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From: Mark Sanders <sandmarks_at_ca.rr.com>
subject: [Paddlewise] Rechargeable Battery Life
Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2007 07:47:54 -0800
Any general consensus on the life of a charge on NiMH batteries? I mean, if
I charge them and leave them sitting around without using them, how long
before the charge degrades to a point they need to be recharged. Inquiring
minds want to know!

www.SandMarks.net
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From: Darryl <Darryl.Johnson_at_sympatico.ca>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Rechargeable Battery Life
Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2007 11:54:09 -0500
> Any general consensus on the life of a charge on NiMH batteries? I mean, if
> I charge them and leave them sitting around without using them, how long
> before the charge degrades to a point they need to be recharged. Inquiring
> minds want to know!
> 
> www.SandMarks.net

I've had quite bad results with both alkaline and NiMH rechargeables. 
They seem to go flat in a very short time. Days, in some cases.

But when I researched the issue -- some time ago now -- the concensus 
of opinion seemed to be that they should hold their charge quite a 
bit longer than mine were doing. One suggestion was that my charging 
unit -- a relatively cheap unit that I bought at the camera shop 
where I bought my digital Canon camera -- wasn't doing a proper job 
of charging.

I've been meaning to try to find one of the chargers that I've seen 
recommended on some of the digital camera review sites, to see if 
that improves the situation any. But it keeps drifting down near the 
bottom of my "to-do" list. <sigh>

-- 
  Darryl
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From: David Flory <daflory_at_tx.rr.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Rechargeable Battery Life
Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2007 11:51:51 -0600
On Dec 5, 2007, at 10:54 AM, Darryl wrote:

> I've been meaning to try to find one of the chargers that I've seen
> recommended on some of the digital camera review sites, to see if
> that improves the situation any. But it keeps drifting down near the
> bottom of my "to-do" list. <sigh>
>
I've had very good experience with Maha Powerex AA batteries from <http://thomasdistributing.com/ 
 >
The ones I'm using are Powerex 2700 mah, and usually last thru' about  
200 pictures on my Minolta Dimage 7 camera. Sitting on the shelf/in  
the drawer they need to be recharged after a couple of months.

Maha has new NMh battery line called imedion which has very low self  
discharge and comes charged up. They claim that after a year the a  
fully charged battery will retain 85% charge. The con is that they  
only have 800 mah AA batteries at this time.

My charger that I use now is a Maha MH-C401FS which has 4 independant  
charging circuits and does AA and AAA batteries from 1 to 4 at a time,  
sizes can be mixed.

Fair winds and happy bytes, Dave Flory, Flower Mound, TX, U.S.A.
--
Speak softly, study Aikido, & you won't need to carry a big stick!
See my photos _at_ <http://homepage.mac.com/dflory>
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From: Joe P. <jpylka_at_earthlink.net>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Rechargeable Battery Life
Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2007 11:59:41 -0500 (GMT-05:00)
I've been using them for about a year -- AA cells mostly for digital cameras.  I'm not thrilled.  I estimate about 2-3 months and I have to recharge if they're just sitting on the shelf. Otherwise very short life in the camera. 
     What I don't have is a good way to measure this.  Voltage drop over time is not that large, though it seems likely ability to supply current would be a better measure.  Anyone have any thoughts about this?  Maybe look at voltage drop for, say, 10% of rated maH...
     For crucial situations I now always carry Li cells for backup.  Expensive, but it works.

Joe P.

-----Original Message-----
>From: Mark Sanders <sandmarks_at_ca.rr.com>
>Any general consensus on the life of a charge on NiMH batteries? I mean, if
>I charge them and leave them sitting around without using them, how long
>before the charge degrades to a point they need to be recharged. Inquiring
>minds want to know!
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From: <blackey_at_sonic.net>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Rechargeable Battery Life
Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2007 10:57:28 -0800 (PST)
NiMH are currently the best "type" of battery available.  In another
lifetime I sold cellular phones and we had the first generation of
batteries to power them.  I watched the market develop from the old
alkaline to hydride to the now Nickle Metal Hydride that are still in use
today.  They last a lot longer and are better batteries but the old rules
about using batteries still apply.

Only let the battery stay in the charger for the period that it takes to
charge it fully.  Do not sit it in the charger indefinitely thinking that
it will be ready to go when you are.  What you are doing is burning it up.
 Think of a water kettle placed on the stove.  You turn the heat on and
eventually you will boil the water out of the kettle.  Heat on low, high,
does not matter, that kettle will go dry!  Same thing with a battery.

Also, the best thing to do is to charge the battery, and then use it up
completely.  And I mean use it up totally.  Turn whatever the device is on
and leave it on till the battery dies.  Don't go using it for a while and
then charging it back up again.  This "topping it off" constantly is just
the same as putting it back on the stove.  Your going to boil it out
sooner.

Turn it on, leave it on, recharge it for the period it takes to complete a
full charge.  If you charge it and sit it on the shelf it will retain the
charge for a period of time, figure a 20 percent discharge rate a week.
But Murphy's Law states that when you need it, it will be near the end of
it's discharge cycle and fail on you when you need it the most.  And
counting on using them in this manner is setting yourself up for a
failure.  I charge my units up, use them, and then make sure they are
depleated and then charge them up prior to use again.  If this is going to
go over a long period between usage, I do it about twice a month to keep
things active in them.

My units last for quite a while because I do this.  Also know that
batteries have a life cycle of their own.  Two or three years out and they
are going to die of old age no matter how well they are used.
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From: alex <al.m_at_3web.net>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Rechargeable Battery Life
Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2007 14:20:20 -0800
> Any general consensus on the life of a charge on NiMH batteries? I mean,
if
> I charge them and leave them sitting around without using them, how long
> before the charge degrades to a point they need to be recharged. Inquiring
> minds want to know!

1st question:
It depends on how low current your unit can take, and still be functional.
NiMH are reportedly better than alcaline - in charge retaining time as well.
I have a 4AA submersible Princeton Tech LED flashlight, with alcaline
rechargeables.  It sits in my daypack all the time, just in case, and LED
still produces a usable amount of light after several months, sometimes
after a year, without recharge.  But this is only because it can take a very
low current.  Other LEDs, not to mention GPS, wouldn't function at all with
these AA unless recharged.

2nd question:
Very good professional advice from Blackey here.  You should NOT recharge
them when the charge degrades to a certain amount, - but only after you've
made sure that they are completely discharged. Turn it on and leave until it
stops working.

I prefer carrying a 4-pack of long-life non-rechargeables as a backup,
because rechargeables are complicated things with those cyclical processes
going inside, and temperature affects their life too, and you may suddenly
find that newly replaced NiMH (charged a few days ago) stopped working after
a very short period, much sooner than you anticipated.
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From: <Rick.Sylvia_at_ferguson.com>
subject: RE: [Paddlewise] Rechargeable Battery Life
Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2007 11:08:42 -0500
> Any general consensus on the life of a charge on NiMH batteries? 

Mine are only lasting about a week, but I believe that I'm having either
battery or charger issues.  Therefore, I'm in the market for a quality
charger, as opposed to the Energizer charger I got with a package of
about 8 batteries.

So, in addition to Marks question, does anyone have recommendations on
quality chargers and brands of batteries?

Rick
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From: Craig Jungers <crjungers_at_gmail.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Rechargeable Battery Life
Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2007 20:33:05 -0800
I think an ideal battery charger would first discharge the battery (or
batteries) almost completely (under controlled load) before starting the
charging cycle. Ham radio operators have designed several such chargers
(many of them back in the NiCad days) and those designs should be out there
somewhere.

The disadvantage to a "good" battery charger is that it's probably not a
"fast" battery charger and that's what seems to be driving the market. The
discharge cycle would take extra time and probably the best charge cycle
(which would be in stages in order to control heat buildup) would also take
extra time.

I like the idea of taking along good Alkaline batteries.

Is Michael Daly still around? He always seems to have a good handle on these
sorts of questions.


Craig Jungers
Moses Lake, WA


On Dec 5, 2007 8:08 AM, <Rick.Sylvia_at_ferguson.com> wrote:

> > Any general consensus on the life of a charge on NiMH batteries?
>
> Mine are only lasting about a week, but I believe that I'm having either
> battery or charger issues.  Therefore, I'm in the market for a quality
> charger, as opposed to the Energizer charger I got with a package of
> about 8 batteries.
>
> So, in addition to Marks question, does anyone have recommendations on
> quality chargers and brands of batteries?
>
> Rick
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From: Gary J. MacDonald <garyj_at_rogers.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Rechargeable Battery Life
Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2007 07:15:35 -0500
My posts are delayed as always, but when this does get through to the list:
I have a charger from Radio Shack (The Source in Canada) that discharges 
batteries first (called "conditioning"), then charges quickly.  Some 
older NiCads that I have are charged in very few minutes, showing how 
much their capacity has declined with age.

GaryJ

Craig Jungers wrote:
> I think an ideal battery charger would first discharge the battery (or
> batteries) almost completely (under controlled load) before starting the
> charging cycle. Ham radio operators have designed several such chargers
> (many of them back in the NiCad days) and those designs should be out there
> somewhere.
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From: Darryl <Darryl.Johnson_at_sympatico.ca>
subject: RE: [Paddlewise] Rechargeable Battery Life
Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2007 08:17:09 -0500
> > Any general consensus on the life of a charge on NiMH batteries? 
> 
> Mine are only lasting about a week, but I believe that I'm having either
> battery or charger issues.  Therefore, I'm in the market for a quality
> charger, as opposed to the Energizer charger I got with a package of
> about 8 batteries.
> 
> So, in addition to Marks question, does anyone have recommendations on
> quality chargers and brands of batteries?
> 
> Rick

The Maha units that Eric mentions in his post are the ones I've seen 
recommended. I notice on the web pages for the Thomas Battery site 
that they also have some of the batteries that were recommended as 
well: the Powerx and the Sanyos.

I may have to bite the bullet and order one of these chargers online, 
as they don't seem to be available at local stores (the ones I 
frequent).

-- 
  Darryl
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From: Bruce Grubbs <mail_at_brucegrubbs.com>
subject: RE: [Paddlewise] Rechargeable Battery Life
Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2007 07:06:56 -0700 (MST)
I've used Maha NiMH AA batteries and chargers for years, in ham radio and
photography. They are good products and the company stands behind them. I
had one charger die after several years, and they replaced it immediately.
I have a 401 smart charger for AA's and a 777Plus charger which will
charge almost anything. A big advantage of NiMH's over NiCads is that they
don't suffer from memory effect, so you don't have to fully discharge them
before charging.

Bruce Grubbs
Flagstaff, AZ
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From: Erik S <sprenne_at_netnitco.net>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Rechargeable Battery Life
Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2007 00:37:48 -0600
> So, in addition to Marks question, does anyone have recommendations on
> quality chargers and brands of batteries?
>



Did a bit of research on rechargeables before switching over several years 
ago, and ended up purchasing this charger:
http://www.thomas-distributing.com/maha-powerex-mh-c204w-nimh-battery-charger.htm

based largely on the review here:
http://www.imaging-resource.com/ACCS/C204W/C204WA.HTM

I've been happy with the charger over the last two years, and have not yet 
used the conditioning feature, though I probably should on some of my older 
batteries.

Looks like there is also a newer maha charger - which will even show the 
actual capacity of the batteries - amongst other bells and whistles:
http://www.thomas-distributing.com/maha-mh-c9000-battery-charger.php


no affiliation with any of the sites, just a satisfied customer

Erik S
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From: Tord Eriksson <tord_at_tord.nu>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Rechargeable Battery Life
Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2007 01:02:16 +0100
On Thursday 06 December 2007 13:18, Mark wrote:

> Any general consensus on the life of a charge on NiMH batteries? I mean,
> if I charge them and leave them sitting around without using them, how
> long before the charge degrades to a point they need to be recharged.
> Inquiring minds want to know!

All types of batteries discharge over time, and very rarely
are they any good after eight years (the hydrogen ions -
essential in all kinds of batteries - have by then all disappeared
from the batteries)!

Having used electrically powered models for decades I have
used a lot - from Sealed Lead Acid, to LiPos!

NiMHs are the worst I know of - LiPos are the best (years 
before they totally discharged)! Lead-acid and NiCads
somewhere in between!

On the other hand, LiPos are the most difficult to charge
safely (you need a charger AND an equalizer), and slowly
but sure loses capacity (depending on how many times
you charge them). But LiPos have almost no selfdischarge, 
thus are excellent for electric bilge pumps, and other safety 
equipment! If you short them they explode and set fire
to their surroundings - thus mechanically sensitive!

So I use LiPos in my model aircraft, and SLA (sealed lead 
acid battery) in the kayak - if the plane goes up in smoke, 
so be it, but I sure don't want the kayak catch fire - ever -
and even less when anyone is in it!

Tord

PS For things I use often I use NiMHs, like my electric tools!
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From: alex <al.m_at_3web.net>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Rechargeable Battery Life
Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2007 18:55:50 -0800
> I have a 401 smart charger for AA's and a 777Plus charger which will
> charge almost anything. A big advantage of NiMH's over NiCads is that they
> don't suffer from memory effect, so you don't have to fully discharge them
> before charging.

NiMH seems to be what everybody's buying now (and Li for longer charge
life).  But I didn't know that NiMH are free of he "memory problems" and
therefore don't need to be discharged.  Is it really so?
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From: Tord Eriksson <tord_at_tord.nu>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Rechargeable Battery Life
Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2007 12:42:34 +0100
This is the charger I've used for years (over a decade), recommended by 
pros - and as yet no pack has died on me:

http://www.nesail.com/detail.php?productID=2186

A bit expensive, but very good, US-made, and foolproof!

Charges anything from 4 AAs to eight (if my memory serves me right)
and while the plugs a dedicated for RC equipment they can easily be 
replaced by others! Mine is this original version, so it can't handle 
anything but NiCads and NiMHs, but there are others!

And as you can see - nothing to set!

Here's a link to the manufacturer, Peak Industries: 
http://www.siriuselectronics.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=157

And a link to their full range:

http://www.siriuselectronics.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=1

A Four cell LiPo (14.8V) could be useful in driving a kayak's bilge pump, 
but as you need access to the battery while charging (remember the 
Equalizer, that I mentioned in an earlier mail) it isn't very practical -
and the fire hazard is real, say if the pump's motor seizes, due
to FOD (that is, something get's jammed in the pump), effectively
shorting the battery (fuse is a possible remedie)!

Tord

PS I have no link to the Peak Electronics company (ex-Sirius Electronics).
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From: alex <al.m_at_3web.net>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Rechargeable Battery Life
Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2007 23:30:52 -0800
> This is the charger I've used for years (over a decade), recommended by
> pros - and as yet no pack has died on me:
>
> http://www.nesail.com/detail.php?productID=2186
>
> A bit expensive, but very good, US-made, and foolproof!

Tord, it is really expensive, but I'm worried about their claim of 10
minutes time.  Maha C401 charger, referred to in another post, has 2 modes -
gentle and fast (the latter with higher current apparently), and they
recommend using "fast" only when you are really in hurry, because it
shortens battery life by some undetermined amount of time.  And this "fast"
mode of Maha is still 100 minutes, - not 10. (Gentle mode takes 5 hours).
It appears that Maha and their Powerex batteries are quite at the cutting
edge, so they must be at least partially right.
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From: Tord Eriksson <tord_at_tord.nu>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Rechargeable Battery Life
Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2007 13:15:01 +0100
On Sunday 09 December 2007 08:30, alex wrote:
> > This is the charger I've used for years (over a decade), recommended
> > by pros - and as yet no pack has died on me:
> >
> > http://www.nesail.com/detail.php?productID=2186
> >
> > A bit expensive, but very good, US-made, and foolproof!
>
> Tord, it is really expensive, but I'm worried about their claim of 10
> minutes time.  Maha C401 charger, referred to in another post, has 2
> modes - gentle and fast (the latter with higher current apparently), and
> they recommend using "fast" only when you are really in hurry, because
> it shortens battery life by some undetermined amount of time.  And this
> "fast" mode of Maha is still 100 minutes, - not 10. (Gentle mode takes 5
> hours). It appears that Maha and their Powerex batteries are quite at
> the cutting edge, so they must be at least partially right.

I definitely think this ten minute claim can't be sponsored by Peak -
I usually have my small packs connected overnight :-)! Can't claim 
the Sirius is a really fast charger (even if it is a fast charger, very 
different to trickle chargers, like the wall chargers we have a lot of 
today), like some of those available today, but it sure gets the most 
out of your batteries!

Here's Peak's text:

http://www.siriuselectronics.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1&products_id=10

Nothing about 10 minutes here :-)!

NSP is entirely to blame!

Tord
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From: Tord Eriksson <tord_at_tord.nu>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Rechargeable Battery Life
Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2007 13:08:18 +0100
On Friday 07 December 2007 04:39, Alex wrote:
> NiMH seems to be what everybody's buying now (and Li for longer charge
> life).  But I didn't know that NiMH are free of he "memory problems" and
> therefore don't need to be discharged.  Is it really so?

In essence, yes! But occasionally you should cycle them, as they have
a tiny memory effect!

Best FAQ, Red's battery clinic: http://www.rcbatteryclinic.com/

As Red is an elederly man, the site is not fully up to date, but you can 
believe what you read here - no doubt about it! 

Tord
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From: Mike Jackson <mhj_at_smus.ca>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Rechargeable Battery Life
Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2007 10:08:22 -0800
I have had problems with Energizer NiMH ones losing their charge, but 
not with Eneloop ones. The sanyo eneloop ones have a better reputation.
I also carry Li cells as backup.

At 07:47 AM 05/12/2007, you wrote:
>Any general consensus on the life of a charge on NiMH batteries? I mean, if
>I charge them and leave them sitting around without using them, how long
>before the charge degrades to a point they need to be recharged. Inquiring
>minds want to know!
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From: <cholst_at_bitstream.net>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Rechargeable Battery Life
Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2007 12:50:39 -0600 (CST)
The Sanyo Eneloop low-self discharge NiMH batteries appear to be the same
technology as the Maha Imedion and the GP ReCykos. The Thomas Distributing
Web site even mistakenly refers to the Maha Imedion as "eneloop" from time
to time. For all I know, they are all made by the same factory. Though the
Eneloop batteries do indeed have lower capacities than the older NiMH
batteries, their low rate of self-discharge apparently more than makes up
for it, depending on how long they sit around before you use them. For an
interesting independent test of the new Eneloop batteries, see

http://www.stefanv.com/electronics/sanyo_eneloop.html.

Chuck Holst
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From: Gary J. MacDonald <garyj_at_rogers.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Rechargeable Battery Life
Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2007 19:32:19 -0500
Supposedly 1% per day.
Like others I find them to go down (at least from useful levels) in 2 
months (60 days = 60%??)

That said, if they are in my "charged" pile and ready to go, they never 
stay there more than a few weeks before they go out for something.

As for voltage drop, one thing with the rechargeables is thattheir 
discharge curve is very flat.  So you get little warning that they are 
low, and then they are flat flat flat.  Unlike regular alkalines which 
drop sharply, then plateau, then tail off slowly.

I find that NiMH are so cheap these days that I just carry spares and 
let it go at that.

GaryJ

Mark Sanders wrote:
> Any general consensus on the life of a charge on NiMH batteries? I mean, if
> I charge them and leave them sitting around without using them, how long
> before the charge degrades to a point they need to be recharged. Inquiring
> minds want to know!
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From: Tord Eriksson <tord_at_tord.nu>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Rechargeable Battery Life
Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2007 21:30:47 +0100
On Sunday 09 December 2007 13:11, Craig wrote:
> I think an ideal battery charger would first discharge the battery (or
> batteries) almost completely (under controlled load) before starting the
> charging cycle. Ham radio operators have designed several such chargers
> (many of them back in the NiCad days) and those designs should be out
> there somewhere.

The best way handling NiMHs isn't the best way of handling NiCads, as
mr Isodor Buchmann at BatteryUniversity.com. He puts it like this:

    * Do not leave a nickel-based battery in a charger for more than a few 
days, even on trickle charge.

    * Exercise nickel-cadmium every 1 to 2 months and nickel-metal-hydride 
every 3 months. Running the battery down in the equipment may do this 
also.

MY comment: And then he continues like this - ATTENTION EVERYONE:

    * Do not discharge the battery before each recharge. This puts undue 
stress on the battery.

    * Avoid getting the battery too hot during charge. The temperature 
should only rise for a short moment at full charge, then cool off. 

Modern fast chargers contains fans, some have temperature sensors, some 
advanced types of battery packs have integral temperture sensors and 
voltage monitoring, built-in! More info at BatteryUniversity.com!

A good comparion of the various types available Buchmann gives us as well -
there are further types availble today, but those are not very common, yet:

http://www.batteryuniversity.com/partone-3.htm


Tord


>
> The disadvantage to a "good" battery charger is that it's probably not a
> "fast" battery charger and that's what seems to be driving the market.
> The discharge cycle would take extra time and probably the best charge
> cycle (which would be in stages in order to control heat buildup) would
> also take extra time.
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From: alex <al.m_at_3web.net>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Rechargeable Battery Life
Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2007 17:11:36 -0800
> I definitely think this ten minute claim can't be sponsored by Peak -
> I usually have my small packs connected overnight :-)!

You're right - sorry. The seller's info is a bit misleading. It says "In
about 10 minutes this charger gives you MORE CHARGE with LESS HEAT than your
overnight wall-wart charger!"  (quoted as is, with caps). When reading it
carefully, - it doesn't say that it charges the battery in 10 minutes. What
a pitch... I've seen el-cheapo chargers with currents 50mA, i.e. 24 hours to
charge a 1200 mAH battery.  Of course, Sirius provides more charge in less
time than $2 chinese toys...
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