One of the really interesting ways to experience the hydraulics of a fast flowing river is to get in it with a mask and snorkle and go with the flow. You get to see fish and count beer cans. I've done this on the Clackamas River and made a serious discovery. There is a spot where the river crashes perpendiclarly into a big vertical rock wall. The water has to go somewhere, so it chooses to plunge directly down to the river bottom, then exits downstream along the rocky bed. I know this because I got trapped in it. As I discovered, the only way to survive this is to swim downwards with the current (not exactly instinctual) and eventually you pop up downstream. It's not possible to swim towards the surface alongside the headwall because the downward current is just too strong. That day was the closest I've ever come to drowning. A rafting party did encounter the same kind of situation on the same river some years later, and a young man perished. There is absolutely no warning for a rafter or kayaker that such a spot can be your last. There probably should be a danger sign. BRC *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Dec 20, 2007 9:45 AM, Bradford R. Crain <crainb_at_pdx.edu> wrote: > > There is a spot where the river crashes perpendiclarly into a big > vertical > rock wall. The water has to go somewhere, so it chooses to plunge directly > down to the river bottom, then exits downstream along the rocky bed. I > know > this because I got trapped in it. White water paddlers are all too familiar with vertical walls and (worse yet) overhangs or carve-outs. On the relatively benign Yakima River between Cle Elum and Thorpe there is a carved-out bank near the town of Thorpe just below the bridge leading to Cle Elum that can do a lot of harm to an unwary paddler. In a kayak you can get hung up against the wall and be unable to exit or roll or escape. One reason I have never been much of a creekboater; I am addicted to the saying: "If in doubt get out and scout". Craig Jungers Moses Lake, WA *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 12/20/2007 9:54:22 AM Pacific Standard Time, crainb_at_pdx.edu writes: One of the really interesting ways to experience the hydraulics of a fast flowing river is to get in it with a mask and snorkle and go with the flow. You get to see fish and count beer cans. I've done this on the Clackamas River and made a serious discovery. There is a spot where the river crashes perpendiclarly into a big vertical rock wall. The water has to go somewhere, so it chooses to plunge directly down to the river bottom, then exits downstream along the rocky bed. I know this because I got trapped in it. As I discovered, the only way to survive this is to swim downwards with the current (not exactly instinctual) and eventually you pop up downstream. It's not possible to swim towards the surface alongside the headwall because the downward current is just too strong. That day was the closest I've ever come to drowning. A rafting party did encounter the same kind of situation on the same river some years later, and a young man perished. There is absolutely no warning for a rafter or kayaker that such a spot can be your last. There probably should be a danger sign. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In my recent Out Of Boat Experience (OOBE) I was taken down to near the bottom twice before rescue. That really sucked. At times I'd be in an eddy and a vortex would just erupt underneath or nearby. Once while at the Skookumchuck race My Explorer and I were in a pretty grippy whirly. By the time it seemed I was neck deep, it looked like only the last foot or two of bow was the only bit out of water. I kinda thought, better do something. Whatever it was that I did probably had less effect than the whirly simply dying out on its own. One thing I do not like about whirlies is that when rolling the blade tends to bury really quickly and that upon emerging the boat edges also get buried fast causing that unique sensation we paddlers all know as squirrelyness. Cheers, Rob G **************************************See AOL's top rated recipes (http://food.aol.com/top-rated-recipes?NCID=aoltop00030000000004) *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
""...snip... upon emerging the boat edges also get buried fast causing that unique sensation we paddlers all know as squirrelyness. Cheers, Rob G" Yes, even us white water rafters get that on big rivers in big water. I remember well my 22 foot raft being twirled around and sucked under popping up and then watched my right tube submerge before being spit out down stream ... black side down. Seemed like forever...maybe 30 seconds to a minute at most. john santa rosa --------------------------------- Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Thu, Dec 20, 2007 at 09:45:36AM -0800, Bradford R. Crain wrote: > As I discovered, the only way to survive this is to swim downwards with > the current (not exactly instinctual) and eventually you pop up downstream. > It's not possible to swim towards the surface alongside the headwall because > the downward current is just too strong. What you encountered there is a hydraulic -- from your description, a particularly strong one, perhaps bordering on "terminal". And swimming downwards to exit (after other attempts, like trying to swim out one end or the other) is one of the ways to escape without assistance. I've been recirculated in them a few times (including in the above-mentioned Greyhound Bus Stopper) and have only had to resort to that once. It was...unpleasant. It was dark. My ears popped. And I came up about 50 yards downstream. On other occasions, "go around the cycle a few times and see what happens", "try to swim out one end" and "try making different shapes with your body" sufficed. I've yet to have to take off my PFD to escape one -- clearly a "last resort" choice I hope never to face. All novice whitewater paddlers are taught to look for these -- often using low-head dams as an example, since they're among the nastiest (because they're uniform, river-wide and symmetric). One of the key lessons that's sometimes tough to impart is that the innocuous-looking ones are often the worst, because the water's energy isn't being expended in making a splashy, gnarly-looking hole; it's being expended in strong, uniform, recirculating flow that can be lethal. Developing the judgement necessary to know which are fun play spots, which can be punched, and which must be avoided at all costs is one part of the learning process. And experienced paddlers learn -- from guidebooks, other paddlers, or first-hand experience if they're so unfortunate -- where those spots are. Every river paddler in the southeast US probably knows about Woodall Shoals on the Chattooga -- a class III drop *unless* you blunder into the hydraulic, in which case it's likely to be fatal. Same for the Brookmont Dam on the Potomac at DC, or the choice bit of mayhem in Labyrinth on the Deerfield in Massachusetts ("le petite mort", I believe it's called), or even friendly little Snap Falls on Muddy Creek in south-central Pennsylvania, which turns vicious at high water levels. Personally, I don't think these should be posted. Anyone who lacks the knowledge and experience to know about them and avoid them probably shouldn't be on the river. And if they *were* posted, then (given our litigious society) someone who was injured in an un-posted spot -- which just happened to be nasty that particular day because of water level -- could well make the argument that somebody else was negligent by not posting that spot as well. Heck, on some runs (like the "Miracle Mile" of the Meadow River in WV) there could be a sign every 50 feet warning of hydraulics, undercut rocks, boulder sieves...so no thanks. ---Rsk *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Dec 20, 2007 1:52 PM, Rich Kulawiec <rsk_at_rockandwater.net> wrote: > > Personally, I don't think these should be posted. Anyone who lacks > the knowledge and experience to know about them and avoid them probably > shouldn't be on the river. Even posting a warning doesn't work. On the otherwise innocent Yakima (often described as a Class I although I consider it a clear Class II) between Cle Elum and Thorpe just off I-90 about 70 miles east of Seattle there is an irrigation flume that occasionally dumps right into the river. Not always, just some of the time. When the flume is in operation there are huge signs on each side of the river about 1/2 mile and 1/4 mile upstream saying to the effect: WARNING - EXIT RIVER LEFT NOW. This spot can be navigated relatively safely river left but only by hugging the bank closely and I'm sure there are occasions when even this won't suffice. I *always* get out and scout it no matter that I've run this section with newbies dozens of times. And every time I stand on the bank across from the flume cascading into the river and sending froth all the way across I see rafters - all of them inexperienced and many of them drunk - blithely floating past the warning signs. Some of them pause to "play in the white water". Those are the ones they have to rescue. Every year a group gets caught in their raft under the flume, stripped of their clothes and dumped into white water that will neither float them or allow them to breathe. Almost none of them will be wearing their PFDs but the fact that they had them is demonstrated by their presence floating still in the eddy under the falls long after the victims are taken away. Every year a few die from this. Nothing will cure stupidity. Craig Jungers Moses Lake, WA *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> On Thu, Dec 20, 2007 at 09:45:36AM -0800, Bradford R. Crain wrote: >> As I discovered, the only way to survive this is to swim downwards with >> the current (not exactly instinctual) and eventually you pop up >> downstream. >> It's not possible to swim towards the surface alongside the headwall >> because >> the downward current is just too strong. Rich Kulawiec replied: > > What you encountered there is a hydraulic -- from your description, > a particularly strong one, perhaps bordering on "terminal". And swimming > downwards to exit (after other attempts, like trying to swim out one end > or the other) is one of the ways to escape without assistance. > > All novice whitewater paddlers are taught to look for these. Developing > the judgement > necessary to know which are fun play spots, which can be punched, and > which must be avoided at all costs is one part of the learning process. > > Personally, I don't think these should be posted. Anyone who lacks > the knowledge and experience to know about them and avoid them probably > shouldn't be on the river. Floating down the Clackamas River in summer is an urban show, with the ramps only a dozen or so miles from the city. It attracts many more recreational rafters and tubers than kayakers or canoeists, usually young and packing beer, noisy, etc. There is a general party atmosphere all summer. I believe the kayakers and canoeists generally recognize most of the dangers, such as strainers and rocks lurking just below the surface or above the surface. But I'll bet hardly any of them appreciate the hydraulics and dynamics laying below large vertical or overhanging rock formations, of which there are many. I know our white water canoe class never covered such things. Anyone can float down the Clackamas. There is no permit required, no fee, no training required, you don't even have to be sober, and many are not. There is a bit of a river patrol, but they are understaffed and generally focus on reducing noise, breaking up fights, and removing the most obvious drunks and people who use unacceptable language. In other words, accidents on the Clackamas are inevitable and fairly frequent. Amazingly, some of the casualties on the river couldn't swim. BRC *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
[ I've flipped the order of part your remarks so that (hopefully) my response will make more sense. Maybe. ;-) ] On Wed, Dec 20, 2006 at 03:28:05PM -0800, Brad Crain wrote: > I know our white water canoe class never covered such things. If your WW canoe class didn't include basic instruction on how to at least spot holes and understand their effects, then your WW canoe class was inadequate. One of the first things that I try to do with new WW paddlers is to get them to swim through a (quite benign) hole so that they get a visceral appreciation of it. Granted, beginner paddlers are probably not going to be capable of doing much more in a hole than "flip and swim", but by the time they get to be intermediates, they'll need to be able to show at least some boat control in friendly holes and know at least a couple ways to get out of them while still in their boats. And one of the things that I emphasize with intermediates is using river features (including holes) to execute maneuvers, for example, turning into a hole's backwash to initiate an upstream ferry. So for beginners, I think it's pretty important to prep them for all this by making sure they ample motivation to pay attention when I say things like "you really want to miss the hole on river left". > Floating down the Clackamas River in summer is an urban show, with the > ramps only a dozen or so miles from the city. It attracts many more > recreational rafters and tubers than kayakers or canoeists, usually > young and packing beer, noisy, etc. There is a general party atmosphere > all summer. I believe the kayakers and canoeists generally recognize > most of the dangers, such as strainers and rocks lurking just below the > surface or above the surface. But I'll bet hardly any of them appreciate > the hydraulics and dynamics laying below large vertical or overhanging > rock formations, of which there are many. [ quoting myself from another list late last week... ] Circa 1986, I was on the Gauley River in West Virginia...and along on the trip was a veteran, grizzled raft guide. We were all pretty busy trying not to be killed in nasty ways, so there wasn't a lot of time to admire the scenery -- which is spectacular. But in one of the brief pools, one of us happened to look up and notice people standing high above us on the edge of a cliff. No fence. No rail. Nothing. He asked the guide about it -- whether anyone had ever fallen off -- and the guide replied with one of the most profound statements I've ever heard anyone make about risk in outdoor sports: Dumbf**ks deserve to die. Of course, not everyone who dies while doing outdoor sports is stupid: some people do everything right and die anyway. But that's part of the activity: those who can't accept that possibility should stay on the couch. And those who stack the deck against themselves, by going out in bad conditions, or without appropriate knowledge, or without appropriate skills, or without decent equipment, or while intoxicated, etc., should have no complaint when nature takes its course and culls the herd. So I don't see a problem here that needs solving. Moreover -- having seen similar parades on other rivers (e.g., Delaware, Potomac, Shenandoah, Brandywine, etc.) I can safely guarantee you that putting up signs would have precisely zero effect on the behavior of the people most in need of having their behavior affected. (See above pithy comment by raft guide.) The most likely problem to emerge -- again, based on experience elsewhere -- is that ignorant local officials will react to The Latest Tragedy, whatever it is and whenever it happens (and never mind that the label "tragedy" doesn't really apply to an event in which stupid people try very hard to kill themselves and perhaps succeed), by trying to enact regulations ostensibly designed to stop The Next Tragedy, but having as their main result the inconveniencing of people who actually know what they're doing. A local example of this is the Lehigh River in NE Pennsylvania. The PA state park system closes off their access points to the river -- including one that's the only one for miles in either direction (Rockport) -- when it reaches a high enough level. They do this in order to avoid the costs of possible rescues as will as the legal liability. One byproduct of this is that people like me, who are competent to run the river at any level including well above flood stage, are barred as well. (Yes, I've run it anyway, and no doubt will do so again. Happily, when it's up that high, the intermediate access point isn't really needed, as it's possible to paddle the entire 20-mile-or-so White Haven to Jim Thorpe run in an afternonn without much trouble.) So...here is what will happen if signs/regulations/whatever are put in place: 1. The people who need to pay attention to them won't. 2. The people who don't need to pay attention to them will be needlessly annoyed and inconvenienced. 3. Eventually, some enterprising ambulance-chasing attorney will spot an opportunity and will file a multi-million dollar lawsuit whose premise is "officials knew of 17 hazards but only posted 16 and the lack of a sign at the 17th is why my idiot client hurt themself there" or "the sign marking the hazard was underwater during the 500-year-flood and therefore not visible to my idiot client, who chose that day to be on the river" or "the sign was written only in English, Spanish, French, German, Italian, and Japanese, but not Urdu" or other such premises. The ensuing litigation will chew up money and waste the court system's time. It will also provoke more signage/regulations as well as an increase in the cost of someone's liability coverage. It might also cause someone to set up a bureaucracy to issues "permits" (for a fee, of course), or which requires possession of "certifications" (issued by some entity, also for a fee, of course). Lather, rinse, repeat. ---Rsk *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Rich Kulawiec wrote: > On Wed, Dec 20, 2006 at 03:28:05PM -0800, Brad Crain wrote: >> I know our white water canoe class never covered such things. > > If your WW canoe class didn't include basic instruction on how to > at least spot holes and understand their effects, then your WW canoe > class was inadequate. One of the first things that I try to do with > new WW paddlers is to get them to swim through a (quite benign) hole so > that they get a visceral appreciation of it. Granted, beginner paddlers > are probably not going to be capable of doing much more in a hole than > "flip and swim", but by the time they get to be intermediates, they'll > need to be able to show at least some boat control in friendly > holes and know at least a couple ways to get out of them while still > in their boats. We always try to get our students surfing on their first river run. I tell them there are two reasons for surfing: (1) it's fun and (B) someday you'll end up in a hole and if you know how to surf, you might get out upright. I usually don't make beginners swim through holes, most of them manage that in their own before the day is over. Good to hear from you, Rich. Steve -- Steve Cramer Athens, GA http://www.savvypaddler.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Fri, Dec 21, 2007 at 11:24:56AM -0500, Steve Cramer wrote: > We always try to get our students surfing on their first river run. I tell > them there are two reasons for surfing: (1) it's fun and (B) someday you'll > end up in a hole and if you know how to surf, you might get out upright. I've tried that approach, too, and sometimes still use it. But mostly I go for the swim-through-it approach 'cause (a) it means I only need to chase them, not them + boat + paddle (b) I usually swim it first just so they know I'm not messing with them and (c) I worry that someone will try to brace upstream, chock a paddle blade against the rock forming the hole, try to brace on it, and dislocate a shoulder. So I figure if I take away their hoat and paddle, they've got fewer ways to get themselves in trouble. ;-) <chuckle> Of course (b) went wrong for me once when I "demonstrated" how to be recirculated due to my misjudgement of a normally-benign hole on a day when the water was just a few inches higher than previously. Serves me right. ;-) But it wasn't a dangerous situation, just an embarrassing one. > Good to hear from you, Rich. Likewise, Steve. Hope the drought lets up soon down there (we've been shy of rain as well, but not THAT badly). Now as to my own moments of blunt stupidity -- hmmm, so many to pick from. ;-) How about "traversing a very steep ice/snow-covered slope at 12,000 feet in the Rockies without crampons, ice axe, or clue"? ---Rsk *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I've commented before on what I think is the "Disneyland Complex" in which dumbf***s secretly believe that the world is a gigantic theme park and if they get hurt it's someone else's fault. Everyone on this list has ample examples of this, I suspect. Part of the problem is that an entire generation seems to think that everything is more fun while drunk. And I have to say that I think the popular media feeds into this. But we're not going to solve that problem here. Another big part of the problem is the bureaucratic tendency, as Rich said, to write a rule or pass a law whenever there is a problem. I watched this first hand when incompetent managers tried to stomp out any mistakes by writing a new regulation. By the time I left we had books of regulations no one read until there was another mistake; if there was already a regulation that covered it then the managers happily disciplined the hapless worker-bee. If there was not a regulation they wrote one. Pretty soon no one can do anything for fear of violating some rule. It doesn't take long for an organization to become hamstrung by its own rules. And it's not just government that does this. But we're not gonna solve that problem here either. What we can do is try to identify the dumf***s who might be able to learn and try to educate them. Happily there are probably more people doing that in this forum than in most. Including a few who have been doing it for 3 decades and more. Let me say to them, here and now, "thanks".I know that it's not easy and often thankless. Very often, in fact, people deride you when you try to help. Keep up the good work. When I led a Boy Scout troop (for ten years... another pretty much thankless task... I made it a point to deride stupidity and especially the stupidity of drugging oneself in the search for fun. I especially loved the guy who says, "Boy I was so wasted last night!" My response is always the same, "How long did it take you to learn how to do that?". It almost always results lin a long pause. None of my kids smoked because I harped on them, always with good humor, to not be so stupid they couldn't read the clear warnings actually written on the packs of cigarettes. And just how stupid is it to spend good money to consume a product that will not only make you smell like crap but kill you in the bargailn? Standing on the edge of a cliff, sitting a kid on a railing above the zoo's gorilla exhibit, and their like all deserve a good round of derision by the media and by individuals. The Darwin Awards do a lot for that, I think. I'm sure someone will sue them. Although we can all be stupid now and then, no one likes to be called stupid or be thought of as stupid. It's a powerful tool and used right, trying not to simply deride people for fun, it can produce results. Craig Jungers Moses Lake, WA *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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