Last weekend we did some surfing in the fog between Nahant and Swampscott (massachusetts). We were having a great time, until one guy needed to get a ride home. http://www.nesurfski.net/ My version of the story differs slightly... Both boats on the cover page on nesurfski.net belong to friends. Last friday my friend, Bill K., put his Fenn Mako XT up for sale. He got 2 calls about it saturday, one while we were out surfing (for the above incident). Sunday morning someone drove out from New Paltz NY to look at his boat (a 4 to 5 hour drive each way) and bought the XT. 3 hours later Bill called me on his way back from the kayak shop. The Think Evo was on the roof of his car. He had only been boatless for 3 hours. Bill had been agonizing over whether to get a Huki S1R, the Epic V10 sport, or the Think Evo for about 3 months. Today we paddled out of Essex Mass. to the break between Crane's beach and Wingaersheek beach and took my Huki S1X and his Think Evo out to play in the residual waves from tropical storm Noel. I got a couple of wonderful rides, a 100+ yards on each ride, moving well enough to do nothing but brace and ride the wave, no paddling required. some days the surfing is good, other days it gets expensive.... Kirk -- Kirk Olsen *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On 11/4/07, Kirk Olsen <kork4_at_cluemail.com> wrote: He had only been boatless for 3 hours. I'm a little confused... how can you be boatless from selling just one kayak? Oh.... wait.... Craig Jungers Moses Lake, WA :) *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
How does one tell if their kayak is trim, is the something I should be aware of? I ask because I took my Sealion apart and put it back together with new hardware and rigging and I set is so the seat is all the way aft. I am 200# an 6'4". Thanks for your thoughts Mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Hi Mike, On Sunday, November 04, 2007, at 10:06:44 AM PST, you wrote: > How does one tell if their kayak is trim, is the something I should > be aware of? It seems to me that the important thing about trim is boat behavior and handling. In some of the Mariner boats, Matt and Cam installed a sliding seat, so that the trim could be adjusted with the placement/weight of the paddler (in addition to careful packing). For boats without a sliding seat like that, careful weight distribution in packing is the way to go. You really have to get to know how your boat is balanced "as is", and how it behaves, then adjust accordingly. Most of my paddles are local day trips, so my boats are usually very lightly packed to begin with; just the stuff I might need for the day. Since my boats can have a tendency to weathercock in certain conditions, I might put a bit of ballast just behind the aft bulkhead, shifting the CB slightly aft. Some People will place ballast even further aft...it all depends on the boat, the conditions, and what you're happy with in terms of boat handling. -- Melissa *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
To me the way to solve the problem of trimming or fine tuning the boat with load is straightforward in kayaks with skeg. You just place your load almost evenly with a tendency of more weight forward, and the kayak will weathercock. Lowering the skeg can compensate for that, and you can adjust the skeg deployment to reach a neutral condition for the wind and waves present. If unloaded, skeg kayaks are designed to weathercock and small adjustment of the skeg will give the right trimming. I think the skeg is a good contribution to kayaking. Best Regards, Rafael. Mexico *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Paddlewisers, For me trim is all about how the kayak handles. In my kayak, about 2/3 of the weight has to go in the rear hatch, and being off trim even by about 10 pounds can have an effect, such as increased lee or weathercocking and broaching. As Rafael said, if you're a bit bow heavy, a skeg can be lowered to compensate. Since I haven't installed skegs in my kayaks, I carry a dedicated water/trim bag on trips when I do long crossings, and when necessary, I fill it up with ocean water and put it on the front or back deck to adjust the trim for better boat handling. The kayak is really stable with camping gear in it, so the higher center of gravity with the bag on top of the deck isn't a problem and actually makes the kayak easier to edge. Photo of water/trim bag being used on a crossing: http://duane.smugmug.com/gallery/2983329#161528726 Duane Southern California *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Hi Mike, In case you (or perhaps some lurkers) are not familiar with the effect of CG placement on your paddling experience, here's what happened to me last year. We were on a three-day camping excursion down the Peace River here in Florida, and we carried our water as well as the normal camping gear. My 14 ft Wilderness Systems Cape Horn was loaded to the gills and then some. But since it was a flatwater trip I didn't mind. Day 1 was great, my packing strategy worked. No issues. Day 2, I drank a couple gallons of water by then, and packed everything where it was the day before. The empty water containers were ahead of my foot pegs in the cockpit where they had been before, but full of water. This day I couldn't get the boat to go straight. Anytime I put any speen on, I mean like three mpg or so, the bow would fall off to one side or the other. Quite frustrating. I was glad when we stopped for the day. Day 3, suspecting that I was loaded too heavy aft, and having consumed more water, I put what water I had left forward, determined to prevent the problem I had the day before. And that I did. I couldn't get the boat to turn without a LOT of effort on my part. It was obvious I had too much weight forward this time. I still couldn't tell you by looking when I have the boat loaded properly. But I can tell you by paddling it when I've got it wrong! Hope this helps. Carey -----Original Message----- From: owner-paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net [mailto:owner-paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net]On Behalf Of Melissa Reese Sent: Tuesday, November 06, 2007 2:10 AM To: Paddlewise Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] A question of trim Hi Mike, On Sunday, November 04, 2007, at 10:06:44 AM PST, you wrote: > How does one tell if their kayak is trim, is the something I should > be aware of? It seems to me that the important thing about trim is boat behavior and handling. In some of the Mariner boats, Matt and Cam installed a sliding seat, so that the trim could be adjusted with the placement/weight of the paddler (in addition to careful packing). For boats without a sliding seat like that, careful weight distribution in packing is the way to go. You really have to get to know how your boat is balanced "as is", and how it behaves, then adjust accordingly. Most of my paddles are local day trips, so my boats are usually very lightly packed to begin with; just the stuff I might need for the day. Since my boats can have a tendency to weathercock in certain conditions, I might put a bit of ballast just behind the aft bulkhead, shifting the CB slightly aft. Some People will place ballast even further aft...it all depends on the boat, the conditions, and what you're happy with in terms of boat handling. -- Melissa *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Easy fix, just refill the containers with river water to maintain your perfect trim. Or add Genuine Florida Ballast Rocks, which tend to be a little lighter than the Canadian variety. Steve Carey Parks wrote: > Hi Mike, > > In case you (or perhaps some lurkers) are not familiar with the effect of CG > placement on your paddling experience, here's what happened to me last year. > We were on a three-day camping excursion down the Peace River here in > Florida, and we carried our water as well as the normal camping gear. My 14 > ft Wilderness Systems Cape Horn was loaded to the gills and then some. But > since it was a flatwater trip I didn't mind. > > Day 1 was great, my packing strategy worked. No issues. > > Day 2, I drank a couple gallons of water by then, and packed everything > where it was the day before. The empty water containers were ahead of my > foot pegs in the cockpit where they had been before, but full of water. This > day I couldn't get the boat to go straight. Anytime I put any speen on, I > mean like three mpg or so, the bow would fall off to one side or the other. > Quite frustrating. I was glad when we stopped for the day. > > Day 3, suspecting that I was loaded too heavy aft, and having consumed more > water, I put what water I had left forward, determined to prevent the > problem I had the day before. And that I did. I couldn't get the boat to > turn without a LOT of effort on my part. It was obvious I had too much > weight forward this time. > > I still couldn't tell you by looking when I have the boat loaded properly. > But I can tell you by paddling it when I've got it wrong! > > Hope this helps. > > Carey -- Steve Cramer Athens, GA http://www.savvypaddler.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On 11/6/07, Steve Cramer <cramersec_at_charter.net> wrote: > > Easy fix, just refill the containers with river water to maintain your > perfect trim. This falls under my rule to never stop at the water dispenser on your way back from filling the urine sample cup. Craig Jungers Moses Lake, WA *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Just sip water until trim is just right, then STOP. Brad Crain Portland, Oregon Quoting Steve Cramer <cramersec_at_charter.net>: > Easy fix, just refill the containers with river water to maintain your > perfect trim. Or add Genuine Florida Ballast Rocks, which tend to be a > little lighter than the Canadian variety. > > Steve > > Carey Parks wrote: >> Hi Mike, >> >> In case you (or perhaps some lurkers) are not familiar with the effect of CG >> placement on your paddling experience, here's what happened to me last year. >> We were on a three-day camping excursion down the Peace River here in >> Florida, and we carried our water as well as the normal camping gear. My 14 >> ft Wilderness Systems Cape Horn was loaded to the gills and then some. But >> since it was a flatwater trip I didn't mind. >> >> Day 1 was great, my packing strategy worked. No issues. >> >> Day 2, I drank a couple gallons of water by then, and packed everything >> where it was the day before. The empty water containers were ahead of my >> foot pegs in the cockpit where they had been before, but full of water. This >> day I couldn't get the boat to go straight. Anytime I put any speen on, I >> mean like three mpg or so, the bow would fall off to one side or the other. >> Quite frustrating. I was glad when we stopped for the day. >> >> Day 3, suspecting that I was loaded too heavy aft, and having consumed more >> water, I put what water I had left forward, determined to prevent the >> problem I had the day before. And that I did. I couldn't get the boat to >> turn without a LOT of effort on my part. It was obvious I had too much >> weight forward this time. >> >> I still couldn't tell you by looking when I have the boat loaded properly. >> But I can tell you by paddling it when I've got it wrong! >> >> Hope this helps. >> >> Carey > > > -- > Steve Cramer > Athens, GA *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
[Please remove all old content that is not pertinent to your reply including old headers and footers. It's list policy.... this post was modified to meet policy] I suppose that would work, but I prefer a lighter boat, so I just need to adjust things a bit here and there. The trick is knowing that it needs doing. C -----Original Message----- From: Steve Cramer Easy fix, just refill the containers with river water to maintain your perfect trim. Or add Genuine Florida Ballast Rocks, which tend to be a little lighter than the Canadian variety. Steve *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Mike, I prefere the handling of my kayak with more weight astern. So, I cut my seat out, fiberglassed down the back of the cockpit rim to make a solid backrest slightly padded with foam, and this has worked for me. I move my water to the front if I need neutral trim. How do you tell the trim of your boat now? Well, but the seat back where it was. The rigging couldn't have added that much weight, unless you added really heavy stuff. I though I was the only one doing that - other than fishers. Doug L > How does one tell if their kayak is trim, is the something I should be > aware of? I ask because I took my Sealion apart and put it back together > with new hardware and rigging and I set is so the seat is all the way aft. > I am 200# an 6'4". > > Thanks for your thoughts > > Mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
"Carey Parks" <carey_at_jimparksfamily.com> wrote. <snip> >>>>>>>Day 2, I drank a couple gallons of water by then, and packed everything where it was the day before. The empty water containers were ahead of my foot pegs in the cockpit where they had been before, but full of water. This day I couldn't get the boat to go straight. Anytime I put any speen on, I mean like three mpg or so, the bow would fall off to one side or the other. Quite frustrating. I was glad when we stopped for the day. Day 3, suspecting that I was loaded too heavy aft, and having consumed more water, I put what water I had left forward, determined to prevent the problem I had the day before. And that I did. I couldn't get the boat to turn without a LOT of effort on my part. It was obvious I had too much weight forward this time. I still couldn't tell you by looking when I have the boat loaded properly. But I can tell you by paddling it when I've got it wrong!<<<<<<<<<< Carey, are you sure you are remembering this right? What you described would likely work just the opposite way. More weight in the bow tend to make a boat squirrelly and increases weatherhelm. More weight in the back tends to make for stiffer tracking and less weatherhelm (or even a little lee helm if overdone). There is a long discussion in our "Owners" manual on our website about when and in what conditions bow or stern heavy trim is desirable, so those who are interested can read that (it starts about 1/5 of the way into the manual). I won't repeat myself here. To answer the original question, most would consider proper trim to be the trim at which the boat is most efficient. For a kayak that would be when the non-rockered area of the bottom (in the middle) is level (front to back) when the kayak is floating at rest. A simple level placed on the hull in front of the seat can probably tell you if the hull is level. When we designed the original Mariner we did a lot of math (Simpson's rule springs to mind) in order to figure out where the center of gravity of the paddler plus boat should be for level trim. That allowed us to put the seating position and cockpit in place before getting the boat wet. After that we took a shortcut and just sat in the plug hull in the water with a carpenter's level between our knees to determine the seating position and cockpit placement. That said, for your Sea Lion you might find that while it slows the top speed slightly (and possibly makes paddling at cruising speed not quite as efficient) and makes for more pounding in head seas moving the seat further back as you did (a stern heavy trim) will likely improve the handling of your boat in sidewinds and following seas (less weatherhem and reduce broaching). It will also make the kayak a little stiffer tracking (and harder to turn up into a high wind when it is unladen). A side benefit will be to make it easier to get in and out of the cockpit. Lay-back rolls may not be as easy if the seatback is too close to the rear of the cockpit. Most kayaks become bow heavy when loaded with gear. Think of the kayak like a teeter-totter with the fulcum about in your crotch. Since your legs stick out forward much more than your back does to the rear, gear going into the front is further out the teeter-totter from the fulcrum so it takes less to keep it level. With a full gear load it is very hard to put too much of the weight in the stern. All water and the densest gear bags should all go in to the stern. Matt Broze www.marinerkayaks.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
You are welcome. I'll be watching for the report! Carey -----Original Message----- From: Mike Euritt [mailto:sixteenfeet_at_sbcglobal.net] I still couldn't tell you by looking when I have the boat loaded properly. But I can tell you by paddling it when I've got it wrong! Hope this helps. Carey Carey, thank you so much, this was exactly what I was looking for. i am a new paddler, got lessons and rentry skills but short on real experience. When I took the seat out, I thought I would replace it, but decided I'd rather go paddling than work on it, gee imagine that. Suddenly I an tracking great, all I did was maybe move the seat back 1/2 inch or so. I'll give some credit to continued work on my stroke, thanks to Brent Reitz dvd, but the change is amazing. Next time I go out, I'll move the seat forward all the way, maybe 3-4 inches and see what happens then. Buy I have something to look for now. Thanks so much Mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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