. It is common to tip over in WW. Oceans surfers -- the same thing. However, sea kayaks rarely tip over unless the roll is deliberate. So the sea kayaker who tips over unexpectedly is facing a new experience (even if he is a good roller) which decreases the success rate. A double magnifies all these issues. Double REALLY rarely flip. Some coordination between paddlers is required. (Even if one is assigned the task of getting out) On Oct 10, 2007, at 5:34 PM, Scott Hilliard wrote: > I have never been in a double with anyone who could roll. However, > I have taken doubles with passengers out in the surf just for > giggles and when the inevitable capsize occurs I would just hold my > breath and wait for the passenger to wet exit, then I would roll up > and have them climb back in again. It's really pretty simple and I > don't see why it wouldn't work in real conditions - after all, I > have managed it any number of times in the surf, which are pretty > real conditions. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Another thought might have been to get the hypothermic paddler in the cockpit of the rear paddler rather than in the middle cargo hatch if it was too small to allow getting center of gravity down. Many years ago I escaped (or at least a member of my group escaped) a Darwin award by pulling someone out of the water and having that person sit in my lap in my single. She was high enough in my lap that the boat was unstable and when combined with the fact that I could not effectively use my paddle, I could really only stay upright by holding on to other kayaks to make a raft.. We sat around like this for several hours until rescued. In many doubles, however, there probably would have been room for her to scoot forward enough to get her rear end on the floor of the boat and lower the center of gravity. Indeed, in some doubles, enough room to scoot forward enough to get under the spray skirt or at least low enough to allow the rear paddler to paddle again. Just tossing out an idea for someone who finds themselves in such a situation. You might practice with YOUR double to see if such a thing is doable. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Just wondering. I can see how rolling would be an entry level skill for WW paddling, but how long does it take a new WW kayaker to acquire it? Many of us sea kayakers who at least try to learn to roll take quite a while to master it if ever and in the meantime, we can enjoy paddling at a lesser level. I wonder if that means only the people for whom rolling comes naturally ever get into WW kayaking. I realize my size has some effect on my rolling ability and so would probably discourage me from trying the WW side. I know when I used to ski, I was very good at going straight downhill; not so good at the side to side part! Mark Sanders www.sandmarks.net -----Original Message----- As a former white water paddler, I learned to roll as a manditory entry skill for white water paddling. I capsized many times in class- 5 rapids, but I never had to swim... even once when the spray skirt blew off due to impact compression. The rolling standard is curiously absent from the sea kayaking requisit skill list. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Mark Sanders said: how long does it take a new WW kayaker to acquire it? Many of us sea kayakers who at least try to learn to roll take quite a while to master it if ever and in the meantime, we can enjoy paddling at a lesser level. Speaking only for myself - I learned to roll in a pool class in the winter. By that spring I had a reliable roll. I paddled whitewater fanatically (slalom and wildwater racing) from 1978 through 1994. Still paddle it once in a while, like the Grand Canyon a couple years ago. My roll has been terrific since I learned it in the pool. I have had to swim because of failed rolls only twice since 1978 and only four times because of being pinned. So - one good season of pool practice, doing about 50 rolls a session, rolling on both sides without a setup, rolling with no paddle, rolling with only one hand and no paddle, I developed a roll that hasn't failed me since 1989. Unfortunately, I have never been knowcked over in a sea kayak unless I was surfing, so I can't speak to a combat roll in one. But my Grand Canyon trip led to me having to roll once and it worked just fine. Perfect practice leads to perfect results. look at http://www.btinternet.com/~ringwood.canoe/rolling.htm Jim Tibensky *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 10/10/2007 5:16:12 PM Pacific Daylight Time, sandmarks_at_ca.rr.com writes: Just wondering. I can see how rolling would be an entry level skill for WW paddling, but how long does it take a new WW kayaker to acquire it? Many of us sea kayakers who at least try to learn to roll take quite a while to master it if ever and in the meantime, we can enjoy paddling at a lesser level. I wonder if that means only the people for whom rolling comes naturally ever get into WW kayaking. I realize my size has some effect on my rolling ability and so would probably discourage me from trying the WW side. I know when I used to ski, I was very good at going straight downhill; not so good at the side to side part! >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Oh, Oh, I can answer this! I just swam Granite rapid on the Colorado of the Grand Canyon. It wasn't fun. In fact, it sucked. But then again, when you step up to the plate prepare to get struck out. My rolls whiffed that time. They were much better elsewhere in the trip. In whitewater, rolling is a fact of life and the preparation for it starts very early on. I'm not little, nor are my rolls like Greg Stamer's, but they usually work just fine and I paddle alot of fun and bouncy places. I would heartily encourage you to try whitewater and surfing in a whitewater or surf boat. From all the posts I've read of yours, you seem to have the kind of personality that would thrive there. Cheers, Rob G ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Ken Fink has long maintained that self-rescue from a double with two able bodied paddlers (post wet exit of both paddlers) is one of the easiest kayak rescues on the books. I tend to agree, though I'd hate to have to contend with all that water sloshing around, as has been pointed out, or worse, a blown out foam bulkhead post capsize that can sometimes occur. The seasock idea Craig mentioned might work well for ordinary paddlers, but multi-race athletes might not appreciate the sock's utilitarian merits versus the alleged encumbrance of using one while racing. I don't know what kind of sea kayaking self-rescue skills these paddlers possessed, but my experience with multisport racers, though limited, suggests they inevitably dress poorly. Additionally, they maintain very little body fat, which often potentiates poor outcomes after a long immersion in cold water. The weather has been a few degrees cooler this past weekend than normal, and the storm was more like the intensity one might expect next month for these parts. I still don't understand the mentality behind the lack of weather and rescue preparedness that elite athletes seem so moribund about, often not even conceptualizing, let alone including what many ocean kayakers take for granted as part of the deal, in their training planning. I'll try interviewing some of the participants in the weeks to come. I'd like to find some answers that will help other paddlers who race kayaks rather than view kayaks as a touring vessel with a preponderance of navigational/seamanship responsibilities required of themselves. I don't like hunting folks down so soon after the loss of friends, though the story may grow its own legs with a different publication in the mean time, rather than the one I'm prepared to work with. (I spent a lot of time working on a multirace Bay of Fundy incident that was displaced by a leading Canadian magazine's reporting on the same incident). I see a surgeon tomorrow, so we will see how my health pans out the next little while too. I miss writing. Doug Lloyd (down to 159 pounds) http://www.canada.com/victoriatimescolonist/news/story.html?id=fdfc908c-d15f-4078-903c-69fc8a3b4a2b&k=73849 > My contention is that the difference is implicit in the words "for > giggles" and "inevitable" capsize. > > These are very different circumstances than an "unexpected" capsize > in extremely rough cold water. Surf is one thing but for open water > to be rough enough to capsize a double and then think that the > occupants would be able to roll up is to me so unlikely as to be > uninteresting. If the occupants were such superb kayakers in the > first place they would not have rolled unless the conditions were > horrendous. Under such conditions people are tired and scared. They > cannot hold their breath for long. This is not a situation where it > is likely that they will have enough discipline for two people to > coordinate such a thing. For one person in a single is a lot easier. > > It takes a good deal of discipline for a single kayaker to roll. Many > people who know how to roll or even know how to roll in rough water > fail when such an event happens for real. WW paddlers roll as a > matter of course. It is common to tip over in WW. Oceans surfers -- > the same thing. > > However, sea kayaks rarely tip over unless the roll is deliberate. So > the sea kayaker who tips over unexpectedly is facing a new experience > (even if he is a good roller) which decreases the success rate. > > A double magnifies all these issues. Double REALLY rarely flip. Some > coordination between paddlers is required. (Even if one is assigned > the task of getting out) *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Hi all I have done very little in seakayak doubles, but a lot in K2. While a solo entry in a K1 is a bit tricky, it is not a problem with a capsized K2. First, a K2 does not have any bulk-heads, but with a person in each end, you take turns lifting the kayak. The person not lifting get submerged sure, but provides enough of a lift that it works. After the kayak is emptied, one person steadies the boat (hugging the end), while the other climbs up. Then the first person in the boat sculls like crazy while the second gets up. This we have done in conditions which were bad enough that we capsized in the first place. Transferring this technique to seakayak adds a few extra problems I guess, as the boat is much heavier (but also not full of water). Having a good PFD and perhaps a paddle float (or a bottle :-) could provide extra lift for the person doing both the lifting and holding the end. Rolling most K1&2 is hard as you have no knee support. But if you add that, I expect the roll well - at least they capsize easy enough.... -- Kasper *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Thursday 11 October 2007 07:20, Doug wrote: > Additionally, they maintain very little body fat, which often > potentiates poor outcomes after a long immersion in cold water. Faulkner mentions this in the interview, that 'these guys had very little body fat'. They did raft up, after two of the other kayaks had arrived at the scene of the first scuttle, but as both victims quickly turned hypothermic the decision was to rush them back to shore - the woman clinging on to Faulkner's kayak and the man being loaded into other kayaks center hatch, really too small, as there was no room for his legs, thus upsetting the balance, but both kayak raced towards shore, in following seas, to save their friends' lives. Sadly the top-heavy one weered off, turning cross the seas, for some reason, unknown to Faulkner (possibly heading for land closer than that downwind), and evidently quickly got waterfilled and sank. Thus all three ended up in the water, and only the one survived - possibly due to little more body fat - long enough to be picked up by the rescue boat alive! For guys like these Chillcheater's Aquatherm stuff sounds perfect - thin and much more flexible than neoprene, and yet warm enough! Tord *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On 11/10/07 10.09, Tord Eriksson <tord_at_tord.nu> wrote: > For guys like these Chillcheater's Aquatherm stuff sounds perfect - > thin and much more flexible than neoprene, and yet warm enough! Tord, I think you have a good point here. Many racers might not be aware that these materials are available. I think I'll try something like a full one piece shortie, might be cool enough for a heavy workout, while giving me a little extra lifespan in cold water. -- Kasper *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Tord Eriksson <tord_at_tord.nu> wrote: >> For guys like these Chillcheater's Aquatherm stuff sounds perfect - >> thin and much more flexible than neoprene, and yet warm enough! I use a Kokatat variant of this below my waist, and it is a lot better than tights or bare legs, but very much less insulating than 3 mm of neoprene. In the cold water they were in, I do not think it would extend their survival time much more than another half hour to an hour or so, if we are talking about full immersion. The critical problem for effecting self-rescue is that the hands go fast, and then you can not help yourself much. That is the benchmark to use, I suspect. I have about 15-20 minutes in cold water (45-50 F) of good time for my hands if swimming and immersed, wearing my Kokatat surf pants and a dry top and PFD (the PFD helps a lot in the insulation department). Wearing a farmer john, in lieu of the Kokatat pants, I've got maybe 2 hours of good time for use of my hands. Maybe more; I've surfed in this outfit for a couple of hours once or twice, spending a lot of time in the water (I'm a terrible kayak surfer!), and never lost any functionality of my hands. The theory is that in 15-20 minutes, I have ample time to effect a cockpit re-entry and self-rescue. Seems to be valid in the conditions I have tried, which were 2-foot wind chop, 12-15 knots of wind. In 30 knots of wind, I think I would be in trouble, though. Very difficult to re-enter in truly rough seas. -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
>Tord wrote: > >For guys like these Chillcheater's Aquatherm stuff sounds perfect - >thin and much more flexible than neoprene, and yet warm enough! Response: There can be many solutions to the potential problem - only if you see that there may be a problem. I fear that the above solution may be akin to suggesting to a free-climber that there is a better rope that can be used ;-) I had provided a back channel comment to Dave Kruger that I am now pasting below. After watching the video - I think for me the issue revolves more around the mind sets of racers versus ocean kayaking ... what I found most telling about the video was the comment that basically, "if you end up in the water, you've got a problem" (12:47); and"if you went in the water off there, you were more or less dead" (14:23). However, when you look at what preparation did they have for going into the water - which had to be at least a possibility given the weather they were in - they had no wet/dry suits; no communication or signalling devices, or flares; no plan of action as to what they would do if there was a capsize, no paddle tethers, etc., etc. - The mentality seems to be that because they are athletes, and strong, and maybe fast/efficient paddlers, they can accomplish anything - are "unbeatable" (Howells video). But no pre-trip respect for the risks. I have difficulty imagining anyone who has done any tripping (and beyond a sea kayaking novice), getting this far into a situation with this difficult weather without at least some of the foregoing considerations. I would expect a Doug Lloyd to be out in this weather - but he would have had a Plan A, Plan B, Plan C, down to at least G, according to one of his posts from several years ago - and he would have been able to articulate these plans, prior to heading out from shore. Even then, he has described some near misses, when many things each went wrong. This situation appears to be combined with the whole issue of group think and the tendency to lean towards increased risk because no one is comfortable being the one to say "No".- an issue that I think needs to be publicized and discussed more amongst groups. I wonder if every group, instead of a "designated driver" - needs to have a miner's canary - perhaps the weakest paddler, and whose role is to say whether they are comfortable and feel safe, or not. Or discuss what mitigation strategies - including not going - could be of help. Sam Isaacs *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
[Please remove all old content that is not pertinent to your reply including old headers and footers. It's list policy.... this post was modified to meet policy] Suspect that there are three components to being able to roll a tandem boat - one being boat design, the second being the skill of the paddlers, and the third being the efforts made at practicing a tandem roll. While I can't speak knowledgeably on boat design for double sea kayaks, I can relate some first-hand experience from paddling a decked C-2 in whitewater, which confirms the notion that individuals who have solid solo rolls - and have practiced tandem rolls - are much more likely to be able to roll a tandem boat in real conditions. While my primary whitewater boat is a kayak, mostly because I can't sit for any length of time on my ankles, the combination of having spent enough pool time in a C-1/OC-1 to learn a solid single-blade roll, coupled with my favorite kayaking partner being more comfortable in C-boats, found me both in the pool and on the river in a whitewater slalom C-2. As such, I believe that the key thing for tandem paddlers wanting to roll is to: a) know how to roll a solo boat - solidly and consistently b) on flipping, wait long enough for your partner to (mostly) be set up for the roll - which can be pre-arranged either by a countdown, tap(s) on the boat with the paddle, or a physical nudge of the bow paddler by the stern paddler. In the C-boats, one of us always had to change paddle grips prior to rolling, and I suspect that in tandem kayak it would also take some time to have both paddlers get the paddlers into the set up positiong. c) have the ability both to feel the partner initiate the roll, and to follow as soon as the rolling motion is felt. Play Hard, Erik Sprenne ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Livingston" <bearboat2_at_comcast.net> > However, sea kayaks rarely tip over unless the roll is deliberate. So > the sea kayaker who tips over unexpectedly is facing a new experience > (even if he is a good roller) which decreases the success rate. > > A double magnifies all these issues. Double REALLY rarely flip. Some > coordination between paddlers is required. (Even if one is assigned > the task of getting out) *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On rolling a double...I have a decent bilateral combat roll in my single, am 5'2", aging, female, and I found that it was remarkably not difficult to nail down a roll in a low volume double in the pool with either a 6' muscular male or a petite female as the other person. Both knew how to roll. If one person hugs the deck, the other person can perform the roll alone. I found that we quickly got the feel and timing needed to do a double roll after a couple of tries. Of course, this all takes practice, communication, planning and knowledge of one another ahead of time in order to take it out into the wild. What a terrible tragedy, and my heart goes out to those friends and family who are left behind. ~Amber *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Friday 12 October 2007 02:31, dave wrote: > Tord Eriksson <tord_at_tord.nu> wrote: > >> For guys like these Chillcheater's Aquatherm stuff sounds perfect - > >> thin and much more flexible than neoprene, and yet warm enough! > > I use a Kokatat variant of this below my waist, and it is a lot better > than tights or bare legs, but very much less insulating than 3 mm of > neoprene. I seem to recall that Chillcheater compares their Aquatherm stuff with 2 mm neoprene, when used without a fleece layer under. We swam in our Aquatherm Cags and trousers, with Transpire fleece under (another Chillcheater brand - looks like some Polartec stuff), in 3 degrees C sea water, after a roll, a few years back. Kept us nice and warm during the swim, but when we eventually crawled up on a rock, the close to freezing wind nearly killed us. After an to us unknown number of minutes (20-30 minutes, is my guess) we were rescued by a fisherman in his unheated boat! Yikes! I didn't know you could freeze that much! I shook so much that vision was difficult! But we were saved, and we even got the kayak back, where we had our warm jackets! Indoors we didn't get for another three-four hours, but that's another story. Happily we have not had any similar experiences since! We had thick fleece caps on our heads (Musto brand - no longer available), and Bering motorbike winter gloves on our hands, the rest was Chillcheater stuff, including the socks, both inner and outer. Never have felt the Chillcheater stuff clammy, especially if you wear the fleece stuff under, except, as usual, where the seals are: around wrists, neck and ankles (the latter we simply cut off, as they were a bit too tight - probably will send the trousers off to the maker one day to get socks sewn on - sounds like a good option, now available)! Yours, Tord *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Sam said (snip): > This situation appears to be combined with the whole issue of group think > and the tendency to lean towards increased risk because no one is > comfortable being the one to say "No".- an issue that I think needs to be > publicized and discussed more amongst groups. I wonder if every group, > instead of a "designated driver" - needs to have a miner's canary - > perhaps > the weakest paddler, and whose role is to say whether they are comfortable > and feel safe, or not. Or discuss what mitigation strategies - including > not going - could be of help. I think you have hit the nail on the head. I noticed there was a discussion on one of the other net groups regarding a though that solo paddling might be safer than paddling in a group because there is no "group think" mentality nor the more treacherous testosterone fuelling. I'm up to 30 pages of notes on the Howe Sound incident, and I haven't even contacted the paddlers yet. The coast guard has granted me one-on-one time with theRCC commander regarding the incident for my Sea Kayaker Magazine article I hope to do. I hope to get the skinny on what some of the other paddlers were thinking too, other than Faulkner, when I make further contacts. BTW, I do always have multiple back up plans when I head out in my kayak into rough conditions, and often take a moment to mentally ask myself what if things go wrong here, like, what are the ramifications Mr Doug. Good bush pilots do this all the time. As one who tends to like extreme conditions, I find a stronger proactive safety approach necessary. This may seem at odds with most folks understanding of paddling prudence, but perhaps I can illustrate it by mentioning I'm a down-town J-walker. Yes, guilty. But, I always look both ways, twice, proactively allow for unexpected circumstances like cars pulling out of parking spots, etc, and even look both ways crossing one way streets - you never know when someone may come down the wrong way. Funnily enough, most pedestrian accidents hear in Victoria happen at crosswalks and controlled intersections. I never trust a single driver, and alwayds do shoulder checks when walking across an intersection, including standing back from the curb to allow for wide truch turns. Well, I do all this when I'm not J-walking. :-) Okay, enough rambling. Doug Lloyd *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On 10/14/07, Doug Lloyd <douglloyd_at_shaw.ca> wrote: > > > I think you have hit the nail on the head. I noticed there was a > discussion > on one of the other net groups regarding a though that solo paddling might > be safer than paddling in a group because there is no "group think" > mentality nor the more treacherous testosterone fuelling. > > Funny that I was thinking the same thought regarding solo paddling possibly being safer than the "group think" of a macho group. I often paddle solo and while I am not into "Doug Lloydian" adventures I try to dress appropriately, have contingency plans and not be stupid. My friend Pam has taken a lot of kidding from me on her garbing up for an arctic adventure even when we were paddling on 75F Lake Washington but she also paddles solo a lot and her mindset is that if she prepares the same way for every trip then she is less likely to overlook something when it becomes important. That makes a lot of sense; even if I'm unlikely to do it. But then I paddle much more on a nice, warm inland lake. By the way, Doug: Looking both ways on a one-way street is not excessive caution; when I worked for the "diplomatic corps" overseas (not in Canada, I hasten to say) we would routinely drive the wrong way up a one-way street while watching in our rear-view mirrors for a possible tail. I'm sure I've taught many pedestrians in several countries to look both ways. Craig Jungers Royal City, WA (for 2 more months) *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Craig said (snip): > My friend Pam has taken a lot of kidding from me on her garbing > up for an > arctic adventure even when we were paddling on 75F Lake > Washington but she > also paddles solo a lot and her mindset is that if she prepares > the same way > for every trip then she is less likely to overlook something > when it becomes > important. That makes a lot of sense; even if I'm unlikely to do > it. But > then I paddle much more on a nice, warm inland lake. Hey, when it comes to me and the cold blue sea, I'm just a little pee in a giant galaxy. -Garb accordingly *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I attended a talk by the Massachusetts Secretary of Transportation many years ago. Someone asked him when Massachusetts would adopt a progressive pedestrian law like California's (requiring drivers to stop when a pedestrian is in a crosswalk). His reply was that MA's pedestrian death rate was lower than CA's. A fact that he attributed to MA pedestrians knowing they were taking their life in their hands every time they stepped off the curb :) Doug - did you ever live in MA? On 10/14/07, Doug Lloyd <douglloyd_at_shaw.ca> wrote: > Funnily enough, most pedestrian accidents hear in Victoria happen at > crosswalks and controlled intersections. I never trust a single driver, and > alwayds do shoulder checks when walking across an intersection, including > standing back from the curb to allow for wide truch turns. Well, I do all > this when I'm not J-walking. :-) Okay, enough rambling. > > Doug Lloyd *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Mark Perkins wrote: > His reply was that MA's > pedestrian death rate was lower than CA's. A fact that he attributed > to MA pedestrians knowing they were taking their life in their hands > every time they stepped off the curb :) Actually, in MA you're at some risk even standing on the sidewalk. ;) -- Steve Cramer Athens, GA http://www.savvypaddler.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
One of my pet peeves! As far as I'm concerned, there aren't ENOUGH pedestrian deaths here in California! Pedestrians here slow down when they cross the street just to prolong the joy of demanding their inalienable right to keep traffic to a crawl! Now if we could bump off a few lollygagging, ipod listening, latte swigging, holier-than-thou foot commuters, traffic might start flowing again. Heck, no one's supposed to be walking in California any way! Look both ways--twice--when I'm on the road... Mark -----Original Message----- On Behalf Of Mark Perkins His reply was that MA's pedestrian death rate was lower than CA's. A fact that he attributed to MA pedestrians knowing they were taking their life in their hands every time they stepped off the curb :) *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
This is pretty much what the floatplane pilots on Lake Union (in Seattle) think about paddlers. Craig Jungers Royal City, WA On 10/15/07, Mark Sanders <sandmarks_at_ca.rr.com> wrote: > > One of my pet peeves! > > As far as I'm concerned, there aren't ENOUGH pedestrian deaths here in > California! > Pedestrians here slow down when they cross the street just to prolong the > joy of demanding their inalienable right to keep traffic to a crawl! > Now if we could bump off a few lollygagging, ipod listening, latte > swigging, > holier-than-thou foot commuters, traffic might start flowing again. > Heck, no one's supposed to be walking in California any way! > > Look both ways--twice--when I'm on the road... > > Mark *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
It is my understanding that the serious sailing/boating crowd think we all have a death wish because, and I paraphrase here, dont know the rules of the road and float about in dark colored kayaks expecting boat traffic to go around them. Rumor has it that professional fishermen call us crayons and speed bumps. I wont say its undeserved. Jim et al On Oct 15, 2007, at 10:23 AM, Craig Jungers wrote: > This is pretty much what the floatplane pilots on Lake Union (in > Seattle) > think about paddlers. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Mark Sanders wrote: > One of my pet peeves! > > As far as I'm concerned, there aren't ENOUGH pedestrian deaths here in > California! > Pedestrians here slow down when they cross the street just to prolong the > joy of demanding their inalienable right to keep traffic to a crawl! > Now if we could bump off a few lollygagging, ipod listening, latte > swigging, > holier-than-thou foot commuters, traffic might start flowing again. > Heck, no one's supposed to be walking in California any way! Mark, this is precisely why the powerful pedestrian and bicycle lobbies don't want cars equipped with laser guided weaponry. Brad Crain *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Monday 15 October 2007 15:49, PaddleWise wrote: > Funnily enough, most pedestrian accidents hear in Victoria happen at > crosswalks and controlled intersections. I never trust a single driver, > and alwayds do shoulder checks when walking across an intersection, > including standing back from the curb to allow for wide truch turns. > Well, I do all this when I'm not J-walking. :-) Okay, enough rambling. Some more rambling: Here to most pedestrians get killed on, or near, crosswalks, so the clever guys from the authority responsible have simply filed off most of them with some clever machine (some sort of gigantic router), thus decreased the accident rate further! The weird thing is that it seems to work! Those crosswalks that are left are now mostly combined with bumps, poles and other mechnical and optical means to slow the drivers down to a crawl. Works till a big Citrokn comes swishing through! Tord *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On 10/15/07, Tord Eriksson <tord_at_tord.nu> wrote: > > > Here to most pedestrians get killed on, or near, crosswalks, so the clever > guys from the authority responsible have simply filed off most of them > with > some clever machine (some sort of gigantic router), thus decreased the > accident rate further! It's also a truism that most people who die in their sleep are found in bed. If we eliminate beds then we can save a lot of lives. > The weird thing is that it seems to work! Hmm. Those crosswalks that are left are now mostly combined with bumps, poles > and other mechnical and optical means to slow the drivers down to a crawl. If traffic slows to a standstill then accident rates approach zero. This is a well known law of traffic engineering (seriously!) and you may be living in a city where they apply it assiduously. Craig Jungers *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> On 10/15/07, Tord Eriksson <tord_at_tord.nu> wrote: > > > > > > Here to most pedestrians get killed on, or near, crosswalks, so the clever > > guys from the authority responsible have simply filed off most of them > > with > > some clever machine (some sort of gigantic router), thus decreased the > > accident rate further! > > > It's also a truism that most people who die in their sleep are found in bed. > If we eliminate beds then we can save a lot of lives. > > > > The weird thing is that it seems to work! > > > Hmm. > > Those crosswalks that are left are now mostly combined with bumps, poles > > and other mechnical and optical means to slow the drivers down to a crawl. > > > If traffic slows to a standstill then accident rates approach zero. This is > a well known law of traffic engineering (seriously!) and you may be living > in a city where they apply it assiduously. > > Craig Jungers I live in a city that seems to be suffering acute schizophrenic tendencies with regard to traffic flow. On the one hand, they removed pull-ins for buses, so they now stop in the middle of the traffic -- as an aid to slow down traffic; on the other hand, they are introducing roundabouts and other measures to reduce waiting time at four-way stops. Slow things down; speed things up: it's the old left hand / right hand problem rearing its ugly head. Or just normal city politics.... Had a friend go to the hospital emergency the other day. He was riding his bike home and got into an accident. The doctors told him that all the people who thought they were doing the planet a favour by riding their bikes around were actually putting their lives at risk. Apparently bicycle accidents are up near the top of the list at emergency rooms -- in Canada anyway. Other countries may do better. I avoid crosswalks. I don't trust 'em. Well, not the drivers. I prefer to wait well off to the side until I see the coast is clear (trying to get some paddling terminology involved here), and then I scoot across. And, speaking of paddling: I had the opportunity to rebuke a few paddlers locally the other day when they announced that they were hanging up their boats for the season. Hell, it's still well above zero (Centigrade) around here during the days -- and most nights even -- and there's still lots of paddling to be done. -- Darryl *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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